A tale of Vietnam: Con rồng trở lại và ruồi phượng hoàng
- Thread starter La Rouge Beret
- Start date
La Rouge Beret
Donor
The miracle on the Mekong
It should not be surprising that the Royal Lao Army collapsed with the initial onslaught by the Pathet Lao, in several cases a rumour of an attack was enough to induce a retreat. The two exceptions to this were the Hmong tribesman led by General Vang Pao, who became isolated in their beloved hills and Major Thao Ty whose ability to unite the disorganized rabble and conduct a fighting withdrawal from Luang Prabang to the Laotian capital Vientianne allowed the apparatus of government to retreat.
The first country to act was Thailand threatened by a potential communist base on their borders inciting their indigenous communist guerillas. Field Marshall Phin Choonhavan recommended that the Royal Thai Army act unilaterally to defend their borders by deploying a brigade of volunteers several kilometres to the east of the Mekong. The General Staffs from the Kingdom of Cambodia (‘KOC’) and the Kingdom of Vietnam (‘KOV’) recommended the involvement of their respective militaries to protect their borders. Acting upon the recommendations each government beseeched the Kingdom of Lao (‘KOL’) offering their assistance if required. Facing the collapse of their country and identifying that time was against their country, Prime Minister Souvanna Phouma reluctantly acquiesced.
The 1st and 2nd battalion of the Vietnamese airborne division jumped forty miles north of Savannakhet the capital city in Savannakhet province. There they waited for their relief by Vietnamese reinforcements. A stick from the first battalion is shown loading a C-47 below.
The intervention from three neighbouring countries surprised the leadership of the Pathet Lao and an uneasy stalemate developed with the communists controlling the north eastern part of the country and the KOL retained control over the remainder.
The failure of the offensive by the Pathet Lao did not go unnoticed and the opportunity to divert the attention of the West to this isolated part of South East Asia was soon to be utilised. The North Vietnamese and Chinese advisers were furious with their Laotian charges for wasting an opportunity to reunite their country under Communism. Each side lobbied their respective governments for an expansion of their support to their fraternal brother.
It should not be surprising that the Royal Lao Army collapsed with the initial onslaught by the Pathet Lao, in several cases a rumour of an attack was enough to induce a retreat. The two exceptions to this were the Hmong tribesman led by General Vang Pao, who became isolated in their beloved hills and Major Thao Ty whose ability to unite the disorganized rabble and conduct a fighting withdrawal from Luang Prabang to the Laotian capital Vientianne allowed the apparatus of government to retreat.
The first country to act was Thailand threatened by a potential communist base on their borders inciting their indigenous communist guerillas. Field Marshall Phin Choonhavan recommended that the Royal Thai Army act unilaterally to defend their borders by deploying a brigade of volunteers several kilometres to the east of the Mekong. The General Staffs from the Kingdom of Cambodia (‘KOC’) and the Kingdom of Vietnam (‘KOV’) recommended the involvement of their respective militaries to protect their borders. Acting upon the recommendations each government beseeched the Kingdom of Lao (‘KOL’) offering their assistance if required. Facing the collapse of their country and identifying that time was against their country, Prime Minister Souvanna Phouma reluctantly acquiesced.
The 1st and 2nd battalion of the Vietnamese airborne division jumped forty miles north of Savannakhet the capital city in Savannakhet province. There they waited for their relief by Vietnamese reinforcements. A stick from the first battalion is shown loading a C-47 below.
The intervention from three neighbouring countries surprised the leadership of the Pathet Lao and an uneasy stalemate developed with the communists controlling the north eastern part of the country and the KOL retained control over the remainder.
The failure of the offensive by the Pathet Lao did not go unnoticed and the opportunity to divert the attention of the West to this isolated part of South East Asia was soon to be utilised. The North Vietnamese and Chinese advisers were furious with their Laotian charges for wasting an opportunity to reunite their country under Communism. Each side lobbied their respective governments for an expansion of their support to their fraternal brother.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Thoughts / comments regarding the TL.
At this stage I am thinking of tying this up within a couple of posts and then rewriting to include more information in my next installment.
Happy to hear your ideas.
At this stage I am thinking of tying this up within a couple of posts and then rewriting to include more information in my next installment.
Happy to hear your ideas.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
The battle of Muong Phine
The evening was dull and overcast, coating the valley in shades of grey at dusk. First Lieutenant Feng Gao a Korean War veteran from the 39th Army was impatient waiting to destroy the remaining imperialist forces across the valley. He gazed at the enemy across the valley and wondered whether they would provide more fight then their allies at Tchepone? After all his army in Korea was responsible for the destruction two American Cavalry regiments 1st and 8th ... how hard could these hastily cobbled together forces be? Operation North Star had already broken the back of the Royal Laotian army and shortly the remainder of the coalition forces.
