VVD0D95
Banned
Under the succession premise that rhe lancastrians follow which was males first she’d be excluded no?
A Thorn In The Rose: A War Of The Roses TL
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No, the Lancastrians followed male-preference primogeniture. They just claimed the throne through them being the male heirs of Edward III and also claiming his entail (which put them ahead of the Mortimers) was in effect (which it could have been, I have read that it was and that it wasn’t in effect).
Hey VVDOD95, big fan, have been following this timeline since the onset (though have been shyly lurking for a long time), and have witnessed so much bloodshed from the Yorkists and Lancasters (both in text and out of text haha). Was wondering where you got all this knowledge for this and your other timelines (which I am starting to dip into), because I'd love to start my own timeline one of these days. I have a lot of ideas hanging around my head.
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VVD0D95
Banned
Hey! Ahh glad to hear you’re enjoying
.as to info? Discussions with board members, books, Wikipedia, the odd historical article
No, she was not. Specially as all the strongest claims about a possible Beaufort heir of Henry VI were tied to her husbands and not to her uncle/cousins
Yeah I thought so, though where did you get like army numbers for certain regions from? (Such as how much the Nevilles, Percys, Welsh, etc could raise).Hey! Ahh glad to hear you’re enjoying
as to info? Discussions with board members, books, Wikipedia, the odd historical article
Just to inform you that if you ever make a mistake, you can always count on your readers to let you know
Chapter 190: Mother To Mother
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 190: Mother To Mother
September, 1466
September, 1466
“Cecily is the loud one.” Margaret said to her mother. “She knows what she wants and she knows how to get it.”
Her mother laughed. “She sounds just like you and Agnes at her age.”
Margaret laughed as well. “More like Agnes, surely?”
“Oh no, you were quite demanding as a child as well. You gave your nurses quite the run around.” Mother said.
Margaret went to protest but then a vivid image of her storming around her mother’s castle demanding that she be read a specific story from a specific book floated into her mind and she stopped. She supposed she had been demanding.
“What exactly has Cecily been demanding this time around then?” Mother asked.
“Oh, she wants to ride on the bigger horses. Her pony isn’t good enough for her.” Margaret said. Cecily had made quite the fuss over it when they’d been at Windsor last month. Indeed, she’d broken down and cried when Edmund had taken Richard on his horse.
“Ah.” Mother said.
“What?” Margaret asked.
“That’s exactly like you.” Mother replied.
“What?!” Margaret exclaimed. “I never wanted to go on a full horse when I was her age!” She’d been terrified of horses at that age.
“You wanted to fight with a sword when your brothers started fighting with steel. It took a long time for us to convince you not to.” Mother said.
Margaret looked at her mother, she was tempted to disagree but she couldn’t really remember and so she simply said. “I suppose you’re right.” A comfortable silence settled between them then. It was nice, having her mother here. Things were still tense now and then. Mother still woke up screaming some nights, crying out for Lionel Welles, but for the most part she was playing the doting grandmother, and it was a burden lifted from Margaret’s shoulders.
She’d had to help Edmund deal with some things, the stress of being King sometimes overwhelmed him.
The silence was broken by her mother. “How come the King hasn’t returned you to the line of succession?”
The question was so unexpected, Margaret felt her mouth drop. “I’m sorry?”
“Why hasn’t the King returned you to the succession?” Mother asked again. “Your father’s family was in the succession until King Henry IV removed them, but why hasn’t he restored you. Doing so would end any chance of your cousins from trying to become claimants in the future.”
Margaret considered this. She supposed it did make sense. If she was restored to the succession, her and Edmund’s children would contain Mortimer, Lancastrian and Yorkist blood, thus being far superior in claim than anything that the boy in Nantes, or her cousins could hope to offer. But at the same time, there were other concerns.
“Where would I sit in the succession?” Margaret asked.
“Well, when your father’s family were legitimised and placed in the succession, they assumed their positions as if they had always been legitimate.” Mother said.
“So, that means I would be the heir to the Lancastrian claim?” Margaret asked.
“Yes.” Mother said. “I think it would be a smart thing to do.”
“And what about my cousins? Do you not think they’d try and use Henry IV’s entail to claim their place as Westminster’s heir?” Margaret asked.
Mother shook her head. “They don’t have the same recognition that their father or brother did. Their father was unpopular, their brother was popular and capable, the rest of them are unknown. The eldest one, Edmund, he’s an idiot. The other two are children. They won’t stand a chance.”
