A United Ireland: A new TL

Germaniac

Donor
A United Ireland

Indeed another “plastic paddy” as so many like saying, a term I find rather offensive, making another united Ireland thread. Well, my goal for this TL is to create a United Ireland, free of foreign rule, non-ASB, and without the constant struggle (well for the most part) which dogged Ireland for centuries.

Some will say “Impossible” or attempt to discredit this, however I will in all good faith attempt to create a fair, balanced, and factual TL which everyone can enjoy (and hopefully learn something about Irish history, a subject sorely forgotten even amongst the diaspora)

In the style of Geekhis' “Viva Balbo!”, a TL I greatly admire, I will first have three or so chapters detailing history prior to the POD to set up a foundation for the TL. Following this I will break into the POD and go on from there. Pre-POD chapter will be numbered with roman numerals, while post will be normal Arabic numbering.​

Please DO NOT be gentle I want to be ripped apart because even abuse can be constructive. Oh and this is my first TL that I actually have a substantial amount of the TL written before I post it, so If you don't like it so what, it is going to be released anyway
 
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Germaniac

Donor
Chapter I: A Brief History of Ireland Through the Initial Tudor Re-Conquest

Prior to the arrival of the Normans, the island of Ireland was was ruled by an assortment of petty kingdoms and rival dynasties. In these squabbles one of these kings was exiled by the High King of Ireland, a rather ambiguous title as the High King never truly ruled over all of Ireland. King Diarmait of Lienster fled to France, and with the approval of Henry II, received assistance from Norman knights. Henry, growing concerned about a possible rival Norman kingdom in Ireland mounted a second invasion to assert his control over Diarmait's successor Richard de Clare, or Strongbow as he is most remembered as. Henry handed his newly secured lands to his younger brother John as “Lord of Ireland”, however when John unexpectedly became King of England the lands fell directly under the Crown.


Www.wesleyjohnston.com-users-ireland-maps-historical-map1300.gif

(Areas under the control of Irish Lords and Hiberno-Norman Lords by 1300, however many of the Norman Lords had been absorbed into the Irish Culture by then.)

As the Norman settlers in Ireland became more and more absorbed into the Irish culture, the power of the Norman lords declined. Wars broke out throughout Ireland and culminated with the Battle of Callann in 1261, in which the Irish scored a resounding victory over the Norman lords. After this Norman lords began adopting Irish culture and merging into the Gaelic political order. During this time power shifted back to the Gaelic lords and this was only further solidified by the eradication of the Norman and English settlers due to the Black Death who lived in the town, as opposed to the Irish natives who lived in sparsely populated farming communities few and far between. The true power in Ireland was no longer in the hands of foreigners, but instead with the native populations once more. By the fifteenth century the Lordship rested with Fitzgerald Earl of Kildare.


Ireland_1450.png


(Ireland prior to the Tudor reconquest, the Anglo-Irish are for the most part English/Norman Lords autonomous from English rule along with the Irish lords)


By the end of the fifteenth century the Fitzgerald's had become untrustworthy and went as far as assisting in the crowning a Yorkist pretender to the English thrown. With the Irish leaders no longer trustworthy and fear of a weak and dangerous western flank, King Henry VIII put down the rebellion and began a campaign to reconquer Ireland. Henry instituted a policy of surrender and regrant in which Gaelic lords would surrender their territories and then would have then granted back to them after swearing loyalty to the king and adopting English customs. The plan was imagined as a way to reform Ireland along the lines of England. Henry VIII became the first true King of Ireland, and with it the beginning of true English rule over Ireland. While this policy was generally accepted amongst the lords of Ireland, as it left them in control and for the most part they continued their allegiance to Gaelic customs, it soon turned against them with the arrival of the English reformation and the ever tightening grip of their English overlords.​
 

Germaniac

Donor
Chapter II: A Brief History of Ireland Through the Plantations


While Henry had crowned himself King of Ireland, he did not have complete authority over the whole of the island. This process would take well over a century and would see blood spilled on both sides. Several rebellions took place in the 16th century during the reigns of Elizabeth I and James I including the Desmond Rebellions, which were finally put down through systematic starvation and famine which killed around thirty thousand Irish, and the Nine Years War in Ulster, which would lead to the establishment of the Plantation of Ulster.


The Nine Years War would be a major turning point in Irish history. Hugh O Neil, the earl of Tyrone, was the most powerful man in Ulster. Recruiting Scottish mercenaries, hiring Irish mercenaries, and recruiting his own soldiers, he was able to raise and feed an army of over 8000 men. Though the purchase of arms from England and Scotland, as well as Spanish aid, O Neil was in a position to resist the English takeover of Ulster. The war was devastating for the province and the Irish were crushed. It is estimated that a total of 100,000 Irish were killed during the war and at least 30,000 English soldiers and colonists.