The Chinese volunteer army was based on the 39th Army and led by General Chen Geng. Following the experiences in Korea Marshall Peng De Hau had implemented a modernisation program of the People’s Liberation Army, accordingly the volunteer arm was well armed and trained. At the commencement of Operation North Star the 39th Army routed the Laotian Army at Tchepone and was poised to splinter the impasse that had developed over the proceeding eighteen months. From this strike the Chinese envisaged that they could rout the remaining coalition forces east and west allowing Laos to be united communist rule. General Chen Geng prioritised speed in the southern due to the limited interaction of both aircraft and armoured vehicles in the campaign by the coalition. The 11th, and 13th Volunteer battalions were accompanied by three battalions of Pathet Lao, a Katyusha rocket battery and eight T-34-85. However their rapid advance meant that they were without their Type 56 artillery pieces or their heavy anti aircraft weapons this was to prove a serious omission.
The 1st Cambodian regiment had their flank exposed by the rout of the Laotian forces at Tchepone and were decimated by the Chinese advance. It was their steadfastness in defence that provided the time needed for the Vietnamese and Thai forces to fortify their positions. When the Cambodian soldiers eventually withdrew with the assistance of Hmong irregulars led by General Vang Pao, they were reduced to little more than the size of a company.
The Chinese vanguard faced two units, the second battalion of the Fourth division of the Kingdom of Vietnam (“KOV”) and the Fourth battalion of the 21st Royal Thai Regiment (“RTR”). The Fourth division of the KOV did not have the tradition of the First division, the elan of the Paratroopers nor the pride of the armoured corps. In fact the fourth division had been considered unlucky due to four being an inauspicious number. On that fateful day they settled for the excellent leadership of Colonel Van Vien and entrenched field positions at Muong Phine. Guarding their left flank were soldiers from the 21st RTR. They had previously served in Korea, where they had earned the monikers of ‘Little Tigers’ and this would be reinforced over the coming forty eight hours.
Both of the battalions deployed across the summits and on the reverse sheer slopes in separate company sized defensive positions, creating a series of strong-points across a 7-kilometre front. Due to the large amount of ground to be defended each of the companies were spread widely, and were unable to offer mutual support. Instead each platoon would support each other, with each company adopting an all-round defence. Identifying the importance of the position the Vietnamese Army commander General Pham van Dong detached twelve M-41 Bulldog tanks from the 1st Armoured regiment with two batteries of 105 mm artillery.
During the night the forward elements of the Chinese army probed both battalions attempting to take prisoners to gain information for the coming day and noting the positional lay out of the enemy formations. A night of hand to hand fighting characterised the night for both enemies. Bravo Company ably led by Captain Le Minh Dao was hit particularly hard by the Chinese as it was exposed on the valley floor with Alpha Company during the course of the evening. The Chinese soldiers infiltrated between the two company positions and subjected both companies to plunging enfilade file from defilade positions. The Chinese employed an approach known as one point two sides concentrating their fire to the front of an enemy position and then launching an envelopment assault on the exposed flanks. During the evening Captain Dao personally led the counterattack with several injured soldiers to retake the outer trenches. At the break of dawn Bravo company still held its position.
The Thai Commanding Officer listened to the multiple attacks launched on the Vietnamese during the evening and withdrew his exposed Charlie Company to strengthen his right flank in the event of a Vietnamese withdrawal. During the night a Vietnamese airborne battalion arrived and was held in reserve for the next day.
The next day of fighting occurred during day light with Alpha and Bravo companies remaining in situ neither able to advance nor withdraw subjected to indirect mortar fire. A counter attack was launched at 07:15 a.m. to clear the north eastern peak and their accurate Chinese mortar teams. The attack was led by the 3rd Airborne Battalion supported by a creeping barrage from the 105mm guns. By 09:32 a.m the paratroopers cleared the peak and began to entrench their position.
The Colonel Shan Yiu launched an immediate counterattack on the peak, led by the 13th battalion and supported with four T-34 tanks. Prior to their assault, the Vietnamese position, was subjected to a whirlwind barrage from Katyusha rockets. The ferocity of the attack led to the paratroopers nearly being overrun, however it was the intervention of 4 M-41 Bulldogs that prevented their annihilation. Fighting at point blank range the tank engagement degenerated into a brawling match, paralleling the bloody hand to hand fighting that was occurring on the peak. The Vietnamese armoured corps with a better training system and greater hitting power destroyed the attacking T-34s. Gradually Vought F-4 Corsairs from the Royal Vietnamese Air Force arrived and began to hunt the remaining artillery batteries and T-34’s. In liaising between the nation’s two forces the lingua franca was unsurprisingly French, hence the amusing story of a Thai forward observer coordinating air support in French with a Vietnamese pilot.
Insert above: 1st Armoured Regiment M-41's at the form up point prior to the counter attack.
