Is it possible that the Union could sieze gun powder in Canada? Didn't something similar happen during the Revolutionary War (siezing armaries)?
A USN victory against the British in 1862 (or Tielhard has been doing Trent again)
- Thread starter Tielhard
- Start date
I didn't realise that gunpowder was such a problem for the US during the Civil War. I've read dozens of books on the US Civil War and I don't remember any mention of that as a problem, at least not for the US.
The powder shortage puts things in a different light - I assumed that the US was pretty much self-sufficient as far as any raw materials needed for war were concerned.
The powder shortage puts things in a different light - I assumed that the US was pretty much self-sufficient as far as any raw materials needed for war were concerned.
Tielhard
Banned
Paul Spring,
No the Union have lots of problems with resources. For example:
No significant saltpetre (they do have some low grade NaNO3 however) or sulphur (sulfur) and by extension gunpowder.
They import a significant fraction of thier rail stock, rail iron and pig iron.
They produce almost no steel.
They can't roll iron thicker than 2 1/4"
They have almost no iron sailing ship industry.
They can't produce enough guns (rifle-muskets) for the small army they do have.
USA's agriculture is heavily dependent on imported guano, seagull shit to the cognosenti.
No the Union have lots of problems with resources. For example:
No significant saltpetre (they do have some low grade NaNO3 however) or sulphur (sulfur) and by extension gunpowder.
They import a significant fraction of thier rail stock, rail iron and pig iron.
They produce almost no steel.
They can't roll iron thicker than 2 1/4"
They have almost no iron sailing ship industry.
They can't produce enough guns (rifle-muskets) for the small army they do have.
USA's agriculture is heavily dependent on imported guano, seagull shit to the cognosenti.
67th Tigers
Banned
Essentially, all the disadvantages the CS had get transplanted onto the US. I wonder whether the population would tolerate it.
Tielhard
Banned
I thought this may be of some interest to the cognoscenti?
Western Coast of North America
List of Royal Navy ships on the Pacific Station known to the US Navy May 29, 1862:
1. Bacchante, 51 guns, steam frigate
2. Topaze, 51 guns, steam frigate
3. Termagant, 25 guns, steam frigate
4. Clio, 22 guns, steam corvette
5. Charybdis, 21 guns, steam corvette
6. Cameleon, 17 guns, steam sloop
7. Mutine, 17 guns, steam sloop
8. Hecate, 6 guns, steam sloop
9. Devastation, 6 guns, steam sloop
10. Nereus, 6 guns, storeship
11. Naiad, 6 guns, storeship
12. Grappler, gunboat
13. Forward, gunboat
Some of these ships were sent from India and China in response to the Trent affair. This suggests that there are more ships at Esquimalt as the normal complement there was around 12. There may also be other ships at Valparaiso which is still the main British fleet base in the Pacific until mid-year,
Quotation from Flag-Officer Charles Bell officer commanding USN Pacific Squadron on Lancaster at Mare Island, SF reporting to Gideon Wells Secretary of the USA’s Navy:
“In the present state of the defences of this harbour (San Francisco)
one-half of this force could command the city of San Francisco and take
possession of this yard (Mare Island).”
At this time I have been able to ascertain that the number of guns defending the masonry three tire fort at Fort Point to be 51 many of a smaller calibre. I have been unable to determine how many guns, if any defend Alcatraz nor the number of guns in the smaller emplacement across the bay
List of French warships on the Pacific Station known to the US Navy, May 29, 1862:
1, Le vainqueur Le Dugnay, croisier steamer
2. L’avis Le Cassini, screw
3. La corvette La Bayonnaise
4. La corvette La Galathie
5. La corvette La Cornblie
6. L’avis Le Diarnant, screw
7. Lamothe Piquet, screw
At this time several of these French ships were engaged in blockading
Mexican ports between Guaymas to Acapulco.
