A Transylvanian Duchy... a New TL...

or rather the beginnings of my new TL...

based on ideas from this ancient thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=99170

and from this ancient book "Saxons Through Seventeen Centuries"

and this site: http://www.sibiweb.de/geschi/7b-history.htm


i have created a scenario for an independent "Transylvanian Duchy". So without further ado, i present 2 u my TL...:) enjoy!


Transyvanian Duchy: The Rise and Fall of a New Nation...

Prologue:
In the Beginning: (a little background information)

The year is 1211 A.D.

Crusades against the Turks are raping the middle east. Countless young European sons are dying for little again in a far away desolate land, all for the cross. Deeply moved by the misery of the crusades a young German prince founds the Order of the Teutonic knights for the sole purpose of protecting the pilgrims on their quest to the Holy Lands. Soon their white cloaks and black crosses would be known throughout Europe and the holy lands.

But soon as the crusades begin to wilt under the relentless Turkish forces, the king of Hungary (king Andreas), called upon the Teutonic Order to protect its eastern German colony against various raiders and nomadic tribes. The knights called upon the local saxon settlers and foreign saxons alike, to build a string of castles and forts throughout the Karpathian mountains to defend against these unholy attackers.

Within a few years, the land was well defended and protected against all outside influences. The king of Hungry, fearing the growing power of the Teutonic knights, ordered them to leave the country. He confiscated their lands and power and titles.

The knights, who claimed the only bowed to the pope, refused to leave.

The king of Hungry grew angry and began calling up a large army to forcefully remove the Teutonic knights and any resisting saxons alike.

(point of divergence is as follows)

Instead of relenting peacefully, the knights call upon their battle tested comrades and loyal free saxons alike. Together they called up a force of perhaps six-thousand men. (a good third of them battle tested soldiers from the crusades and the other two-thirds, local trained saxons).

The king called up an army of perhaps twenty to twenty-five thousand men from all over his empire. But most of these men had never seen battle before and had little training. Nevertheless the king was confident in his army which outnumbered the enemy almost four to one.

And on the edges of the Saxon territory they fought, one side for survival, the other side for loyalty to their king.

After two bloody days of fighting, the Teutonic saxon army had lost half of their men but had won the field. The king's men retreated, shamed, having lost nearly ten-thousand souls. Two days later the saxons attacked again, surprising the retreating Hungarian army in a narrow pass. Another three thousand Hungarians were slaughtered by arrows and stones alike, and the saxons lost a mere twenty-three souls.

The war was won.

The Teutonic Saxon land was safe for the time being. The king, who was shunned in shame, was forced to yield the land to this new kingdom. The Duchy of Transylvania. It was the dawn of a new kingdom.


So what do you guys think. Do you like my new timeline? I hope so:p Tell me what you think. (and yes i will be continuing this timeline as well for those of you who enjoy it) https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=95381
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Interesting, but you need heavy German emigration to make a Transsylvanian state viable based on the "Saxon"* population, so you need to look at what areas of Transylvania which would be thinly populated enough to make settlement possible. Beside that you need some integration of the Szeklers into the state.

*Transsylvanian "Saxons" wasn't Low Germans, but Franconian (Frankish) Germans.
 
Interesting, but you need heavy German emigration to make a Transsylvanian state viable based on the "Saxon"* population, so you need to look at what areas of Transylvania which would be thinly populated enough to make settlement possible. Beside that you need some integration of the Szeklers into the state.

thats coming in the next section....


Transsylvanian "Saxons" wasn't Low Germans, but Franconian (Frankish) Germans

that's debateable depending on what source u use... mostly the "saxons" are considered to have come from all across germany, the low countries and northern frankish lands... but again that all depends on what book/site u read from...

but anyways i will be using the term "saxon/s" to refer to the germanic populations...

but anyways does anyone else have any opinions... anyone else have anything to add...would anyone else like to see more?
 
Interesting, but you need heavy German emigration to make a Transsylvanian state viable based on the "Saxon"* population, so you need to look at what areas of Transylvania which would be thinly populated enough to make settlement possible. Beside that you need some integration of the Szeklers into the state.

*Transsylvanian "Saxons" wasn't Low Germans, but Franconian (Frankish) Germans.

