A Thorn In The Rose: A War Of The Roses TL

Alright I finally finished this. And ITS GREAT! So intricate. I feel like I need to take notes to keep a record of everyone, know who is who and who died while who lived. It's crazy. Also Margaret x Edmund forever!
 
Chapter 193: Despair
Chapter 193: Despair

March, 1467


“The King of France has married the York girl.” Margaret said, reading the letter that had come from her father.

“So quickly?” Edmund Beaufort, 3rd Duke of Somerset asked.

“Yes. It seems he saw an image of her and wanted to marry her as soon as he could.” Margaret said.

“So, what does this mean, Majesty?” Somerset asked.

Yes, what did it mean? That was a very good question and one that she wasn’t sure she had a clear answer to. Her father had said that he could convince the King of France to lend them support, but if the man was married to a York girl, how forthcoming that support would be, she did not know.

“We will have to wait and see. If their marriage is successful, then I think it would be best to abandon France. If their marriage is not successful, then perhaps we can hope.” Margaret said diplomatically.

Thankfully Somerset was smart enough to know what she meant, and therefore didn’t ask her to elaborate. Instead, he focused on something else. “York does seem to have consolidated his hold domestically. His reforms to the army process have been well received.”

Margaret dreaded to hear how he’d done that. Timidly she asked. “How so?”

“The King’s Lieutenancy Act that we heard about months ago has finally been implemented. The first of the King’s Lieutenants are heading to their posts as we speak.” Somerset said.

Margaret took a breath. So, the old ways had died then? When she had tried to introduce something similar her husband’s councillors had opposed her every step of the way. But when a young pup introduced it, the Kingdom demurred. She bristled at that.

“So, what does this mean for us in the long term?” Margaret asked. She knew what it meant in the short term. They would have to lay off unless they wanted to cause more headaches for those supporters they had left.

“We are going to have to try and undermine the Yorkist system from within, but it will be harder to do if we know that we can’t rely on the old loyalties.” Somerset said.

“You think those loyalties will change quite so quickly?” Trollope asked. The man had appeared in Nantes one day, after years of being in the shadows, and had quickly latched himself onto the council. Margaret wasn’t really sure if she trusted him or not though. He seemed far too slippery.

“Given that most of the King’s old allies have either died or been buried under so much paperwork that they will never emerge, and that their old hotspots have been taken up by Yorkist lords, I think so, yes.” Somerset said, gloomily.

“I would count them out quite so quickly, Your Grace.” Trollope said. “Oxford is in the heart of the Yorkist court, and we know that he has not quite been reconciled with the Yorkist boy. Northumberland still has influence in the north, and your sisters are serving as regents for Westmorland and Buckingham.”

“Trollope is right, Edmund.” Margaret said. Seizing on the last bit of hope that she could formally find. “All is not lost yet.”

Somerset frowned. “I do not know whether it is wise to count on my sisters. They care more for their own children than any loyalty to the King.”

Margaret couldn’t blame them for that. She wanted to protect her son as much as possible, but the only way she could really see herself being able to do that was by having him seated on the throne. That was why she said. “Oxford is still there at least.”

“Even his loyalty is doubtful, Majesty.” Somerset said. “He was the one who introduced the bill that saw my cousin restored to the succession.”

Margaret exhaled, frustrated. That bill had passed Parliament with no worries at all, and it had also hamstrung her options. Oxford, introducing it had been a stroke of genius, no doubt the Yorkist Beaufort woman had suggested that. Given Oxford’s former devotion to Margaret’s husband, the fact that he had introduced it would no doubt show that he had committed to the Yorkist cause. Hindering whatever hopes that Margaret might have had of using lingering trust.

“So, what do we do?” Margaret asked, her frustration making her voice higher.

“I have a working idea, Your Majesty.” Trollope said.

Margaret looked at him eyebrows raised. “And what is this idea?”

“It is a work in progress, but it will require me to travel back to England, Majesty.” Trollope said.

Margaret’s immediate instinct was to say no. Trollope hadn’t told her what his idea was, and if he needed to go back to England, he would probably turn coat. But, she didn’t know what else to do. So, she said. “I shall speak with the Duke and ensure that you get the necessary documents to board a Breton Ship.”

“Thank you, Majesty.” Trollope said.

Margaret nodded, she just hoped that this wasn’t a mistake.
 
“I have a working idea, Your Majesty.” Trollope said.

Margaret looked at him eyebrows raised. “And what is this idea?”

“It is a work in progress, but it will require me to travel back to England, Majesty.” Trollope said.

Assassination?
Always count on the inherentness of human stupidity.

Someone is always dumb enough to make things worse even when they think it is the right thing.
 
“So quickly?” Edmund Beaufort, 3rd Duke of Somerset asked.

Is that right? Title wise, I mean? Edmund was the 4th in OTL, and his father and grandfather were the 1st/2nd respectively? Should he not be the 4th?
Or did Henry, Earl of Dorset not become the Duke?
 
Is that right? Title wise, I mean? Edmund was the 4th in OTL, and his father and grandfather were the 1st/2nd respectively? Should he not be the 4th?
Or did Henry, Earl of Dorset not become the Duke?