Mexican Intervention
Quotation from Captain Powell officer commanding USS Potomac at Vera Cruz, Mexico reporting to Gideon Wells Secretary of the USA’s Navy:
“I had an interview with Commodore Dunlop, who commands the
British forces, ashore as well as afloat. Almost his first words touched
upon the vital point of interest between us. He said that happily the
threatened danger of hostilities had passed away; he was glad to see me
here, “ for,” said he, with the utmost frankness, “when I came down here
I confidently expected that in ten days I should have had my squadron
operating against you on the coast.” This acknowledgment will not
fail to convey to you two weighty facts—first, that the contingent war
orders had been given to the British naval chiefs; secondly, that the
assemblage of the fleet at Vera Cruz, as against Mexico, was only a
cover to the real purpose, to wit, a convenient basis of hostilities
against our line of blockade, the western end of which is only three
days’ sail from Vera Cruz.”
Naval forces at Vera Cruz known to the USN as at 19 Feb. 1862.
British
1. Sans Pareil, screw ship of the line
2. Donegal, screw ship of the line
3. Mersey, screw
4. An unknown of 50 guns
5. Ariadne
6. Challenger
7-16 Some ten others of inferior ratings, all screw ships
By 30 March
Phaeton was sent some ten days previous to the mouth of the Rio Grande.
There remain at Vera Cruz:
1. Mersey, screw
2. Challenger, screw
3. Jason, screw
4. Desperate, screw
5. Barracuda, side-wheel
6-? Some screw gunboats
French
Smaller fleet than the British but still several ships only one identified:
1. Massena, screw ship of the line
By 30 March
Berthollet 6, side-wheel was sent some ten days previous to the mouth of the Rio Grande.
1. An unknown, 100
2. Turenne, 100 but disarmed used as troop ship 1,100 on board
3. Astrea, first class screw frigate
4. Foudre, first class screw frigate
5. Guerriere, first class screw frigate
6-? several smaller vessels.
Spanish
Smaller in numbers and not identified
Western Coast of North America
List of Royal Navy ships on the Pacific Station known to the US Navy May 29, 1862:
1. Bacchante, 51 guns, steam frigate
2. Topaze, 51 guns, steam frigate
3. Termagant, 25 guns, steam frigate
4. Clio, 22 guns, steam corvette
5. Charybdis, 21 guns, steam corvette
6. Cameleon, 17 guns, steam sloop
7. Mutine, 17 guns, steam sloop
8. Hecate, 6 guns, steam sloop
9. Devastation, 6 guns, steam sloop
10. Nereus, 6 guns, storeship
11. Naiad, 6 guns, storeship
12. Grappler, gunboat
13. Forward, gunboat
Some of these ships were sent from India and China in response to the Trent affair. This suggests that there are more ships at Esquimalt as the normal complement there was around 12. There may also be other ships at Valparaiso which is still the main British fleet base in the Pacific until mid-year,
Quotation from Flag-Officer Charles Bell officer commanding USN Pacific Squadron on Lancaster at Mare Island, SF reporting to Gideon Wells Secretary of the USA’s Navy:
“In the present state of the defences of this harbour (San Francisco)
one-half of this force could command the city of San Francisco and take
possession of this yard (Mare Island).”
At this time I have been able to ascertain that the number of guns defending the masonry three tire fort at Fort Point to be 51 many of a smaller calibre. I have been unable to determine how many guns, if any defend Alcatraz nor the number of guns in the smaller emplacement across the bay
List of French warships on the Pacific Station known to the US Navy, May 29, 1862:
1, Le vainqueur Le Dugnay, croisier steamer
2. L’avis Le Cassini, screw
3. La corvette La Bayonnaise
4. La corvette La Galathie
5. La corvette La Cornblie
6. L’avis Le Diarnant, screw
7. Lamothe Piquet, screw
At this time several of these French ships were engaged in blockading
Mexican ports between Guaymas to Acapulco.
