VVD0D95
Banned
I wouldn't. I'd use my own daughter, show how serious I am and bait the Lancastrians.
A Thorn In The Rose: A War Of The Roses TL
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I wouldn't. I'd use my own daughter, show how serious I am and bait the Lancastrians.
You might, but knowing York he'd laugh Dorset out of court. Man had a huge ego and he needs allies on the international front more than he needs them locally, and Dorset isn't exactly rolling in dough nor is he particularly well connected through blood ties so it's an effectively useless match.
VVD0D95
Banned
Dorset is also the heir to the main Lancastrian adherent, if he marries Liz of York, he's effectively jumped ship and is tied to York through marriage. Given his capabilities, that's a big blow for the Lancastrians, who don't exactly have many capable commanders.
Jonathan1997
Banned
Noble families whenever really close due to fostering and parents not really having time for there sons and daughters but for daughter that was vastly different. Edward I of England had a strong relationship with his daughters in comparison to his son Edward II of England. As for Henry Vi historically you was too much of a week personality to be an effective King it was his John Duke of Bedford who get France for Henry and the Alliance with burgundy going. As for Richard the 3rd Duke of York and in this new timeline Richard iii of England. I do not now much but according to Dan Jones he was only acting to support the crown but his rivalry with Somerset and Queen Margaret meant that war was inevitable. As the kings only male heir after his son he was the one who should have had power in court not queen Margaret and her supporters. Looking forward to seeing more wish you luck. As a side note for those who don't know Richard 3rd Duke of York was crowned with a paper crown or crown of roses in order to mock him then his head was placed outside of York in OTL. This is what inspired George r.r. Martin game of thrones.
Very sensible choice by Dorset. I wonder if he could end up being a kingmaker figure ITTL?
Warwick not being the Kingmaker is heresy!
Although to be serious given his apparent competence the side he backs has bolstered chances of winning.
Hey now, I said A kingmaker, not THE kingmaker
...warwick will surely still have his part to play.Exactly, I'll bet he gets all of wales on his side and that could prove decisive...
There can only be one!Hey now, I said A kingmaker, not THE kingmaker
Exactly, I'll bet he gets all of wales on his side and that could prove decisive...
I....wouldn't go that far. York's dominant landowner there, very popular IIRC, and Warwick has the Despenser and traditional Warwick lands there, together the Yorkists pretty much control Wales, so in my view any and all decisiveness he gets his side will be military victories akin to Barnet etc. Tho I could be wrong, depending on how his term there is viewed by the commons.
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Well, he didn't make any choice at that point. He just decided to take personal control of Wales and I hope he won't help York. Not only he doesn't get anything out of helping York, he is effectively striving towards death of his father, as I doubt that York would spare him and he'd do better for a kingdom just accepting Henry's offer and taking all the lands of York for himself, as it'd allow him to outinfluence his father at court and take reins of government in his hands, which would be better than instalation of Yorkist branch of the dynasty and the instability and civil wars following it.
At this point there will be instability and infighting, whether it's the Lancastrians or the Yorkists, but better a king who can think for himself than Somerset's sockpuppet.
Chapter 109: Queen Cecily
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 109: Queen Cecily
March, 1459
March, 1459
“So, tell me girls, what have you learned about the court so far?” Cecily asked, looking at her daughters.
“There are so many fools and ingrates.” Her youngest daughter Margaret said, smiling as she did so.
“And why do you say that?” Cecily asked, she was not surprised that Margaret was using language far beyond her age. She had always been smart.
“Well, for instance there was some lowly knight who tried to ask me for my favour for the lists in the summer, and I had to remind him that I am a Princess and thus cannot give it to him.” Margaret said.
Cecily frowned. There had been rumours about a tournament happening in the summer for some time, Richard had said he had no idea where those rumours were coming from, given the situation the Kingdom was in. Furthermore, if someone was asking her daughter for her favour, that meant people were believing the rumours, which in of itself was not good. They didn’t want to look frivolous.
Before she could ask who, it was who had asked Margaret for her favour, Cecily’s older daughter Elizabeth spoke. “That wasn’t just some knight, that was our cousin.”
“He is just some lowly knight though!” Margaret protested.
“Thomas asked you for your favour?” Cecily asked surprised. Her husband’s nephew had barely made an appearance in their lives before now, but suddenly he was present all the time.
“Yes.” Margaret said, in a manner that told her exactly what she thought of that. Cecily smiled.
“And what of the rest of you? What are you all making of court?” Cecily asked.
“I don’t understand why there have to be so many formalities.” Elizabeth complained. “It takes so much time to get anything done that by the time the thing you want is done, you’ve forgotten what it is you wanted done in the first place.”
“And what sort of thing is it that you’ve wanted done?” Cecily asked intrigued.