The Chinese staff identified that the Vietnamese had strengthened their position, pivoted their attack westwards hitting the Thai positions. They announced their attack with the launch of the remaining Katyusha rockets. Dug in and possessing effective fire support, from their own mortars deployed at company level and the Vietnamese artillery the Thais survived the onslaught.
Insert above: A Thai mortar team in action during the battle
Unable to break the allied line and recognising the material and manpower cost of four days of fighting. The remaining elements of the 11th and 13th volunteer battalions with their Laotian counterparts withdrew north to Tchepone. The Kingdom of Laos survived and the story of a joint Thai – Vietnamese coalition stopping the communist advance broke to much acclaim in the free world. This battle was to lead to the deployment of the T-59 and the Mig-17 to the battlefield, much to the shock of the coalition... but that was in the future.
The evening was dull and overcast, coating the valley in shades of grey at dusk. First Lieutenant Feng Gao a Korean War veteran from the 39th Army was impatient waiting to destroy the remaining imperialist forces across the valley. He gazed at the enemy across the valley and wondered whether they would provide more fight then their allies at Tchepone? After all his army in Korea was responsible for the destruction two American Cavalry regiments 1st and 8th ... how hard could these hastily cobbled together forces be? Operation North Star had already broken the back of the Royal Laotian army and shortly the remainder of the coalition forces.
The Chinese volunteer army was based on the 39th Army and led by General Chen Geng. Following the experiences in Korea Marshall Peng De Hau had implemented a modernisation program of the People’s Liberation Army, accordingly the volunteer arm was well armed and trained. At the commencement of Operation North Star the 39th Army routed the Laotian Army at Tchepone and was poised to splinter the impasse that had developed over the proceeding eighteen months. From this strike the Chinese envisaged that they could rout the remaining coalition forces east and west allowing Laos to be united communist rule. General Chen Geng prioritised speed in the southern due to the limited interaction of both aircraft and armoured vehicles in the campaign by the coalition. The 11th, and 13th Volunteer battalions were accompanied by three battalions of Pathet Lao, a Katyusha rocket battery and eight T-34-85. However their rapid advance meant that they were without their Type 56 artillery pieces or their heavy anti aircraft weapons this was to prove a serious omission.
The 1st Cambodian regiment had their flank exposed by the rout of the Laotian forces at Tchepone and were decimated by the Chinese advance. It was their steadfastness in defence that provided the time needed for the Vietnamese and Thai forces to fortify their positions. When the Cambodian soldiers eventually withdrew with the assistance of Hmong irregulars led by General Vang Pao, they were reduced to little more than the size of a company.
The Chinese vanguard faced two units, the second battalion of the Fourth division of the Kingdom of Vietnam (“KOV”) and the Fourth battalion of the 21st Royal Thai Regiment (“RTR”). The Fourth division of the KOV did not have the tradition of the First division, the elan of the Paratroopers nor the pride of the armoured corps. In fact the fourth division had been considered unlucky due to four being an inauspicious number. On that fateful day they settled for the excellent leadership of Colonel Van Vien and entrenched field positions at Muong Phine. Guarding their left flank were soldiers from the 21st RTR. They had previously served in Korea, where they had earned the monikers of ‘Little Tigers’ and this would be reinforced over the coming forty eight hours.
Both of the battalions deployed across the summits and on the reverse sheer slopes in separate company sized defensive positions, creating a series of strong-points across a 7-kilometre front. Due to the large amount of ground to be defended each of the companies were spread widely, and were unable to offer mutual support. Instead each platoon would support each other, with each company adopting an all-round defence. Identifying the importance of the position the Vietnamese Army commander General Pham van Dong detached twelve M-41 Bulldog tanks from the 1st Armoured regiment with two batteries of 105 mm artillery.
During the night the forward elements of the Chinese army probed both battalions attempting to take prisoners to gain information for the coming day and noting the positional lay out of the enemy formations. A night of hand to hand fighting characterised the night for both enemies. Bravo Company ably led by Captain Le Minh Dao was hit particularly hard by the Chinese as it was exposed on the valley floor with Alpha Company during the course of the evening. The Chinese soldiers infiltrated between the two company positions and subjected both companies to plunging enfilade file from defilade positions. The Chinese employed an approach known as one point two sides concentrating their fire to the front of an enemy position and then launching an envelopment assault on the exposed flanks. During the evening Captain Dao personally led the counterattack with several injured soldiers to retake the outer trenches. At the break of dawn Bravo company still held its position.
The Thai Commanding Officer listened to the multiple attacks launched on the Vietnamese during the evening and withdrew his exposed Charlie Company to strengthen his right flank in the event of a Vietnamese withdrawal. During the night a Vietnamese airborne battalion arrived and was held in reserve for the next day.