Mexican Intervention
Quotation from Captain Powell officer commanding USS Potomac at Vera Cruz, Mexico reporting to Gideon Wells Secretary of the USA’s Navy:
“I had an interview with Commodore Dunlop, who commands the
British forces, ashore as well as afloat. Almost his first words touched
upon the vital point of interest between us. He said that happily the
threatened danger of hostilities had passed away; he was glad to see me
here, “ for,” said he, with the utmost frankness, “when I came down here
I confidently expected that in ten days I should have had my squadron
operating against you on the coast.” This acknowledgment will not
fail to convey to you two weighty facts—first, that the contingent war
orders had been given to the British naval chiefs; secondly, that the
assemblage of the fleet at Vera Cruz, as against Mexico, was only a
cover to the real purpose, to wit, a convenient basis of hostilities
against our line of blockade, the western end of which is only three
days’ sail from Vera Cruz.”
Naval forces at Vera Cruz known to the USN as at 19 Feb. 1862.
British
1. Sans Pareil, screw ship of the line
2. Donegal, screw ship of the line
3. Mersey, screw
4. An unknown of 50 guns
5. Ariadne
6. Challenger
7-16 Some ten others of inferior ratings, all screw ships
By 30 March
Phaeton was sent some ten days previous to the mouth of the Rio Grande.
There remain at Vera Cruz:
1. Mersey, screw
2. Challenger, screw
3. Jason, screw
4. Desperate, screw
5. Barracuda, side-wheel
6-? Some screw gunboats
French
Smaller fleet than the British but still several ships only one identified:
1. Massena, screw ship of the line
By 30 March
Berthollet 6, side-wheel was sent some ten days previous to the mouth of the Rio Grande.
1. An unknown, 100
2. Turenne, 100 but disarmed used as troop ship 1,100 on board
3. Astrea, first class screw frigate
4. Foudre, first class screw frigate
5. Guerriere, first class screw frigate
6-? several smaller vessels.
Spanish
Smaller in numbers and not identified
67th Tigers
Banned
Putting Baccante into the search engine (of the ORs), I find the report on the Pacific station is dated 29 May 1862. This probably explains the fact that it appears small, it's contracted back to peacetime size.
It's worth mentioning that DuPont did solve the powder problem, but the nitrate sources was Guano again. Post war the US became the only competitor to the UK in the Saltpetre trade.
It's also worth mentioning that although rifles were scarce, the pre-war US held over half a million .69 smoothbore muskets (plus 24,000 modern rifle muskets and about 50,000 older rifles). About 90% of these weapons were held by the north.
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-....edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0122
Springfield was (after 6 months to build new lines etc.) producing 10,000 rifle muskets a month.
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-....edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0122
Thus were can esimate US holdings of infantry rifles were:
c. 480,000 .69 Muskets
c. 45,000 .54 Rifles
c. 5,000 .58 Rifles
c. 75,000 .58 Rifle Muskets
Hence the desperate attempts to buy modern weapons from Europe, the Union could supply muskets, but not rifled ones.
PS
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-....edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0122
The "first class cavalry carbine" the English use is a breachloader....
It's worth mentioning that DuPont did solve the powder problem, but the nitrate sources was Guano again. Post war the US became the only competitor to the UK in the Saltpetre trade.
It's also worth mentioning that although rifles were scarce, the pre-war US held over half a million .69 smoothbore muskets (plus 24,000 modern rifle muskets and about 50,000 older rifles). About 90% of these weapons were held by the north.
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-....edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0122
Springfield was (after 6 months to build new lines etc.) producing 10,000 rifle muskets a month.
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-....edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0122
Thus were can esimate US holdings of infantry rifles were:
c. 480,000 .69 Muskets
c. 45,000 .54 Rifles
c. 5,000 .58 Rifles
c. 75,000 .58 Rifle Muskets
Hence the desperate attempts to buy modern weapons from Europe, the Union could supply muskets, but not rifled ones.
PS
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-....edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0122
The "first class cavalry carbine" the English use is a breachloader....
67th Tigers
Banned
Of possible interest, a photo of HMS Terror, the only ironclad (in fact iron ship) in American waters until March 1862:
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/warships/vessel.asp?id=10177
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/warships/vessel.asp?id=10177
Tielhard
Banned
British Empire Forces in Australia at the time of the Trent Affair
Tigers,
I think you may have underestimated the number of troops the British have stashed away in Australia. Certainly enough to discourage the odd raid in the style of that fine Scots seaman John Paul Jones. More than enough for the second line in San Francisco.