Lords of Ulster, following the utter defeat in the Nine Years War, saw their lands diminished, induced famine throughout the province, and with an ever increases loss of population. In 1607 they fled Ulster and went to continental Europe to raise and army, supported by the Spanish, to re invade Ireland. However, the Spanish recently made peace with the English and were content with the Stuarts on the thrown. The self imposed exiles never returned to Ireland, and the English took advantage.​

The English confiscated the lands of these lords and began the colonization of Ireland with English and Scottish protestants. Prior to the colonization Ulster had been considered the most “Irish” or the Irish provinces, being the most resilient to English rule. Elizabeth I saw an opportunity to plant protestant settlers en mass in the sparsely populated province of Ulster. The Nine Years War only decreased the populations of Ulster and allowed for further expansion of protestant control in Ireland. Unlike previous attempts, the plantations were not located in remote areas the were few and far between, but were located in massive confiscated territories in Ulster. All the settlers had to be English speaking and protestant, with hopes of converting Ireland in mass to protestantism. However, unlike the popular belief that the Irish were displaced, for the most part the native Irish retained what remained of their lands.



NineYearsWar.gif


(Protestant plantations prior to the Nine Years War and after)


IrelandPlantation.jpg

(Ulster divided after the war)
 
Very interesting! Always nice to see an Ireland TL.

Just curious, how does Ireland become independent of English rule? Are you going to do something with King James?

Personally, I've always felt that the best way to have a united, independent Ireland would be Brian Boru not getting stabbed after Clontarf, but I'd love to see what you come up with.
 

Thande

Donor
Well, it depends how you define English or Scottish influence. I mean, you've already got the large number of Catholic "Old English" landlords and the Ulster planters. Ultimately these were eventually assimilated into a new Irish identity of sorts, although contradictions still abound in modern Northern Ireland obviously, but most crazy Irish nationalists would still consider them to be foreign influences.

And the 1600s seems too late for an Ireland fully free of any foreign influence. Granted if England and Scotland get knocked over in wars with continental foes you can buy time for Ireland to attempt political unification, but ultimately you have to face the fact that you have an island that can't support a large population yet is strategically situated to control important shipping lanes. You can posit rulers who could try to diplomatically play off the great powers against each other to preserve full independence, but you're looking at Machiavelli on steroids.
 

Germaniac

Donor
I actually just noticed that I had placed this in the wrong forum, as My POD is post 1900, this was more of a short history because most people don't know much about Irish History. I already asked a mod to move this into the post 1900

Originally I was working on two POD's one with Boru and one with Henry VIII illegitimate son, who was to be given the kingdom of Ireland before Henry's advisers convinced him it was a bad idea.

I worked out rough TL for them, but I just could not see how Boru and a TL after him could keep the English out forever, even a united Ireland (which would be highly unlikely considering its history) would be in a very tricky position to keep the English out.

With Henry son, he died pretty young, so its difficult to decided how to approach it, Not to mention Henry had plans to have his Illegitimate son marry his daughter Mary, nothing list incest to keep people interested.

I was also considering moving the Home Rule Act back 15 or so years, but I just couldn't come up with a good enough POD to get the house of Commons to pass it. Hell without Asquith's need of the Nationalists to take away the house of Lords power idk if it could even happen peacefully

Plus if I go to far back, I might not be able to hesitate making a Ireland-wank AND EVERYONE has had their fill of those
 
Well, it depends how you define English or Scottish influence. I mean, you've already got the large number of Catholic "Old English" landlords and the Ulster planters. Ultimately these were eventually assimilated into a new Irish identity of sorts, although contradictions still abound in modern Northern Ireland obviously, but most crazy Irish nationalists would still consider them to be foreign influences.

And the 1600s seems too late for an Ireland fully free of any foreign influence. Granted if England and Scotland get knocked over in wars with continental foes you can buy time for Ireland to attempt political unification, but ultimately you have to face the fact that you have an island that can't support a large population yet is strategically situated to control important shipping lanes. You can posit rulers who could try to diplomatically play off the great powers against each other to preserve full independence, but you're looking at Machiavelli on steroids.

I think by 'free of foreign rule' he means, er, free of foreign rule.

I am, however, pondering what POD he's planning to use. Honestly, I can't think of many this late. The United Irishmen getting more of the promised and planned help from France would do it, for a time at least, but that wouldn't be true independence, it'd be an Irish Republic satellited to France. Anything after that and Britain's too powerful.

So, I'm thinking something to do with William and James. Hm... French support leads to a Stuart Ireland and an Orange/Hanoverian England and Scotland? Unlikely, the Stuarts would still want the entirety of their old realms. Perhaps it could be offered to a younger son, someone who wouldn't have expected to inherit. Did such a person exist?

EDIT: Yay for me taking such a long time to post. Hm. In that case, interesting.
 
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Great start! I'm interested in seeing what you can do here. Thanks for the background info (I know so little about the conflict beyond the propaganda for both sides) and thanks for the nod. I'm humbled.
 

Thande

Donor
Well, if you're talking about that stuff, it's easier: Home Rule Bill passing has been done before in other timelines, although you won't avoid violence in Ulster, it'll just be the other way around. But Ireland would probably remain politically aligned with Britain in that case. I suppose it could start to chart its own way about the same time the other dominions did, in the 1960s...
 

Glen

Moderator
Moving thread to after 1900 per author's request as the POD has changed to a post 1900 date.
 

Cook

Banned
You’d need someone extremely popular who could smash the power of the church and make the Irish Republic a secular state.
Similar to Ataturk’s actions in Turkey.

Perhaps if Michael Collins not been killed in the Civil War he’d have taken over from De Valera as President and been able to institute changes to modernise the nation.

Without at least a secular constitution guaranteeing the rights of religious minorities it’s hard to see Ulster voting to join the Republic.
 
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