Was looking at wiki to confirm and there Edmund's listed as 3rd Duke, of the second creation of 1448. With his father being the 1st Duke of the second creation, whilst his uncle John was 1st and only Duke of the 1st creation.
 
Under the succession premise that rhe lancastrians follow which was males first she’d be excluded no?
I know it's now settled by I suspect this is confusion with the ducal (Somerset) succession which is Salic. John's daughter Margaret should have been entitled to the Earldom though.
Is that right? Title wise, I mean? Edmund was the 4th in OTL, and his father and grandfather were the 1st/2nd respectively? Should he not be the 4th?
Or did Henry, Earl of Dorset not become the Duke?

Was looking at wiki to confirm and there Edmund's listed as 3rd Duke, of the second creation of 1448. With his father being the 1st Duke of the second creation, whilst his uncle John was 1st and only Duke of the 1st creation.
That's the consensus since the first creation only entitled it to John's sons not his brothers.
The earldom should have gone to Margaret under normal conditions but appears to have been "bestowed" on Edmund who later became the 1st Duke of the new creation, so it's possible John's Will named his brothers over his daughter.
 
I know it's now settled by I suspect this is confusion with the ducal (Somerset) succession which is Salic. John's daughter Margaret should have been entitled to the Earldom though.



That's the consensus since the first creation only entitled it to John's sons not his brothers.
The earldom should have gone to Margaret under normal conditions but appears to have been "bestowed" on Edmund who later became the 1st Duke of the new creation, so it's possible John's Will named his brothers over his daughter.

Ahhh interesting, cheers :)
 
I know it's now settled by I suspect this is confusion with the ducal (Somerset) succession which is Salic. John's daughter Margaret should have been entitled to the Earldom though.



That's the consensus since the first creation only entitled it to John's sons not his brothers.
The earldom should have gone to Margaret under normal conditions but appears to have been "bestowed" on Edmund who later became the 1st Duke of the new creation, so it's possible John's Will named his brothers over his daughter.
Most likely the Earldom of Somerset was restricted to the male line
 
Question: wouldnt Edmund be attained by now so hes the duke, earl or whatever of nothing but to himself and the dwindling lancastrians. Edmund I (long may he reign) can give it to Margaret just whenever or someone else.
 
Question: wouldnt Edmund be attained by now so hes the duke, earl or whatever of nothing but to himself and the dwindling lancastrians. Edmund I (long may he reign) can give it to Margaret just whenever or someone else.

Edmund Beaufort is indeed attainted, and yes, Edmund I could very well grand the Dukedom to whoever he wanted to.
 
Margaret exhaled, frustrated. That bill had passed Parliament with no worries at all, and it had also hamstrung her options. Oxford, introducing it had been a stroke of genius, no doubt the Yorkist Beaufort woman had suggested that. Given Oxford’s former devotion to Margaret’s husband, the fact that he had introduced it would no doubt show that he had committed to the Yorkist cause. Hindering whatever hopes that Margaret might have had of using lingering trust.

I think that bill will later bite Yorkists in the ass, Margaret's descendants are after all, three little children with no guarantee of any of them leaving issue on their own, and I strongly suspect that Trollope is going to undermine Margaret's position, perhaps producing evidence that Margaret was pre-contracted to marry Henry Somerset (safely dead, so he couldn't disagree) and her marriage to Edmund is illegitimate. Given George's distaste for being "spare prince" and him going to marry Isabel Neville (heiress to all Warwick's estates) and Salisbury (I think he was the Richard, Isabel's grandfather) still being alive, it seems like George could swallow the bait and go for the throne Richard III-style, thus driving wedge among Yorkists.
 
I think that bill will later bite Yorkists in the ass, Margaret's descendants are after all, three little children with no guarantee of any of them leaving issue on their own, and I strongly suspect that Trollope is going to undermine Margaret's position, perhaps producing evidence that Margaret was pre-contracted to marry Henry Somerset (safely dead, so he couldn't disagree) and her marriage to Edmund is illegitimate. Given George's distaste for being "spare prince" and him going to marry Isabel Neville (heiress to all Warwick's estates) and Salisbury (I think he was the Richard, Isabel's grandfather) still being alive, it seems like George could swallow the bait and go for the throne Richard III-style, thus driving wedge among Yorkists.
I’d love for this to be the case.
 
I think that bill will later bite Yorkists in the ass, Margaret's descendants are after all, three little children with no guarantee of any of them leaving issue on their own, and I strongly suspect that Trollope is going to undermine Margaret's position, perhaps producing evidence that Margaret was pre-contracted to marry Henry Somerset (safely dead, so he couldn't disagree) and her marriage to Edmund is illegitimate. Given George's distaste for being "spare prince" and him going to marry Isabel Neville (heiress to all Warwick's estates) and Salisbury (I think he was the Richard, Isabel's grandfather) still being alive, it seems like George could swallow the bait and go for the throne Richard III-style, thus driving wedge among Yorkists.

If Trollope were to produce such evidence, what's there to say that the King's lawyers don't destroy it?
 
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