I have been busy on my new story, but I was wondering what it would take to have Ireland stay united and to have a united Ireland remain a part of Great Britain, and still be a part of GB today? Also, would a United Kingdom that includes all of Ireland keep Great Britain stronger longer than OTL?
A United Ireland as Part of Great Britain
- Thread starter Tank Cdr
- Start date
That glib response isn't necessarily wrong. A more humane response to the Faminie might have dramatically improved relations.
Alternatively have Catholic emancipation a lot sooner.
Alternatively have Catholic emancipation a lot sooner.
I don't want to doubt you, but I cannot believe it is that simple. The Irish seemed VERY sure that they wanted to break from Great Britain and it seemed like a pretty deep hatred.
Having Ireland as part of the UK might be achievable. Having it as part of Great Britain would need some fairly impressive tectonic shifting.
(If you want a real answer, Catholic Emancipation in 1800 would have helped a lot.)
I am assuming if you can prevent King James from breaking with the Catholic Church, that would help a lot?!? That might be a good POD.
It's not actually that difficult- indeed, perhaps even more likely than what we ended up with IOTL. The best way is probably getting Gladstone to adopt the Chamberlainite proposals for "Home Rule All Round" in 1887; failing that, simply have Gavrillo Princip trip over his own shoelaces in August 1914 and by the time a general European war starts a few years later, the UK should have implemented and consolidated the Third Home Rule Act.
A third, and nastier, option, is to have the British Government not go wobbly in the summer of 1921; the IRA were about to run out of ammunition when the truce in July rescued them, after all. But that's not likely to be a wonderfully pleasant TL, especially if, to save resources, Trenchard convinces Lloyd George to use Ireland as the test case for aerial counter-insurgency rather than Iraq...
The movements towards Catholic emancipation and equal Union status with Scotland in the late 18th century being accepted by the British government would probably work. The majority of those involved characterised themselves as "loyal opposition" and just wanted a change in the status quo while remaining British. The extremist republicans, however - allies of the French Republic - scared the British government and caused them to crack down on the whole idea. A PoD of the Irish Republicans being less noticeable would probably do it. Though in that timeline we'd probably see people in Ireland (as well as or instead of people in Scotland) jostling to become independent in the present day.
What time fram are we talking about anyway? I mean a very early POD could create a "United Kingdom of the British Isles" of some description relatively easily.
If we are talking with something reminiscent of OTL and an earlier POD I agree that Catholic Emancipation and the prevention of the Potato Famine are clearly places to start.
But bear in mind the difference to the world, less immigration, different Navies and much higher populated Ireland.
If we are talking with something reminiscent of OTL and an earlier POD I agree that Catholic Emancipation and the prevention of the Potato Famine are clearly places to start.
But bear in mind the difference to the world, less immigration, different Navies and much higher populated Ireland.
I'm actually wondering how different the present day would look now, especially with the later PODs. Given Irish affinity on both sides of the Atlantic, the "Celtic Tiger" phenomenon, and general culture in the republic, the little things erased or subsumed in a general British culture would probably be more interested than expected initially.
Also, the idea of using counterinsurgency tactics on a white European people will have really nasty attitude effects on Britain down the road...
Also, the idea of using counterinsurgency tactics on a white European people will have really nasty attitude effects on Britain down the road...
Thande
Donor
It would be hard, undoubtedly: Irish nationalism goes back a long way. One thing that would help a LOT is if Pitt the Younger was able to secure Catholic Emancipation in 1801 as part of the Act of Union, as was his intention. Unfortunately George III in OTL was against Catholic Emancipation because he viewed it as being in violation of his coronation oath to protect the Anglican faith (exclusively).
If pulled off properly, this could perhaps set up the idea that "England/Britain mistreated Ireland when they were separate, but when the two joined, the Irish were finally treated as equal to mainland Britons'. Wouldn't get rid of Irish nationalism altogether of course, but that's probably your best bet for keeping the British Isles united under a single state.
If pulled off properly, this could perhaps set up the idea that "England/Britain mistreated Ireland when they were separate, but when the two joined, the Irish were finally treated as equal to mainland Britons'. Wouldn't get rid of Irish nationalism altogether of course, but that's probably your best bet for keeping the British Isles united under a single state.
Alternately, you could prevent the 1801 Act of Union from happening. When the Potato Famine goes nasty, the Protestant Ascendancy ruling class of Ireland are blamed as the scapegoats, and the country is taken into the union with much better treatment.
For yet another option, just get Home Rule to go through under Gladstone.
For yet another option, just get Home Rule to go through under Gladstone.
If Henry VIII didn't break with Catholic Church the relgious differences would be removed aleast for a while. Successful platations in Munster and Laois-Offaly and a continuation of them would also do the trick if they got enough. Anyway to have more Protestants then Catholics will do it I would think.
Of course, if they keep to the same property qualifications, very few Catholics would be able to vote anyway (at least right away), thus placating the Dastardly High-Church Elite(TM).
mowque
Banned
Of course, if they keep to the same property qualifications, very few Catholics would be able to vote anyway (at least right away), thus placating the Dastardly High-Church Elite(TM).
Actually their OTL name, The Ascendency, is pretty cool.
Thande
Donor
Of course, if they keep to the same property qualifications, very few Catholics would be able to vote anyway (at least right away), thus placating the Dastardly High-Church Elite(TM).
The issue was often used with more sense of principle than that (in Great Britain as well to some extent). It was basically a tug-of-war between idealists ("if you let Catholics/Nonconformists have rights under the law, they'll start thinking they have a right to exist, the law must reflect the ideal that all our subjects should be members of the state church") and realists ("We're never going to have total religious conformity, so let's at least try to ensure the Catholics and Nonconformists look up to their crown and state rather than seeing it as an oppressor and becoming a potential fifth column").
It wasn't just about keeping Catholics away from political power--it was a question that went to the heart of constitutional issues about the role of the church in the state and vice-versa.