A True Marxist Revolution?

I was wondering (for a drabble I was thinking about), what one would need for a true Marxist revolution. Now, OTL Communism claims this (of course, this is untrue- revolution was not worker-based, relied on a party-bourgeois culture, established the state as opposed to corporate power and generally ignored the industrial origins of the revolution in favor of agrarian basis and reform with disastrous results).

I was wondering what would be, and what would happen, with a true Marxist revolution? I hope the more educated Reds could help me out with this, such as the ever-knowledgeable Jello_Biafra or his, so to speak, "comrades".
 

RousseauX

Donor
It's about the same chance as Libertarian's claim of a "true" free market or religious devout claim about a "true" prophet leading them to the promising land. Not the least because what is "true" Marxism seems to be quite open to debate.
 
What I am really asking is what factors and changes would need to exist to get closest to the Marxist ideal of revolution. I realize (especially as a member of the political Right) that a true "worker's paradise" is especially lofty, but I just want to come closer to it rather than having Soviet Copy # 45 or Mao Copy # 16.
 
What I am really asking is what factors and changes would need to exist to get closest to the Marxist ideal of revolution. I realize (especially as a member of the political Right) that a true "worker's paradise" is especially lofty, but I just want to come closer to it rather than having Soviet Copy # 45 or Mao Copy # 16.

The closest the world's ever come to a true workers' society is probably Catalonia in 1936. To allow the anarchists and POUM to build a sustainable society in the long term, you'd have to both ensure Republican victory quickly (before the more authoritarian members of the Popular Front start worrying about "revolutionary chaos" dragging them down) and prevent the PCE from becoming the major conduit of materiel from the Soviets.

Get the French to intervene in early 1936, and you might have a shot.
 
It's about the same chance as Libertarian's claim of a "true" free market or religious devout claim about a "true" prophet leading them to the promising land. Not the least because what is "true" Marxism seems to be quite open to debate.
A proper Marxist revolution would be one occurring in circumstances that were predicted by Marxian historical materialism. It says nothing about the outcome of that revolution, merely the circumstances under which it occurred and the forces that drive that revolution.

A Marxist revolution would be one driven by an internal crisis of capitalism that could not be resolved within the existing state superstructure. The rate of profit falls so low, and the economy becomes so capital intensive, that it becomes impossible for capitalists, even in the system of cartelized oligopoly, to realize much gain for themselves, let alone economic growth that benefits other classes. In otherwords, it would be a crisis of a terminal stage of the economic system, just like the crises of the previous feudal order, that enabled a decisive rupture in extant social and economic relations.

The growth, and then eventual stagnation of the capitalist economy, would unite workers against the system. When the alienation and degradation inherent in the division of labor reaches is no longer outweighed by the prospect of continued prosperity and hope for tomorrow, "false consciousness" can no longer be sustained, and so either one of two things occurs: reactionaries entrench the system, and it degenerates, or there is a revolutionary transformation.
 

TheShah

Gone Fishin'
A proper Marxist revolution would be one occurring in circumstances that were predicted by Marxian historical materialism. It says nothing about the outcome of that revolution, merely the circumstances under which it occurred and the forces that drive that revolution.

A Marxist revolution would be one driven by an internal crisis of capitalism that could not be resolved within the existing state superstructure. The rate of profit falls so low, and the economy becomes so capital intensive, that it becomes impossible for capitalists, even in the system of cartelized oligopoly, to realize much gain for themselves, let alone economic growth that benefits other classes. In otherwords, it would be a crisis of a terminal stage of the economic system, just like the crises of the previous feudal order, that enabled a decisive rupture in extant social and economic relations.

The growth, and then eventual stagnation of the capitalist economy, would unite workers against the system. When the alienation and degradation inherent in the division of labor reaches is no longer outweighed by the prospect of continued prosperity and hope for tomorrow, "false consciousness" can no longer be sustained, and so either one of two things occurs: reactionaries entrench the system, and it degenerates, or there is a revolutionary transformation.

And has that ever actually happened in an industrialized society?
 
And has that ever actually happened in an industrialized society?
No. That's kind of the point of the question being asked.

And I'm going to pre-empt you before you before you take out the daggers: the fact that it hasn't happened yet is no more a refutation of the theory than the dynamics of the capitalist market behave in ways predictable by historical materialism is a vindication of the theory.
 

RousseauX

Donor
What I am really asking is what factors and changes would need to exist to get closest to the Marxist ideal of revolution. I realize (especially as a member of the political Right) that a true "worker's paradise" is especially lofty, but I just want to come closer to it rather than having Soviet Copy # 45 or Mao Copy # 16.
Insofar the 20th century is concerned, not much closer if you are talking about any which lasted beyond a few month.