“Are you sure?” Margaret asked.
“Yes.” Mother replied. “I am.”
Margaret considered this, then said. “I shall raise it with the King.”
“Good.” Mother said smiling.
Margaret nodded, though she still harboured a little bit of doubt.
Because during the discussion as to why and why it should not be done, Edmund might say something that greatly offends Margaret.
But surely he would see the point of it? It still would not raise her claim above his, as their claim is through senior line of descent. Heck, he might be able to introduce that principle firmly at the same time and remind people that though Margaret has a claim it is far inferior to the Mortimer/York claim but still more superior to that of the other Beauforts as she is a descendant of the older son. Besides, Edmund does not seem to be the guy who would take offense to the idea... unless he has a major bad day that is
The major bad day seems to be hinted at, with all the references to how stressed he is, but who knows.
Chapter 191: Mother To Margaret
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 191: Mother to Margaret
September, 1466
September, 1466
“Margaret.” Cecily, Queen Dowager of England said as she entered her daughter’s room.
Her daughter Margaret got up and curtseyed, though she did so slowly and reluctantly. “Your Majesty.” Her daughter said.
“Sit.” Cecily commanded, she saw her daughter flinch and sighed. “Sorry, take a seat, sweetheart.” She softened her tone then.
Margaret sat down and then waited. Cecily took her seat and then looked at her daughter. She was a woman grown now, her hair was long and dark, her eyes were dark, she looked lovely. Anyone who married her would be lucky.
“The King tells me that you have refused to give him an answer.” Cecily said.
That was perhaps underselling it. The King had told her rather tiredly that when he had mentioned the betrothal to the King of France, Margaret had screamed at him and thrown a glass of wine over him. The King had not been best pleased at that. Since then, whenever he had tried to raise the issue with her, Margaret had run out of the room.
In a last-ditch effort, the King had come to her, and so here she was.
“I don’t want to marry a Frenchman.” Margaret said, in a tone that made her sound more like a little girl than a woman grown.
“Why?” Cecily asked.
“Because it would betray everything that father and you stood for.” Margaret replied.
Ah. Cecily thought to herself. In her surprise at the offer from Paris she had not stopped to think about just what this might mean to her daughter. Margaret had idolised her father, and rightly so. Richard had been a bold and charming man, daring and charismatic and powerful. And he’d raised their children on tales of his exploits in France. Or rather their servants had. She could understand why after hearing all of that, Margaret would not want to marry a Frenchman.
“How can you agree to this marriage?” Margaret asked then. “Does it not insult you?”
“It is a good marriage, Margaret.” Cecily replied.
“Is it?” Margaret asked. “I would be marrying a man who is King of an enemy Kingdom and whose Kingdom is enemies with Elizabeth’s husband’s Duchy.”
Cecily took a breath. That was true, Burgundy and France weren’t the best of friends, especially since Charles of Burgundy had married Elizabeth. But that presented an opportunity. “That is where you could make a difference.” Cecily said.
“How?” Margaret asked, frowning.
“You and Elizabeth know one another, and you both know how to work people. Elizabeth has her husband wrapped around her finger.” Cecily said. That didn’t surprise her, after all, she’d given him a son. “You know how to make people like you.” Margaret had the entirety of London eating out of her hand in a way the Queen hadn’t yet managed.
“And how will that make a difference?” Margaret asked.
“You can win the King of France over to your side. Ensure that he listens to you, and keeps the peace with Burgundy.” Cecily said.
“How?” Margaret asked.
Cecily smiled. “You are a beautiful woman, Margaret. The King of France is a man like any other, use your personality and your charms, and you will have him eating out of your hand.”
She could tell that Margaret was intrigued by this, and who wouldn’t be. France was nothing to sniff at.
“You are sure?” Margaret eventually asked.
“I am.” Cecily answered, she wasn’t really, but her daughter didn’t need to know that.
Margaret said nothing then as she considered what Cecily had said. Cecily could see her mind working quickly, trying to process different options and choices, and when Margaret’s eyebrows rose, Cecily knew her daughter had come to a decision. “Fine.” Her daughter said. “I’ll go through with it.”
Cecily smiled. “Good.” She stood up and embraced her daughter then. “Your father would be so proud of you.”
Chapter 192: Succession
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 192: Succession?