Elizabeth blushed. “I wanted a specific dress made, and because of who I am, I had to get something checked before I could make the payment to the maker and then I had to get another check done before I could take the dress.”
“Ah, yes, that’s nothing to do with formality, that’s a safety precaution.” Cecily said.
“A safety precaution?” Elizabeth replied, eyebrow raised.
“Yes, we don’t know who works for who out in the street, that’s why your father and I have repeatedly told you all not to order something from the streets, even from the most famous dress makers.” Cecily said, changing her tone to signal that she was reprimanding her daughter.
“Uh!” Elizabeth groaned. “That’s not right, Mother. If I don’t get this dress made, I won’t have anything appropriate to wear for the formal dinner that father has ordered us to attend at the end of the month.”
Cecily frowned. Whilst the tournament was just a rumour, Richard had insisted on having a formal dinner for the palace and the court. He said it would be good for morale, and truth be told, she wasn’t sure she could blame him. They needed something to keep their spirits up, as it seemed they were being hemmed in from all sides. Northumberland in the north, Shrewsbury and Buckingham in the middle, and the Lancastrian King in the south.
“You can take one of my dresses, if you want, sister.” Margaret Beaufort, her son Edmund’s wife said.
Cecily saw Elizabeth smile. “Are you sure?”
“Yes, it’s far too big for me, anyway.” Margaret replied.
“Thank you!” Elizabeth said.
Cecily smiled, she was glad that Elizabeth and Beaufort seemed to be getting along at least. Her own Margaret seemed indifferent to Beaufort, but that was perhaps only because they shared the same name and were perhaps of a similar temperament, though her Margaret would deny it, if told.
She was about to say something when a guard announced. “His Grace the King.” Immediately they all stood up, Cecily saw her husband walk in, he looked exhausted. They curtseyed and then he said. “Thank you, girls, you may be seated, Cecily, come with me.”
Cecily straightened up and walked to her husband, he offered her his arm, which she took and then they walked out of the room. Her husband said nothing until they were in another room, down the hallway from where she had just been. When he did, he spoke quietly. “Henry’s army has left Cornwall.”
Cecily stiffened. “How far away are they?”
“They’ve yet to actually cross into our territory, but our scouts say they’re in Devon. No doubt they will try and bring Bonville to their side.” Richard said.
“Will they succeed?” Cecily asked.
Richard shook his head. “No, Bonville is too tied to us, so there will be a fight there, which Bonville will lose.”
“Can you afford that?” Cecily asked, allowing an ally to just be wiped out like that wouldn’t look smart, unless spun the right way.
Richard sighed. “In the long term yes, in the short-term no. But I cannot afford to send men from here to there. We need to use Henry’s actions in Devon as a way to rally the undecided to our flag.”
Cecily nodded that was the smart thing to do, if Henry went on a rampage in Devon then more people would see him for the monster he truly was. “Has there been any word from Wales?”
“None. Dorset is playing a clever game. He’s waiting to see what happens before committing.” Richard said.
“And the marriage?” Cecily asked, she had never been comfortable with the betrothal of their Elizabeth to Somerset’s get.
“I’m going to break it off soon. I need to use her for a foreign marriage.” Richard said.
Cecily nodded. “What of Salisbury, are you sending him north?”
“No, I’m going to keep him here. We need all the men we have.” Richard said.
Cecily nodded and Richard looked at her and whispered. “God is on our side.” She only hoped her husband was right.
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Quantum Immortal
Banned
"Cecily frowned. Whilst the tournament was just a rumour, Richard had insisted on having a formal dinner for the palace and the court. He said it would be good for morale, and truth be told, she wasn’t sure she could blame him. They needed something to keep their spirits up, as it seemed they were being hemmed in from all sides. Northumberland in the north, Shrewsbury and Buckingham in the middle, and the King in the south."
Uhhh, *what* king in the south? The king's right there in London!
Uhhh, *what* king in the south?
The king's right there in London!VVD0D95
Banned
That's definitely going to be something.
"Cecily frowned. Whilst the tournament was just a rumour, Richard had insisted on having a formal dinner for the palace and the court. He said it would be good for morale, and truth be told, she wasn’t sure she could blame him. They needed something to keep their spirits up, as it seemed they were being hemmed in from all sides. Northumberland in the north, Shrewsbury and Buckingham in the middle, and the King in the south."
Uhhh, *what* king in the south?
Precisely, Cecily's taking a bit of time to get used to it.
Richard has two daughters to use, as the eldest is married (well unless Ursula survived, in that case he has three daughters available for foreign matches). Henry Beaufort, if he choose to support York, will need to content himself with another bride, likely chosen by Salisbury among his relatives.