British Empire Forces in Australia at the time of the Trent Affair
Imperial Troops
Royal Marines
Detachment at Cape York, Queensland 1862 - 1870.[7]
Royal Artillery
3 Company, 7 Battalion stationed at Sydney 1856 - 1865. [5]
1 Battery, 15 Brigade stationed at Melbourne 1861 - 1866 or 8. [1,5]
Infantry
1st/12th Regiment of Foot (East Suffolk)[a] detachments at Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide
1857- 1859/60 or 66. [2,4,7]
2nd/65th (2nd Yorkshire West Riding) stationed at Sydney 1846–1865. [7]
Other Info.
In the 1860s the headquarters of the Australia and New Zealand military command was at Melbourne. [1]
In the early 1860s Melbourne was also the headquarters of the Royal Navy's Australia Station. [1]
New South Wales
Volunteers raised 1860 (Name of regiment uncertain may have been 1st or 2nd Regiment of New South Wales Rifles)
One troop mounted rifles (converted to artillery 1862)
Three batteries of artillery
Twenty companies of infantry
Establishment 1700 in 1860
Victoria
Army
Melbourne Volunteer Rifle Regiment (later became the Victorian Volunteer Artillery Regiment)
Establishment 4002 in 1860 when they took over garrison duties from Imperial forces sent to fight the Maori
There also appears to have been a regiment of Mounted Rifles and the Victorian Rangers an infantry regiment but these formations may pre- or post- date the Trent Affair.
Navy
Steam corvette HMVS* Victoria built (Limehouse London, 1855) [3,1]
*Her Majesty's Victorian Ship
Queensland
Troop of Mounted Rifles formed March 1860.
South Australia
Small volunteer force raised 1861
Tasmania
Two batteries of volunteer artillery and twelve companies of volunteer infantry raised in 1859.
Western Australia
Formed some sort of volunteer forces in 1861 . [3]
There was also a reserve unit of Enrolled Military Pensioners that served in Western Australia 1850 - 1880. The unit was made up of men from the military, who had retired or had been pensioned out of service. [6]
References
Unless noted otherwise all information taken from Extract from Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of Australia, 1908 (ABS cat. no. 1301.0) on Australian Bureaux of Statistics website
[1] Defending Victoria website
[2] Australia’s Red Coat Regiments website
[3] Australians fighting New Zealanders_ The Maori Wars website
[4] The (Royal) Marines & the British Army in Australia from 1788 to 1913 website
[5] The British Army in Australia 1788 to 1870 website
[6] Enrolled Military Pensioners Unit of Western Australia website
[7] Proformat - British Regiments in the colonies website
Footnotes
[a] There is some uncertainty as to whether the East Suffolks left in Australia in 1859 or 1860 or 1867 but as there is an anecdote in one website which discusses an incident in 1862 where “Ensign Campbell and Sergeant O'Grady of the 12th were themselves the victims of a bushranger who held up a mail coach in the west of New South Wales.” [4] It is safe to say they were there during the Trent Affair.
Tigers,
I think you may have underestimated the number of troops the British have stashed away in Australia. Certainly enough to discourage the odd raid in the style of that fine Scots seaman John Paul Jones. More than enough for the second line in San Francisco.
British Empire Forces in Australia at the time of the Trent Affair
Imperial Troops
Royal Marines
Detachment at Cape York, Queensland 1862 - 1870.[7]
Royal Artillery
3 Company, 7 Battalion stationed at Sydney 1856 - 1865. [5]
1 Battery, 15 Brigade stationed at Melbourne 1861 - 1866 or 8. [1,5]
Infantry
1st/12th Regiment of Foot (East Suffolk)[a] detachments at Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide
1857- 1859/60 or 66. [2,4,7]
2nd/65th (2nd Yorkshire West Riding) stationed at Sydney 1846–1865. [7]
Other Info.
