A true Roman Alexander or what if Pompey had a more impressive eastern campaign

Pompey can not estabilish a real dynasty, he has neither the blood, the support or the interest to do it... He only wanted to be recognized as the uncontested Primus inter Pares, so is not unlikely who if Caesar is already a close ally, likely his right hand and a relative by marriage will be able to essentially take over after his death... Gaius and Sextus maybe will not be happy about this but they will still have a big part of their father's fortune and with that a lot of political power, clientes, resource and influence so they will likely stay satisfied.
 
Pompey can not estabilish a real dynasty, he has neither the blood, the support or the interest to do it... He only wanted to be recognized as the uncontested Primus inter Pares, so is not unlikely who if Caesar is already a close ally, likely his right hand and a relative by marriage will be able to essentially take over after his death... Gaius and Sextus maybe will not be happy about this but they will still have a big part of their father's fortune and with that a lot of political power, clientes, resource and influence so they will likely stay satisfied.
If Caesar is pompeys father in law and grandfather to one of his sons and that son is Caesar heir wouldn't that make a dynasty even if by accident?
 

Raunchel

Banned
It would make the start of one. Possibly. If there isn't someone like Octavian to stabilise the system, it could fall apart once Pompey and Caesar are dead. We don't know how capable this hypothetical son would have been.
 
If Caesar is pompeys father in law and grandfather to one of his sons and that son is Caesar heir wouldn't that make a dynasty even if by accident?
A sort of... The kind of political dynasty who the aristocracy of Rome can accept... Is not a given who after Caesar's death Caius Julius Caesar Pompeianus will become the new ruler of Rome... Sure he will be a very important member of the ruling class but likely he will not be the first man in Rome like his father and grandfather
 
It would make the start of one. Possibly. If there isn't someone like Octavian to stabilise the system, it could fall apart once Pompey and Caesar are dead. We don't know how capable this hypothetical son would have been.
A sort of... The kind of political dynasty who the aristocracy of Rome can accept... Is not a given who after Caesar's death Caius Julius Caesar Pompeianus will become the new ruler of Rome... Sure he will be a very important member of the ruling class but likely he will not be the first man in Rome like his father and grandfather
What would a Pompey and Caesar reform of Rome be like?
 

Raunchel

Banned
What would a Pompey and Caesar reform of Rome be like?

That's difficult to say. They would have to have kept the republican institutions of course, so no major changes there. I can imagine the boss just being made dictator for life, they didn't have Octavian's subtlety, which of course creates far more friction. Or they remain more in the background, except for frequently becoming consul.

I could see there being a fair few conspiracies against them, and those could be twisted as being against the Republic. This could then be used for reform. But Pompey wasn't much of a reformer, so it would have to come from Caesar, who isn't number one. So I don't really know. It depends on too many factors.
 
That's difficult to say. They would have to have kept the republican institutions of course, so no major changes there. I can imagine the boss just being made dictator for life, they didn't have Octavian's subtlety, which of course creates far more friction. Or they remain more in the background, except for frequently becoming consul.

I could see there being a fair few conspiracies against them, and those could be twisted as being against the Republic. This could then be used for reform. But Pompey wasn't much of a reformer, so it would have to come from Caesar, who isn't number one. So I don't really know. It depends on too many factors.
Pompey just along as he has enough glory might let day to day operations go to Caesar if they team up only coming in if it intrested him or it was important. So what would a fully realized ceaserian refom look like?
 

Raunchel

Banned
Pompey just along as he has enough glory might let day to day operations go to Caesar if they team up only coming in if it intrested him or it was important. So what would a fully realized ceaserian refom look like?

I fear that I don't really know, we didn't really get to see a lot of that kind of thing from him. But I think that he could move to get rid of Pompey somehow, to take everything into his own hands. The risk of assassination is enormous, but let's assume that he avoids getting killed. If he is allied with Pompey, I could see a weakening of the Tribunes. And of course, allowing people to be elected consul more often.
 
I fear that I don't really know, we didn't really get to see a lot of that kind of thing from him. But I think that he could move to get rid of Pompey somehow, to take everything into his own hands. The risk of assassination is enormous, but let's assume that he avoids getting killed. If he is allied with Pompey, I could see a weakening of the Tribunes. And of course, allowing people to be elected consul more often.
Who avoids being killed? Also what were the reforms that must be needed for the empire to survive?
 

Raunchel

Banned
It would depend I think. There aren't any people who have to survive or die. To survive, you need a way to keep the armies under control. That either means ensuring that the central strongman has enough troops to always beat rivals (either in the form of a standing army located there, or easy ways to call lots of men to arms), but this falls flat whenever there is a truly big threat on the frontier, as it will require big armies, and then loyalty will go to the general, leading to the all too familiar issues. Other than that, to survive the central authority needs a source of income that is sufficient to fund this own army, separate from the rest of the state. Octavian had this in the form of Egypt and a few other such provinces.
 
It would depend I think. There aren't any people who have to survive or die. To survive, you need a way to keep the armies under control. That either means ensuring that the central strongman has enough troops to always beat rivals (either in the form of a standing army located there, or easy ways to call lots of men to arms), but this falls flat whenever there is a truly big threat on the frontier, as it will require big armies, and then loyalty will go to the general, leading to the all too familiar issues. Other than that, to survive the central authority needs a source of income that is sufficient to fund this own army, separate from the rest of the state. Octavian had this in the form of Egypt and a few other such provinces.
True. And Pompey has both eygpt and mespotamia. That could be enough to finance the state.
 

Sulemain

Banned
I suspect a Pompeyian Empire would be slightly schizophrenic in how it presents and is received in the East and West.
 

Raunchel

Banned
True. Is there anyway to fix the republic so pompeys sons end as just powerful senators and not emperors?

It depends. You could have him have a fit of idealism, keep the provinces with the senate, and donates a significant part of his enormous wealth to the state, or divides it over his veterans or something like that.

That way, his sons only inherit great wealth and a name. They would of course have great careers, but would have to achieve their fame on their own. They probably aren't as capable as Pompey, but they are still prime candidates to lead the next round of civil wars.

To do this you however have to take the angle from Caesar. He could for instance die before Pompey, who then has sole power, to do with as he pleases. The issue is Caesar's wealth, but that would be more manageable than that of the conqueror of Egypt.
 
I suspect a Pompeyian Empire would be slightly schizophrenic in how it presents and is received in the East and West.
Why?
It depends. You could have him have a fit of idealism, keep the provinces with the senate, and donates a significant part of his enormous wealth to the state, or divides it over his veterans or something like that.

That way, his sons only inherit great wealth and a name. They would of course have great careers, but would have to achieve their fame on their own. They probably aren't as capable as Pompey, but they are still prime candidates to lead the next round of civil wars.

To do this you however have to take the angle from Caesar. He could for instance die before Pompey, who then has sole power, to do with as he pleases. The issue is Caesar's wealth, but that would be more manageable than that of the conqueror of Egypt.
ok. So after Caesar reforms the republic he dies and Pompey has that fit of idealism leading to him donating most of his wealth to the state. While his sons are still some of the richest men in Rome with what's left the one by Julia is the richest because he also has Caesar wealth. Does this make sense? Also how does Roman inheritence work?
 
So what would Rome do with a much weaker empire to the east? also would Armenia also be annexed to compliment Pompey conquest?
 
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