Jonathan1997
Banned
Managed with burgundy makes a lot of senses riding Charles the bold is not killed in battle that is if Richard can have peace in England. But if that stated the as Army needs reforms and fight France would probably happened during his sons rule that is providing the war with Lancaster dies not last for a long time. We have to take in to consideration of the life Spam of people of this time Richard providing he eat appropriately unlike his son the future Edward IV OTL he could live a long time providing stress and injury does not kill him. I personal belief stress was responsible for the early deaths of Henry IV of England and Henry Vii of England and it was a bad lifestyle which killed Edward iV and Henry VIII. If you are picking a life spam I would go between 45 and 69 years you could even factor this into the story.
Chapter 110: Northumberland
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 110: Northumberland
March, 1459
March, 1459
“How many men do you have?” Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland asked the man sitting opposite him.
“Roughly 400 men have been raised. I can raise another two hundred.” The Earl of Westmoreland said. “How many men do you have?”
“Six hundred men. They are eager and waiting for action.” Henry said.
“Good.” Westmoreland replied.
It was strange for Henry. He hated one Neville but was working with another Neville. This Neville was less sanctimonious than the other Neville, and actually seemed like a decent person, which was a nice change. Henry had lost too many of his family members to working with idiots and evil. He could not have that anymore. Not when it was just him now.
“How soon do you want to march?” Henry asked.
“In the next few days, I think. The weather is meant to be good, and Salisbury’s garrison commander won’t expect it.” Westmoreland answered.
“Good.” Henry said, they’d been waiting for a while now to really get going, and with the King having set off from Cornwall, now seemed the perfect time to strike. “You are sure that you are fine with going for Cumberland not Yorkshire?” He knew that some of the land that Salisbury had in Yorkshire was technically Westmoreland’s, but the land in Cumberland had been in Henry’s family for generations, and he did not want that staying in Salisbury hands for a moment longer.
“I am.” Westmoreland replied. “There are good resources in that land and we will need them.”
“Agreed.” Henry said. “How do you want to go about structuring the attack?”
“I think it would make the most sense if I go first with my men.” Westmoreland said. “I’ve got Salisbury’s banner around here somewhere. I’ll have my women repair it and then we shall take it with us. They’ll expect to see Salisbury’s commanders riding at the head of the army, and will therefore be more willing to open their gates.”
“And you’re sure that the man you have for this is willing to go ahead with it?” Henry asked.
“Yes,” Westmoreland replied. “He knows he has no other choice to do so.”
Henry nodded, he wasn’t entirely sure if he wanted to know just how Westmoreland had convinced one of Salisbury’s retainers to turn, or even how he’d managed to get the man into his possession to begin with. After all, if things went wrong, then at least he’d have an out.
Westmoreland broke through the silence then. “After we’ve taken your lands back, we’re moving onto Yorkshire.”
It was more a statement than a question, but Henry nodded. “Of course.”
“And I want you to know that I won’t be like Salisbury. I will work with you to ensure that the elections go our way.” Westmoreland said.
“Good.” Henry said.
“There was one thing I wanted to check with you though.” Westmoreland said.
“And what was that?” Henry asked.
“Scotland.” Westmoreland said.
Henry frowned. “What about Scotland?”
“I know you and your brother had an agreement with King James for arms and supplies. I want in on that deal.” Westmoreland said.
Henry hesitated. That deal had been negotiated to prepare them for a fight with Salisbury. Once Salisbury was destroyed, Henry had every intention of ending the deal. If Westmoreland got involved, that would most definitely complicate things. “Why?” He asked then.
“Because I need to know that we are balanced.” Westmoreland said.
“Us?” Henry replied, his frown deepening.
“Yes, once Salisbury is gone, I need to know that we are not going to turn on one another.” Westmoreland said.
“And your way to do that, is by engaging in an arms deal that would technically be treasonous?” Henry asked.
“You’ve been engaged in it for years now.” Westmoreland pointed out.
“Yes, with the tacit consent of the King. I don’t intend to keep it going once Salisbury is done.” Henry said.
Westmoreland looked surprised by that. His eyes widened, and Henry could hear a subtle change in his breathing. When he spoke though, the man remained calm. “Very well.”
“And besides, I do not think we’re going to have the same problems I had with Salisbury, or that you had with Salisbury.” Henry said.
“Of course.” Westmoreland agreed.
There was a brief pause and then Henry continued. “Is there anything else that you feel we should discuss?”
Westmoreland shook his head and rose, which prompted Henry to do the same. “Very well, I shall see you when it is time to march.”
“Indeed you shall.” Westmoreland said. Henry watched as the man walked out of the room and then he sat back down.
Why had Westmoreland wanted to get involved in that arms agreement? Was there something else he was planning that Henry wasn’t aware of? Was there some other sinister game afoot? He didn’t know. And that was bothering him.