In the 1860s the headquarters of the Australia and New Zealand military command was at Melbourne. [1]
In the early 1860s Melbourne was also the headquarters of the Royal Navy's Australia Station. [1]
New South Wales
Volunteers raised 1860 (Name of regiment uncertain may have been 1st or 2nd Regiment of New South Wales Rifles)
One troop mounted rifles (converted to artillery 1862)
Three batteries of artillery
Twenty companies of infantry
Establishment 1700 in 1860
Victoria
Army
Melbourne Volunteer Rifle Regiment (later became the Victorian Volunteer Artillery Regiment)
Establishment 4002 in 1860 when they took over garrison duties from Imperial forces sent to fight the Maori
There also appears to have been a regiment of Mounted Rifles and the Victorian Rangers an infantry regiment but these formations may pre- or post- date the Trent Affair.
Navy
Steam corvette HMVS* Victoria built (Limehouse London, 1855) [3,1]
*Her Majesty's Victorian Ship
Queensland
Troop of Mounted Rifles formed March 1860.
South Australia
Small volunteer force raised 1861
Tasmania
Two batteries of volunteer artillery and twelve companies of volunteer infantry raised in 1859.
Western Australia
Formed some sort of volunteer forces in 1861 . [3]
There was also a reserve unit of Enrolled Military Pensioners that served in Western Australia 1850 - 1880. The unit was made up of men from the military, who had retired or had been pensioned out of service. [6]
References
Unless noted otherwise all information taken from Extract from Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of Australia, 1908 (ABS cat. no. 1301.0) on Australian Bureaux of Statistics website
[1] Defending Victoria website
[2] Australia’s Red Coat Regiments website
[3] Australians fighting New Zealanders_ The Maori Wars website
[4] The (Royal) Marines & the British Army in Australia from 1788 to 1913 website
[5] The British Army in Australia 1788 to 1870 website
[6] Enrolled Military Pensioners Unit of Western Australia website
[7] Proformat - British Regiments in the colonies website
Footnotes
[a] There is some uncertainty as to whether the East Suffolks left in Australia in 1859 or 1860 or 1867 but as there is an anecdote in one website which discusses an incident in 1862 where “Ensign Campbell and Sergeant O'Grady of the 12th were themselves the victims of a bushranger who held up a mail coach in the west of New South Wales.” [4] It is safe to say they were there during the Trent Affair.
67th Tigers
Banned
Australia was rated a Brigade command. In 1863 (slightly later) the staff were:
Commanding the Troops in Australia: Brig Gen Trevor Chute, half pay, 70th Foot (appointed Mar 63, so not the Brig then), HQ at Melbourne
ADC: vacant
Brigade Major: Capt W. Haywood, 14th Foot (since Jan 61)
The governors of NSW and Vic have a Military Sec each (Capt Lord Taylour, 85th and Capt Bancroft, 16th resp.), whilst WA has another "Commanding the Forces" tpe, Lt Col J Bruce, half pay, 56th Foot. SA and Qld have no direct military command.
Tasmania was a separate command.
However, I recently read in a RUSI paper concerning a possible war between the US and UK about a decade later that California was the target of "British and Sikh Troops from India". Although no figures. I'd guess a similar effort to China, an Army Corps.
Commanding the Troops in Australia: Brig Gen Trevor Chute, half pay, 70th Foot (appointed Mar 63, so not the Brig then), HQ at Melbourne
ADC: vacant
Brigade Major: Capt W. Haywood, 14th Foot (since Jan 61)
The governors of NSW and Vic have a Military Sec each (Capt Lord Taylour, 85th and Capt Bancroft, 16th resp.), whilst WA has another "Commanding the Forces" tpe, Lt Col J Bruce, half pay, 56th Foot. SA and Qld have no direct military command.
Tasmania was a separate command.
However, I recently read in a RUSI paper concerning a possible war between the US and UK about a decade later that California was the target of "British and Sikh Troops from India". Although no figures. I'd guess a similar effort to China, an Army Corps.
67th Tigers
Banned
The 2/65th?