I agree with you, a tiny minority does not a viable state make.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I agree with you, a tiny minority does not a viable state make.

Yes, but if we look at the area the Saxons lived in and hold it up against a map of Transsylvania, you will see that there several area in the Western part of country which could be open up for "Saxon" settlement especially along the Mures. Beside the Hungarian populated area in the East, Transsylvania seem rather thinly populated and quite excellent territorium for "Drag nach Osten"-style settlement, with the Vlach serving the same role as the Slavs did in Pommerania and Silesia, or in worst case we will get something like the Teutonic Order in the East Baltic. So this timeline has potential.
 
Yes, but if we look at the area the Saxons lived in and hold it up against a map of Transsylvania, you will see that there several area in the Western part of country which could be open up for "Saxon" settlement especially along the Mures. Beside the Hungarian populated area in the East, Transsylvania seem rather thinly populated and quite excellent territorium for "Drag nach Osten"-style settlement, with the Vlach serving the same role as the Slavs did in Pommerania and Silesia, or in worst case we will get something like the Teutonic Order in the East Baltic. So this timeline has potential

my thoughts were that the ruler of "this new land" would continue to solidify their holdings while inviting settlers from 'greater germany' to settle the land for free. therefore hopefully increasing the population all the while preparing for another war against the king of the land they split off from.... all the while working to "germanify" ( <-is that a word?) the locals in their realm. this was my idea for the next segment anyways. what do you guys think?
 
My one question: will there be Bathories? The Bathory family is so incredibly fun and weird (not just Elizabeth Bathory and her...bad habits, indiscretions, boundlessly enthusiastic serial killing, call it what you will, but the whole family, really) it's a shame to not have them in some capacity, perhaps as the multigenerational archenemies to your protagonists.

Maybe one of your Transylvanian Saxon princes marries Elizabeth, to put an end to the feud. And then wacky hijinx ensue.

But on a more serious note, I researched sixteenth and seventeenth century Transylvania for my timeline, and was authentically shocked by the toll the warfare took on that society when Giorgio Basta basically depopulated the place Thirty Years' War-style in a very few years of occupation. It would be fun to see a world where not just one but several of the venerable Eastern European principalities make it to the twentieth century at least less scathed than they actually did (also fun for instance would be a history of Poland sans-deluge).

But mark my words. Bathories.
 
Elizabeth was the vampire, right?

Bavarian Raven, you have some fun ahead of you.

Nikephoros, as I understand it the accepted historical version was that she killed a few hundred women. Now, rumors have emerged about her bathing in blood and such as that, but as I understand it that's discredited. Although the story to begin with seems crazily farfetched so it's hard to say any one part is just too far out there to be believable.

She did help inspire Bram Stoker, though, and I think her legend is one of the reasons Count Dracula is described as being Transylvanian and not Wallachian, though I may be wrong.
 
well i couldn't help it and read up on her (Bathory) instead of finishing my work;) (there's always more time to finish work right :D )

an interesting lady she is (reminds me an my grade 11 english teacher strangely enough:eek: ) lol now i know i have to fit her into this TL. :p thanks for the hint...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
my thoughts were that the ruler of "this new land" would continue to solidify their holdings while inviting settlers from 'greater germany' to settle the land for free. therefore hopefully increasing the population all the while preparing for another war against the king of the land they split off from.... all the while working to "germanify" ( <-is that a word?) the locals in their realm. this was my idea for the next segment anyways. what do you guys think?

Honestly I don't give that big a chance, the lack of a local Vlach nobility is the biggest problem, where the Germans Bürgers, instead of local germanificated nobles, ruled directly there was little linguistic Germanification* of the local serfs. Likely you will se something like the Baltic states, with a free Saxon majority along the Valachian border and the Mures, a large free Szeklers enclave in the east, and Catholic Vlach serfs ruled by Saxons nobility/landlords in the West and North. The best chance for a Saxon take over is if the Vlach tries to resist the attemps of Catholification, which would likely mean a lot of them leave or dies in rebelliens and Germans is invited to refill the depopulated and marginal** territories.

*Even through there was large scale adoption of German loanwords

**Without Vlach rebelliens Vlach surplus populated will slowly take over the marginal areas, through the Germans specialised in taking over in East Europe thank to more efficient farming methods.
 
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