November, 1466
November, 1466
“Your suggestion to get Mother involved was the right one, my love.” Edmund said, looking at his wife as they lay in bed together.
“Oh?” Margaret replied.
“Yes. Our sister agreed to marry the King of France, and the man was still interested by the time the proposal reached him. So, they will be getting married in the new year.” Edmund said.
“That’s good.” Margaret said, yawning. Edmund took one of her curls into his finger and played with it. “How has Burgundy reacted?”
Edmund let go of the curl and kissed the top of Margaret’s head. “Surprisingly well. I think Elizabeth may have had a hand in that. Or at least in shaping how her husband reacted to the news and thus how his father reacted to the news.”
“That’s good.” Margaret said, turning slightly to look at him.
Not for the first time, Edmund found himself amazed that this woman, this smart and incredible woman was his wife. “So, do you think this will achieve what you want it to?” Margaret asked.
“I think so.” Edmund said. “Brittany is surrounded by hostile states now. Francis is not a fool; he knows he cannot win a war against both us and France. If it came down to it, I think he’d offer the boy and the boy’s mother on a plate.”
“That’s good. I do not want our new son or daughter to be born in another war scenario.” Margaret said, her hands straying to her belly. Edmund felt his own hands going to her belly as well. Margaret was only two moons along, and much could happen or change in that time, but they were both confident that there would be another girl or boy joining their other children in the nursery.
“I am sure that there will not be another war.” Edmund said. “At least, there won’t be if Francis has any sense.”
“And do you think he does?” Margaret asked.
Edmund exhaled. “I think so. The man still needs an heir, his attempts to marry again have faltered thanks to the pressure we and the French have applied, but we can’t keep that going forever.”
Margaret nodded, and then through another yawn said. “There’s another way you could apply pressure in a domestic sense.”
“And what’s that?” Edmund asked, wondering what scheme his wife had cooked up now.
“You could place me back in the succession.” Margaret said softly.
“Sorry?” Edmund asked, unsure if he’d misheard his wife or not.
“You could put me back in the succession.” Margaret repeated. “My father and his family were placed in the succession when they were legitimised, they were removed by an entail done by Henry IV. Since the Lancastrian regime has been so thoroughly dismantled, restoring me into the succession shouldn’t be a challenge.”
Edmund considered this. He supposed it made sense, his wife would be the senior descendant of John of Gaunt in the succession if he allowed her back into it. But at the same time, it did seem somewhat unnecessary. “What benefit would it bring?” He asked.
“It would unite the Mortimer and Lancastrian claim through marriage.” Margaret replied. “And ensure that our children are recognised as the co-heirs of those two claims, officially ending the argument once and for all.”
“You think so?” Edmund asked. “Didn’t Henry IV establish male only succession?” He seemed to recall learning that in one of his lessons.
“For his sons yes, but after that the succession went back to normalcy. And given the act that was passed during the reign of Edward III, none of his daughters or their descendants are in the succession. So, that leaves my family.” Margaret said, she rose then so that she was facing him. Her hair was to her right side. “Put me back into the succession, and the Lancastrians will have to come onside.”
“Why?” Edmund asked, frowning. He didn’t quite follow the logic.
“Well, those using legal arguments will have no choice but to follow the law of the land. Those who are sticking with their gut and emotion will have to concede. After all, nobody knows anything about the other Beaufort boys.” Margaret said.
Edmund sighed. His wife made sense. He could introduce an Act of Parliament to make it all completely clear. There was just one problem though. “I’ll need to get my hands on the boy first.”
“Well, you could start the proceedings by introducing an Act into Parliament. Do that and you’ll reduce the value that my cousins pose to Francis.” Margaret said.
Edmund considered this. His wife was right. The Beauforts were only worth Francis’ while if he thought they might appeal to some core group of Lancastrians, if he introduced an Act that put his wife back into the succession, given the attainder against Westminster, that meant his wife was the rightful heiress of John of Gaunt. Any Lancastrian worth their salt would need to change tack. Reducing the base for the Beauforts.
He exhaled. “Very well, I’ll introduce it at the next sitting.”
Margaret surprised him then by leaning up to kiss him. She pulled back and smiled. “Thank you.” Edmund grinned and pulled her back to him, causing her to squeal. He started kissing her neck.
Aww i love how happy they are together! hopefully edmund's attempts to put margaret back in the line of succession are successful.
It seems that all truly is at peace with Margaret and Edmund... I can't wait to see what wrecks it in the future haha