A (very) alternate WW-I in early 1900s.

In early 1900s would been possible a great war between British Empire and French Empire with Germany to the said of UK and USA to the side of France,or this is pure ASB ?
 
are you saying that is it possible for a word war to begin before 1914 and if so then probaly not because austria needed a reason to attack serbia which it wouldnt have
 
Maybe the Fashoda Incident or some other colonial conflict escalates to a full-blown war, but these were mostly over by 1900 or so. Thos alliances are messed up though... I can see a British-German alliance if Germany does not invest in a significant navy, but the US on the side of France against the two most powerful countries of the day is completely impossible. Maybe the British-Venezualan border conflict escalates into a war between Britain and the US, and France joins in for British colonies while the Brits are distracted. Then Germany joins in because they see a golden oppertunity to take the French down a few notches while the French are distracted in the Americas and Africa. All of this is very unlikely, and all of it is only plausible in the late 1800s. After 1900, its pretty much impossible.
 
In early 1900s would been possible a great war between British Empire and French Empire with Germany to the said of UK and USA to the side of France,or this is pure ASB ?

lounge60

An Anglo-German alliance is quite possible with even a fairly late POD. However France's main ally was Russia and America was notoriously isolationist. As such there are two big problems.

a) Given that Austria would almost certainly be allied with Germany still and probably Japan and the Ottomans with the alliance its unlikely that war would break out as the blocs would be too uneven in strength. Neither France nor Russia is likely to want to start a war under those circumstances. However Britain, not wanting an expensive war and Germany, being a lot more secure with a British alliance are likely not to want a conflict either.

b) Getting the US involved in any conflict. This would be highly unlikely bar extreme stupidity on either the allied side or that of the US leadership. Apart the only thing that seems even vaguely possible might be some dispute over US trade with France during such a conflict, clashing with an allied blockage.

Therefore it would be difficult to get the situation unless you had some changes earlier on.

Only exception might be I think there was a dispute over Venezuelan debts in ~1902 which might have led to a conflict between Germany and Britain v the US if something nasty had happened. Then you might have France, almost certainly accompanied by Russia coming in on the American side. Probably with other powers getting drawn in, most likely Austria and Japan on the Anglo-German side if the war goes general.

Steve
 
Well, there is the Dogger Bank Incident. There are several TL's right here which propose a major European war starting from that mixup. It'd be basically Britain vs. Russia to start with, but then France might feel compelled to intervene on Russia's side, which might trigger German intervention. Not sure how Austria-Hungary and Italy would react at that point. This is before Bosnian annexation, so that particular Austro-Serbian flashpoint isn't there.
 
I have had similar thoughts along these lines.

How about this.

Tensions escalate between the US and Germany, Japan, and UK over recently captured Spanish colonies.

In 1904 the Japanese torpedo boat attack on the Russian Fleet transiting the English channel is exposed to the world when a Russian ship is struck by a torpedo. The Surviving ships retreat to a French port where the Japanese continue the attack, killing several French Civilians in the process.

Russia and France demand satisfaction that the British government cannot or will not give.

France declares war on the UK and Japan, Russian Declares war on UK.

German and Austria see there chance and declare war on Russia and France.

Italy stays neutral but is being courted by both sides.

Heavy handed RN actions against neutral American shipping causes resentment in the US.

Revolt breaks out in Ireland and is brutally put down.

Irish Americans are out ranged and flexing there new political clout make war with UK an election issue, the price of their support is war the the UK.

New American president and congress declare war on UK, Japan, Germany, and Austria.

Italy Joins the US, French, Russian, Alliance,

Spain declares war on the US, France, and Russia, and is immediately crushed.

Turkey remains neutral.
 
I think the US's complete lack of interest in events outside of the Western Hemisphere is a major problem in getting the US in the war from the start. Unless someone starts sinking US ships, the US isn't joining any European war. Thats why I think it's much more likely if it starts out a a US-UK conflict and spreads to Europe afterwards.
 
The Dogger Bank Incident would be your best bet. But a island vs continental nations war would be a more likely result(UK,JAP vs GER, FRA , RUS)
 
I have had similar thoughts along these lines.

How about this.

Tensions escalate between the US and Germany, Japan, and UK over recently captured Spanish colonies.