The next day of fighting occurred during day light with Alpha and Bravo companies remaining in situ neither able to advance nor withdraw subjected to indirect mortar fire. A counter attack was launched at 07:15 a.m. to clear the north eastern peak and their accurate Chinese mortar teams. The attack was led by the 3rd Airborne Battalion supported by a creeping barrage from the 105mm guns. By 09:32 a.m the paratroopers cleared the peak and began to entrench their position.
The Colonel Shan Yiu launched an immediate counterattack on the peak, led by the 13th battalion and supported with four T-34 tanks. Prior to their assault, the Vietnamese position, was subjected to a whirlwind barrage from Katyusha rockets. The ferocity of the attack led to the paratroopers nearly being overrun, however it was the intervention of 4 M-41 Bulldogs that prevented their annihilation. Fighting at point blank range the tank engagement degenerated into a brawling match, paralleling the bloody hand to hand fighting that was occurring on the peak. The Vietnamese armoured corps with a better training system and greater hitting power destroyed the attacking T-34s. Gradually Vought F-4 Corsairs from the Royal Vietnamese Air Force arrived and began to hunt the remaining artillery batteries and T-34’s. In liaising between the nation’s two forces the lingua franca was unsurprisingly French, hence the amusing story of a Thai forward observer coordinating air support in French with a Vietnamese pilot.
Insert above: 1st Armoured Regiment M-41's at the form up point prior to the counter attack.
The Chinese staff identified that the Vietnamese had strengthened their position, pivoted their attack westwards hitting the Thai positions. They announced their attack with the launch of the remaining Katyusha rockets. Dug in and possessing effective fire support, from their own mortars deployed at company level and the Vietnamese artillery the Thais survived the onslaught.
Insert above: A Thai mortar team in action during the battle
Unable to break the allied line and recognising the material and manpower cost of four days of fighting. The remaining elements of the 11th and 13th volunteer battalions with their Laotian counterparts withdrew north to Tchepone. The Kingdom of Laos survived and the story of a joint Thai – Vietnamese coalition stopping the communist advance broke to much acclaim in the free world. This battle was to lead to the deployment of the T-59 and the Mig-17 to the battlefield, much to the shock of the coalition... but that was in the future.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
I would say more mission creep to a point.
The PLA will never allow their full strength to be deployed within Laos and the end result will be a negotiated peace process. A similar process / conflict would be the South Africans in Angola.
Elements within the Chinese Communist party will use the opportunity to press for a resolution on the Taiwan issue.
SEATO will become involved, accordingly Avon Sabres will be flying above the rice paddies in Laos... as I have always wanted to work in an operational deployment against Mig 15's / 17's.
The PLA will never allow their full strength to be deployed within Laos and the end result will be a negotiated peace process. A similar process / conflict would be the South Africans in Angola.
Elements within the Chinese Communist party will use the opportunity to press for a resolution on the Taiwan issue.
SEATO will become involved, accordingly Avon Sabres will be flying above the rice paddies in Laos... as I have always wanted to work in an operational deployment against Mig 15's / 17's.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
The Crest of the Wave: Royal Australian Air Force deployment to Laos
The Australian Government is now in receipt of a request from the Government of the Kingdom of Laos for further military assistance. We have decided - and this has been done after close consultation with the Government of the United States, Thailand and Vietnam - to provide a fighter squadron for service in Laos…. The takeover of Laos would be a direct military threat to Australia and all the countries of South and South-East Asia.
Excerpt from Prime Minister Robert Menzies' speech in Parliament, 29 July 1958
The speech to parliament by Prime Minister Menzies inaugurated Australian involvement in the Laotian Civil War. Intelligence reports from unidentified American sources predicted the eventual deployment of Mig – 17 fighters in support of the communist forces in Laos. When the Mig – 17’s were deployed, the piston engine fighters of the Royal Thai Air Force and the Royal Vietnamese Air Force were severely outclassed. Air superiority was soon established by the communist forces and this allowed the Communist forces complete freedom of manoeuvre. This strategic freedom threatened the ability of the non communist forces to maintain their support of the Kingdom of Laos.
Air Chief Marshall Scherger KBE, CB, DSO, AFC recommended to the Minister for Defence that the Royal Australia Air Force (“RAAF”) deploy a detachment of Avon Sabres to Laos to contest communist air superiority. After a heated cabinet session the detachment by the reformed 79 Squadron received the approval from the Prime Minister.
On 3 August 1958 ten F-86F Sabre Mk 32 jet fighters were deployed from RAAF units at Butterworth, Malaya, were sent to Singapore, where eight of the aircraft formed into No 79 Squadron. The new unit flew into an airfield located at Pakse, Laos. During the next week following the deployment, RAAF C-130 Hercules from Richmond, New South Wales, flew in a base squadron of 200 men and 450 tonnes of supplies and equipment to establish a tented camp.