Catalonia gets cited a lot but even by Orwell's particularly rosy description of it it's a society which collapses back into per-revolutionary state in a matter of month even before the Anarchists were crushed by the Communists. And frankly that's one of the nicer Anarcho-Soc revolutions during the period. The Anarchists in Aragon managed to create a system that was in practice quite Stalinesque with a different set of justifications. Anarchism isn't too practical as a societal model, ok, unless you really want to buy the Socialist's claims that 95%+ of the population will believe firmly in it and not do anything bad according to Anarch-Soc.
 

RousseauX

Donor
No. That's kind of the point of the question being asked.

And I'm going to pre-empt you before you before you take out the daggers: the fact that it hasn't happened yet is no more a refutation of the theory than the dynamics of the capitalist market behave in ways predictable by historical materialism is a vindication of the theory.
Sure, in the same sense that since the second coming of Christ hasn't occurred yet who are you to say Christians are wrong?
 
Sure, in the same sense that since the second coming of Christ hasn't occurred yet who are you to say Christians are wrong?
One's an untestable supernatural claim, supported only by theology. The other is a testable empirical claim hindered by the simple fact that all historical situations are, to a great extent, sui generis, yet is based upon observable trends in the dynamics of a social system.

I'll leave you to decide which one is which. Save your smug condescension for elsewhere. Because foolish posts like this one are frankly way below your intelligence level. You're more than capable of making a rational argument without resorting to this kind of fallacious drivel.
The closest the world's ever come to a true workers' society is probably Catalonia in 1936. To allow the anarchists and POUM to build a sustainable society in the long term, you'd have to both ensure Republican victory quickly (before the more authoritarian members of the Popular Front start worrying about "revolutionary chaos" dragging them down) and prevent the PCE from becoming the major conduit of materiel from the Soviets.

Get the French to intervene in early 1936, and you might have a shot.
It wasn't a Marxist revolution, though. The revolts in Catalonia and Aragon were reactions to the Nationalist putsch,, really gained most of their momentum simply because the Spanish Republic was so blitheringly incompetent and unstable in 1936 that they were totally blindsided by a coup that even the CNT's intelligence network had discovered.
 
It's not going to happen. The world is not and can not be run by altruism. Real life people look out for #1 and the "Free rider problem" is a real life issue. If you make as much slacking off as working hard why not slack off?
 
It's not going to happen. The world is not and can not be run by altruism. Real life people look out for #1 and the "Free rider problem" is a real life issue. If you make as much slacking off as working hard why not slack off?

This is ignoring that evolution actually punishes selfishness just as much if not more than someone who is altruistic, and also is ignoring that Socialism isn't based on altruism.
 
In Germany, the country the Marxists predicted would be more likely go Communist first, there were the Spartacist risings in the aftermath of WWI.

Maybe the October Revolution doesn't take place, but the Spartacists succeed?

Of course, the Spatacists might have been "vanguard" types like the Bolsheviks, so that might not fulfill the conditions of the OP.
 
In Germany, the country the Marxists predicted would be more likely go Communist first, there were the Spartacist risings in the aftermath of WWI.

Maybe the October Revolution doesn't take place, but the Spartacists succeed?

Of course, the Spatacists might have been "vanguard" types like the Bolsheviks, so that might not fulfill the conditions of the OP.

Actually, I think this could succeed, as it would cause possibly a momentum of Communist revolts to occur, with country after country experiencing one that is supported by their neighbor. Perhaps a literal world revolution?
 
What about the Paris Comune? Wasn't that close to a comunist revolution?

I think there were Comunard attempts in other cities that failed. Maybe the revolutions succeed in other cities or the Paris rebels do a better job forming an army and march out?

Of course, the Germans aren't going to like this one bit...
 
Actually, I think this could succeed, as it would cause possibly a momentum of Communist revolts to occur, with country after country experiencing one that is supported by their neighbor. Perhaps a literal world revolution?

That might be a bit much. However, a successful Spartacist rising could preserve the Red regime in Hungary though. IIRC the Soviets tried to support it as well and diverted troops that day during the Polish War, but I don't think their timing really worked out.

(Horthy might have been in control by the time the soldiers started heading south.)

The reaction of Kerensky in Russia if there is no October Revolution could be interesting. Kerensky was willing to squash the Bolsheviks, but he seemed to fear rightist movements more--he released Trotsky and others to fight Kornilov when it looked like there was a coup coming.

A surviving Kerensky government might try to support the Spartacists against any Anglo-French attempt to squash them.
 
For France and the UK? Sure. However, Italy falling to Communism is certainly not out of bounds, to say the least.
 
For France and the UK? Sure. However, Italy falling to Communism is certainly not out of bounds, to say the least.

At some point though, foreign help becomes a problem. It'd stop being a domestic revolution and turn into "see the traitors are helping foreigners invade."

(Especially if the intervening forces don't behave themselves.)
 
At some point though, foreign help becomes a problem. It'd stop being a domestic revolution and turn into "see the traitors are helping foreigners invade."

(Especially if the intervening forces don't behave themselves.)

True, but would it really get to that level by Italy? Surely they can get more than just two or three Communist countries utilizing that method.
 
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