There was tension between Germany and America and Japan was worried about an American presence so close to their supply lines when tension over US immigration policy was rising. However very unlikely either would result in a war and if it did Britain wouldn't be involved.

In 1904 the Japanese torpedo boat attack on the Russian Fleet transiting the English channel is exposed to the world when a Russian ship is struck by a torpedo. The Surviving ships retreat to a French port where the Japanese continue the attack, killing several French Civilians in the process.

:confused::confused::confused: What! This would be ASB. You can get a war by Britain responding more strongly to the irrational Russian attack on the British trawlers but not the Japanese operating forces so far from their bases to no purpose.

Also this is 6 years after your 1st point so highly unlikely anything would relate the two.


Russia and France demand satisfaction that the British government cannot or will not give.

France declares war on the UK and Japan, Russian Declares war on UK.

German and Austria see there chance and declare war on Russia and France.

Italy stays neutral but is being courted by both sides.

Heavy handed RN actions against neutral American shipping causes resentment in the US.

The last is a possible force of tension but not likely to be major in the short term, especially if there are French attempts to use submarine warfare. Also its likely that the conflict in Europe would be resolved before any tension with America reaches boiling point. Russia is already struggling against Japan and on the verge of internal revolt when it suddenly finds itself at war with Germany and Britain! France is also very vulnerable, especially if moblising for a colonial war when caught off guard by a German attack.

Revolt breaks out in Ireland and is brutally put down.
Why and how:confused: Britain had gone a very long way towards appeasing the Irish Catholic community and there was a lot less tension. If extremists try something at this point their likely to get stomped by their own community.

Irish Americans are out ranged and flexing there new political clout make war with UK an election issue, the price of their support is war the the UK.

The more extreme parts of the Irish American community are likely to cause problems if they can, but you vastly over-estimate their position. America is not going to pick a fight with its biggest trading partner and investor without a very big incentive and their no where near enough.
New American president and congress declare war on UK, Japan, Germany, and Austria.

Italy Joins the US, French, Russian, Alliance,

Spain declares war on the US, France, and Russia, and is immediately crushed.

Turkey remains neutral.

I doubt if Spain would join the conflict but if it did who would do the crushing?

Italy might join the entente powers but given their vulnerability to naval power their more likely to go the other way if they come off the fence.

Turkey might stay neutral but is far more likely to join the Anglo-German alliance. Both are close allies with with, the British for a long time, and Russia is its traditional ally and already struggling against the Japanese before things blew up.

Steve
 
I think the US's complete lack of interest in events outside of the Western Hemisphere is a major problem in getting the US in the war from the start. Unless someone starts sinking US ships, the US isn't joining any European war. Thats why I think it's much more likely if it starts out a a US-UK conflict and spreads to Europe afterwards.

Agree. Something like one of the Venezeluan crisis giving the US a claim that Britain is interferring in its hemisphere is about the only likely way. Might be tension over British action in blockading US trade in a European conflict but there are legal rules over that and hence also procedures for resolving them.

With another power the concern that an Anglo-German alliance will knock over the Franco-Russian bloc and dominate too much of the world would be a concern. However the lack of interest in the wider diplomatic world and poor readiness of the US for intervention conflict means this would be virtually impossible with the US.

Steve
 
Well, there is the Dogger Bank Incident. There are several TL's right here which propose a major European war starting from that mixup. It'd be basically Britain vs. Russia to start with, but then France might feel compelled to intervene on Russia's side, which might trigger German intervention. Not sure how Austria-Hungary and Italy would react at that point. This is before Bosnian annexation, so that particular Austro-Serbian flashpoint isn't there.

Joe

It might be that France is required to come in on behaviour of its only significant ally. Or feels that it must do so or lose both face and any influence.

I think that Austria occupied Bosnia in ~1878 but only formally annexed it in 1908. As such might be tension there already with Serbia. At an earlier point Serbia had been an Austrian puppet but I think that had gone by now. However Austria and Germany were already allied and concerned about the Franco-Russian alliance. Whether they decide its best to intervene now or let their economic rivals wear each other out would be anyone's guess.

I can't see any real way of getting America in, especially on the French side, unless something really wild happened. There might be tension over a British blockade of France interfering with US arms sales but then not sure how big the US arms industry was at the time anyway. Unless you got something where shots were fired in some clash but even then its more in both sides interests to find a peaceful solution to the crisis.

Steve
 
Top