The squadron was based at Pakse in southern Laos and flew its first operational patrol four days later. Facilities at Pakse were initially spartan, and the pilots and ground crew lived in tents. Construction of permanent accommodation began under the supervision of No 3 Air Construction Regiment in Pakse and facilities were later improved. Due to the threat of counter attacks on Pakse, the base’s ground defences included a detachment of RAAF airfield defence guards. Operational control was routed through a Joint Headquarters with Cambodian, Thai and Vietnamese officers in French, much to the chargrin of the senior RAAF officers. Fortuidously there were sufficient officers from several notable Australian public schools that had sufficient French to ensure a robust level of communication.
A Most Auspicious Day - 10 August 1958
The second combat air patrol developed into the first air battle since the Korean War for the RAAF, when eight MiG-17s from the 46th Regiment/16th Division PLAAF engaged four F-86s over Moung Phine. Shao Wei Zhou Chun-Fu was credited with downing two Sabre before being killed. The war diary kept by Number 79 Squadron reported no aircraft lost on that day although two had significant battle damage. In fact, it seems that claims for Zhou’s kills were only the first in a whole series of claims credited by the Chinese to their killed pilots: significantly, there were to be additional similar reports, and each time two kills were credited to killed pilots.
The RAAF records list a combat air patrol to the north east of Moung Phine by fours F-86 Sabres from Number 79 squadron. The aircraft were led by Squadron Leader Lyle Klaffer a Korean war veteran who deployed them in the classic finger four flying northwards. Some 10 miles south of Tchepone they detected eight MiG-17s, at 3 o’clock low and attacked. Sabres #1 thru #4 bounced the rear section of four MiGs, while the front four MiG-17 disengaged after Sabre #3 fired a long ineffectual burst at a range of greater than a kilometre.
Sabres #1 and #2 flown by Squadron Leader Lyle Klaffer and Flying Officer Maurice Dunand went after MiG #6, firing from a dive and shorter ranges, and Squadron Leader Klaffer reported seeing it go down in flames ater three bursts from their cannons. According to some Chinese reports the pilot was killed; other accounts claim he survived.
Meanwhile, Sabres #3 and #4 flown by Flight Lieutenant Howard Paquin and Pilot Officer Jonathon Tracey attacked MiG #7 and #8. The last Mig was flown by Shao Wei Zhou Chun-Fu and was shot down on the first pass leaving a smouldering heap in the jungle. MiG #7 flown by Zhong Wei Song En-lai zoom climbed evading Pilot Officer’s Tracey snap attack. Lieutenant Zhong was subsequently attacked by Flight Lieutenant Paquin, although he was able to disengage with the remaining Migs and return to Tchepone. After the battle US signal intelligence reported that only one of four MiGs engaged returned to their base.
Picture: An Avon Sabre at Pakse, Laos.
The Australian Government is now in receipt of a request from the Government of the Kingdom of Laos for further military assistance. We have decided - and this has been done after close consultation with the Government of the United States, Thailand and Vietnam - to provide a fighter squadron for service in Laos…. The takeover of Laos would be a direct military threat to Australia and all the countries of South and South-East Asia.
Excerpt from Prime Minister Robert Menzies' speech in Parliament, 29 July 1958
The speech to parliament by Prime Minister Menzies inaugurated Australian involvement in the Laotian Civil War. Intelligence reports from unidentified American sources predicted the eventual deployment of Mig – 17 fighters in support of the communist forces in Laos. When the Mig – 17’s were deployed, the piston engine fighters of the Royal Thai Air Force and the Royal Vietnamese Air Force were severely outclassed. Air superiority was soon established by the communist forces and this allowed the Communist forces complete freedom of manoeuvre. This strategic freedom threatened the ability of the non communist forces to maintain their support of the Kingdom of Laos.
Air Chief Marshall Scherger KBE, CB, DSO, AFC recommended to the Minister for Defence that the Royal Australia Air Force (“RAAF”) deploy a detachment of Avon Sabres to Laos to contest communist air superiority. After a heated cabinet session the detachment by the reformed 79 Squadron received the approval from the Prime Minister.
On 3 August 1958 ten F-86F Sabre Mk 32 jet fighters were deployed from RAAF units at Butterworth, Malaya, were sent to Singapore, where eight of the aircraft formed into No 79 Squadron. The new unit flew into an airfield located at Pakse, Laos. During the next week following the deployment, RAAF C-130 Hercules from Richmond, New South Wales, flew in a base squadron of 200 men and 450 tonnes of supplies and equipment to establish a tented camp.
The squadron was based at Pakse in southern Laos and flew its first operational patrol four days later. Facilities at Pakse were initially spartan, and the pilots and ground crew lived in tents. Construction of permanent accommodation began under the supervision of No 3 Air Construction Regiment in Pakse and facilities were later improved. Due to the threat of counter attacks on Pakse, the base’s ground defences included a detachment of RAAF airfield defence guards. Operational control was routed through a Joint Headquarters with Cambodian, Thai and Vietnamese officers in French, much to the chargrin of the senior RAAF officers. Fortuidously there were sufficient officers from several notable Australian public schools that had sufficient French to ensure a robust level of communication.