The 65th (they only have 1 full Bn) are in NZ, the 2/65th is probably a 2-4 Coy depot of the type in fashion at the time (a Bn had an establishment for 12 Coys, and normally left 2 at home. Occassionally they took all 12 and formed ad hoc "reserve Bns" and recruited locals instead).
Similarly, the 1/12th is in NZ too.
By 1863, a full Division of Infantry was in NZ, culled from the previous garrison of Australia (1 Bde) and reinforcements from India (the other Bde), with 2 Btys of field guns, but they're busy fighting the Maori.
The 65th (they only have 1 full Bn) are in NZ, the 2/65th is probably a 2-4 Coy depot of the type in fashion at the time (a Bn had an establishment for 12 Coys, and normally left 2 at home. Occassionally they took all 12 and formed ad hoc "reserve Bns" and recruited locals instead).
Similarly, the 1/12th is in NZ too.
By 1863, a full Division of Infantry was in NZ, culled from the previous garrison of Australia (1 Bde) and reinforcements from India (the other Bde), with 2 Btys of field guns, but they're busy fighting the Maori.
Tielhard
Banned
1/12th NOT in New Zealand at time of putatative Trent war at least not all of it. See footnote in previous. Seems to be considerable agreement by the websites I looked at they get to NZ later.
Waikato war does not KO until July 1863 and the British don't go up against the Meremere line until after that. I Taranaki is over in 1861 mid year?
As to 2/65th I have no idea, as I said sources are at least tertiary.
Waikato war does not KO until July 1863 and the British don't go up against the Meremere line until after that. I Taranaki is over in 1861 mid year?
As to 2/65th I have no idea, as I said sources are at least tertiary.
67th Tigers
Banned
See http://hicketypip.tripod.com/history.htm
In Jan 1862, the regiments in NZ were:
1/12th, 2/14th, 40th, 57th "Die-Hards", 65th "Royal Tigers"
Reinforced with the following for the Waikato War:
2/18 "Royal Irish", 43rd "Oxfordshire Light Infantry", 50th, 68th "Durham Light Infantry" (in 1864) and 70th
Final total 10 Regiment in 3 Brigades
In Jan 1862, the regiments in NZ were:
1/12th, 2/14th, 40th, 57th "Die-Hards", 65th "Royal Tigers"
Reinforced with the following for the Waikato War:
2/18 "Royal Irish", 43rd "Oxfordshire Light Infantry", 50th, 68th "Durham Light Infantry" (in 1864) and 70th
Final total 10 Regiment in 3 Brigades
Tielhard
Banned
1) I'm pretty sure the 1/12 are not there (NZ) in Jan 1862 I think they are in Australia.
2) If the Durham Light Infantry are in NZ in 1864 were they in the UK for thier usual strike breaking/riot control activities during a Trent Affair war? If not who would get sent to crush opposition to the war in Salford/Manchester? They are not going to send the Yeomanry after Peterloo.
3) Incidentally which regiment's line did Maniapoto break at Orakau Pa? Unrelated question.
2) If the Durham Light Infantry are in NZ in 1864 were they in the UK for thier usual strike breaking/riot control activities during a Trent Affair war? If not who would get sent to crush opposition to the war in Salford/Manchester? They are not going to send the Yeomanry after Peterloo.
3) Incidentally which regiment's line did Maniapoto break at Orakau Pa? Unrelated question.
67th Tigers
Banned
1. Have to check, however, it seems the 1/12th was penny packeted out as Coy detachments in 1860, 1 Coy at Adelaide, 2 in NZ etc., and finally concentrated in NZ in 1862. The main body of troops and the RHQ was in Australia until 1860 when it moved to NZ, leaving a few small detachments behind to train the Australian Colonial Militias.
2. Whoever there was, any regular or militia unit could have done it. The DLI didn't make a particular habit of it, only once (in Bradford in 1891) were the regiment so employed.
3. 40th
67th Tigers
Banned
Not big on Light Division history. Forward the 67th! We're some Southern Women to violate to give the CS Causus Belli against us...