A Most Auspicious Day - 10 August 1958
The second combat air patrol developed into the first air battle since the Korean War for the RAAF, when eight MiG-17s from the 46th Regiment/16th Division PLAAF engaged four F-86s over Moung Phine. Shao Wei Zhou Chun-Fu was credited with downing two Sabre before being killed. The war diary kept by Number 79 Squadron reported no aircraft lost on that day although two had significant battle damage. In fact, it seems that claims for Zhou’s kills were only the first in a whole series of claims credited by the Chinese to their killed pilots: significantly, there were to be additional similar reports, and each time two kills were credited to killed pilots.
The RAAF records list a combat air patrol to the north east of Moung Phine by fours F-86 Sabres from Number 79 squadron. The aircraft were led by Squadron Leader Lyle Klaffer a Korean war veteran who deployed them in the classic finger four flying northwards. Some 10 miles south of Tchepone they detected eight MiG-17s, at 3 o’clock low and attacked. Sabres #1 thru #4 bounced the rear section of four MiGs, while the front four MiG-17 disengaged after Sabre #3 fired a long ineffectual burst at a range of greater than a kilometre.
Sabres #1 and #2 flown by Squadron Leader Lyle Klaffer and Flying Officer Maurice Dunand went after MiG #6, firing from a dive and shorter ranges, and Squadron Leader Klaffer reported seeing it go down in flames ater three bursts from their cannons. According to some Chinese reports the pilot was killed; other accounts claim he survived.
Meanwhile, Sabres #3 and #4 flown by Flight Lieutenant Howard Paquin and Pilot Officer Jonathon Tracey attacked MiG #7 and #8. The last Mig was flown by Shao Wei Zhou Chun-Fu and was shot down on the first pass leaving a smouldering heap in the jungle. MiG #7 flown by Zhong Wei Song En-lai zoom climbed evading Pilot Officer’s Tracey snap attack. Lieutenant Zhong was subsequently attacked by Flight Lieutenant Paquin, although he was able to disengage with the remaining Migs and return to Tchepone. After the battle US signal intelligence reported that only one of four MiGs engaged returned to their base.
Picture: An Avon Sabre at Pakse, Laos.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Thanks mate.
I was thinking about wrapping this up in the next two posts. Thoughts / comments /requests.
When you do reboot it, I don't really want to see a communist South Vietnam and a Western-friendly North. Of course that's just my request, feel free to disregard that.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
When you do reboot it, I don't really want to see a communist South Vietnam and a Western-friendly North. Of course that's just my request, feel free to disregard that.
Yeah that was my original thought, but I am now going to have a VNQDD united Vietnam. Plus my standard amount of political intrigue, Cambodia and Laos will have a greater amount of problems and there will be regional skirmish with China as well.
This also allows me to have a greater breadth of talent, so in my reboot Mr Giap will draft the constitution and be one of the first judges appointed to the High Court.
Originally I didn't want to screw Cambodia as it is one of my favourite countries - however with where I wanted to go timeline wise it meant that some country had to draw the short straw. I assuaged my guilt with drafting a Cambodia wank in pre 1900 section.
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Hey man, great TL. I've always had a soft-spot for IOTL-doomed anti-communist Asian countries, and Vietnam is especially interesting since I have family who work there, although I'm not Viet (I'm actually holidaying in Hanoi right now). Sub-goddamn-scribed.
Just a few things I have to note on:
Don't reverse the North-South Roles in the revised timeline. If you do it just to give the anti-Reds more population to work with, it'll take the TL firmly into wank territory which I personally think it has avoided so far (others will contest this). Also, the South was the first place that the French conquered and made into their colony of Cochin-Chine, meaning their influence would be much stronger there, and the Viet Minh have less of a hold on at least the urban population. Additionally the only two major cities in the North would be Hanoi and Haiphong, and although the latter is a large port city, getting industrialisation and the like going might be more difficult. Another point is that since you've made South Vietnam a constitutional monarchy, keeping the old imperial capitol of Hue could be an important issue for them.
Also I guess it's kinda been ingrained into my mind that North is Communist and South isn't.
Another point, on pop culture. You mentioned that the Americans won't be in Vietnam in as full a force as they were IOTL. This might have quite on impact on especially popular music, since the Yanks pretty much introduced the Viets to rock and soul, resulting in awesomeness like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQRHiL0RN0E
I'm also interested in the lasting influence of the French, since even here in the North cafés are all over and a baguette is just as common a breakfast food as pho.
Just a few things I have to note on:
Don't reverse the North-South Roles in the revised timeline. If you do it just to give the anti-Reds more population to work with, it'll take the TL firmly into wank territory which I personally think it has avoided so far (others will contest this). Also, the South was the first place that the French conquered and made into their colony of Cochin-Chine, meaning their influence would be much stronger there, and the Viet Minh have less of a hold on at least the urban population. Additionally the only two major cities in the North would be Hanoi and Haiphong, and although the latter is a large port city, getting industrialisation and the like going might be more difficult. Another point is that since you've made South Vietnam a constitutional monarchy, keeping the old imperial capitol of Hue could be an important issue for them.
Also I guess it's kinda been ingrained into my mind that North is Communist and South isn't.
Another point, on pop culture. You mentioned that the Americans won't be in Vietnam in as full a force as they were IOTL. This might have quite on impact on especially popular music, since the Yanks pretty much introduced the Viets to rock and soul, resulting in awesomeness like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQRHiL0RN0E
I'm also interested in the lasting influence of the French, since even here in the North cafés are all over and a baguette is just as common a breakfast food as pho.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
First of all thanks for reading my TL and subscribing.
As I have mentioned before I am in two minds as to how I will re boot my TL. My original thought was to have the VNQDD inherit all of Vietnam post WW II. However a more enjoyable scenario would consist of the VNQDD and the Indochinese Communist Party forming a United Front against the Japanese and the French. This would create fairly interesting butterflies post war... and provide the opportunity for a divided Vietnam.
This would also allow a scenario where Operation Castor being avoided would result in a negotiated settlement and a stronger South... let's say by the addition of one or two provinces. So these are my options at the moment.
Happy to take criticisms or other ideas.
As I have mentioned before I am in two minds as to how I will re boot my TL. My original thought was to have the VNQDD inherit all of Vietnam post WW II. However a more enjoyable scenario would consist of the VNQDD and the Indochinese Communist Party forming a United Front against the Japanese and the French. This would create fairly interesting butterflies post war... and provide the opportunity for a divided Vietnam.
This would also allow a scenario where Operation Castor being avoided would result in a negotiated settlement and a stronger South... let's say by the addition of one or two provinces. So these are my options at the moment.
Happy to take criticisms or other ideas.
I wish I knew enough about the area and time period to give you more feedback and comments.
Hmm, the VNQDD in power might mean stronger ties to the GMD on Taiwan. That could have some great butterflies with the modern South China Sea/Spratleys situation in mind.
You seem to have made the even the non-Communist very independent-minded, what with forcing the French out more forcefully and not getting the ridiculous amounts of American troops in country. Considering the Cold War is still on, who would the South Vietnamese be aligned with? Would they remain America-oriented, or would they be in the non-alligned movement?
La Rouge Beret
Donor
South Vietnam will remain aligned with the West, but paradoxically they will have an independent foreign policy similar to France vis NATO.
Post WW II from all of the accounts that I have read, the French government realised that Vietnam was essentially lost. The first indochinese war is one of the easiest to prevent. In my version the French are more accomodating and this allows a stronger non communist alternative to develop.
However this also requires a good deal more research to flesh out the characters and their respective strategies.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
ITTL either Vietnam will not have a protracted war with each other.
There will be several proxy wars as I have alluded to in Laos and also Cambodia. One of those conflicts will see cross border raids from both sides, however cooler heads will prevail.
So Division size battles with accompanying arms and lots of tank for the Macauley fans out there. Jet fighters and I am not sure about how I can work in submarine combat as well for my dolphin loving friends.
But as far as relationships between the two Vietnams are concerned somewhere between South Korea / North Korea and West / East Germany.
There will be several proxy wars as I have alluded to in Laos and also Cambodia. One of those conflicts will see cross border raids from both sides, however cooler heads will prevail.
So Division size battles with accompanying arms and lots of tank for the Macauley fans out there. Jet fighters and I am not sure about how I can work in submarine combat as well for my dolphin loving friends.
But as far as relationships between the two Vietnams are concerned somewhere between South Korea / North Korea and West / East Germany.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Fire in the Lake
‘The conflict in Laos and the impact on the Kingdom of Vietnam.’ By Jonathon Wan
If you visit Laos today you will not see any physical reminder from the conflict half a century ago. The jungle has reclaimed the metal carcasses and the fallen in death lie in a perpetual embrace with their former foe. An avid eye may glimpse a shell fragment, but the larger pieces have long ago been placed into museums or Japanese steel mills. Unlike Europe there are no military cemeteries, only a single monument dedicated to all combatants in Vientiane.
The monument consists of a stone arch over the main road leading to parliament house. Flags representing each combatant are placed on either side of the road, each side has a single Laotian flag representing the fratricidal nature of the war to the Laotian people. Beneath the arch are numerous stone bas reliefs that illustrate a different chapter in the war from the beginning to the signing of the peace treaty at Pakse.
It has been accepted by historians that the defeat of the Pathet Lao and the Chinese Volunteers in Laos prevented Asia being subsumed as a whole by the Red hordes. However it must be asked, ‘Whether Communism was suitable to the people of South Vietnam?’
The South Vietnamese system of farming on individual plots combined with an entrepreneurial culture represents a quantum paradigm shift from the collectivist farming methods of the North that made Communism so appealing. It is unlikely that these stalwart anti-communists by culture and creed would have embraced communism as readily as their Northern relatives, if at all.
Several academics have asserted that the government of Dr Phan manipulated the conflict in Laos to unite the country. There may be an element of truth to this assertion, but that would display a callousness that has not been ascribed to Dr Phan by Bernard Fall or by any other biographer. After all this same man introduced land reform, improved local governance, facilitated one of the highest literacy rates in the developed world and created a nation.
Critics raise the incarceration of political prisoners by the Bureau for the Collection of Information under the Internal Subversion Act or the forcible collection of land from Europeans through the Vietnamese Citizenship Act. However were these actions of a man seeking to gather power at his feet, or similar to our own President Lincoln in bending the constitution to save the country?
Regardless of his many vices and virtues Dr Phan created a country that has successfully negotiated the transition from a developing to a developed economy while maintaining a stable political structure. The continuous economic growth has provided countless opportunities for their citizens for a life beyond the paddy field and villages of their ancestors. Dr Phan joins the pantheon of international figures including President Washington or Ataturk that are referred to as the father of their respective nations. In summation the Kingdom of Vietnam or colloquially South Vietnam represents one of the success stories of the twentieth century.
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Mr Wan,
The success of the South Vietnamese in developing their economic and civil institutions is laudable. However your piece fails to adequately explain how Dr Phan was able to achieve these remarkable goals. Accordingly, you are to resubmit with further information on how this ‘father of a nation’ created a stable, prosperous state. I will expect this to be commenced for the Turtledoves next year.
Yours sincerely,
AH
Professor Andrew Hetherington
‘The conflict in Laos and the impact on the Kingdom of Vietnam.’ By Jonathon Wan
If you visit Laos today you will not see any physical reminder from the conflict half a century ago. The jungle has reclaimed the metal carcasses and the fallen in death lie in a perpetual embrace with their former foe. An avid eye may glimpse a shell fragment, but the larger pieces have long ago been placed into museums or Japanese steel mills. Unlike Europe there are no military cemeteries, only a single monument dedicated to all combatants in Vientiane.
The monument consists of a stone arch over the main road leading to parliament house. Flags representing each combatant are placed on either side of the road, each side has a single Laotian flag representing the fratricidal nature of the war to the Laotian people. Beneath the arch are numerous stone bas reliefs that illustrate a different chapter in the war from the beginning to the signing of the peace treaty at Pakse.
It has been accepted by historians that the defeat of the Pathet Lao and the Chinese Volunteers in Laos prevented Asia being subsumed as a whole by the Red hordes. However it must be asked, ‘Whether Communism was suitable to the people of South Vietnam?’
The South Vietnamese system of farming on individual plots combined with an entrepreneurial culture represents a quantum paradigm shift from the collectivist farming methods of the North that made Communism so appealing. It is unlikely that these stalwart anti-communists by culture and creed would have embraced communism as readily as their Northern relatives, if at all.
Several academics have asserted that the government of Dr Phan manipulated the conflict in Laos to unite the country. There may be an element of truth to this assertion, but that would display a callousness that has not been ascribed to Dr Phan by Bernard Fall or by any other biographer. After all this same man introduced land reform, improved local governance, facilitated one of the highest literacy rates in the developed world and created a nation.
Critics raise the incarceration of political prisoners by the Bureau for the Collection of Information under the Internal Subversion Act or the forcible collection of land from Europeans through the Vietnamese Citizenship Act. However were these actions of a man seeking to gather power at his feet, or similar to our own President Lincoln in bending the constitution to save the country?
Regardless of his many vices and virtues Dr Phan created a country that has successfully negotiated the transition from a developing to a developed economy while maintaining a stable political structure. The continuous economic growth has provided countless opportunities for their citizens for a life beyond the paddy field and villages of their ancestors. Dr Phan joins the pantheon of international figures including President Washington or Ataturk that are referred to as the father of their respective nations. In summation the Kingdom of Vietnam or colloquially South Vietnam represents one of the success stories of the twentieth century.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Wan,
The success of the South Vietnamese in developing their economic and civil institutions is laudable. However your piece fails to adequately explain how Dr Phan was able to achieve these remarkable goals. Accordingly, you are to resubmit with further information on how this ‘father of a nation’ created a stable, prosperous state. I will expect this to be commenced for the Turtledoves next year.
Yours sincerely,
AH
Professor Andrew Hetherington