A tale of Vietnam: Con rồng trở lại và ruồi phượng hoàng
- Thread starter La Rouge Beret
- Start date
I wanna see the VNQDD timeline but go with whichever you have more ideas for. We will be here to comment and appreciate.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
The Ugly Ducklings: Cambodia and Laos
" Don't let an angry man wash dishes, don't let a hungry man guard rice."-Cambodian proverb
The Kingdoms’ of Cambodia and Laos are often overlooked, ignored for the bright lights of Bangkok, or the economic bustle of Saigon. However their political and economic stability remains important for the prosperity of both countries. Cambodia and Laos offer the strategic depth that South Vietnam lacks. For Thailand they provide a physical space between a border with communist states and the low level communist insurrection in the countryside.
Cambodia unilaterally declared their autonomy from the French Empire in 1945. Although motivated by the remaining Japanese soldiers, it was recognised by the temporary English governor. Recognising that he did not possess the soldiers or the inclination to return Cambodia to the fold, and that Vietnam represented a more pressing difficulty Marshall LeClerc acquiesced to their independence.
The Kingdom of Cambodia has wily King Sisowath[1] on the throne and a capable Prime Minister in Prince Yuthevong. Although the trappings of a one party state seemed established with the Democratic Party, it remains relatively benign comparable to Liberal Democratic rule in Japan. Overall, Cambodia appeared to be the least affected state in the former French Indochina.
Caption: Although the routines of a monk may have remained unchanged for thousands of years in Laos, it remains to be seen how long the present state of affairs will continue.
Laos remains beholden to three factions. The Pathet Lao led by Prince Souphanouvong remain active and dangerous in the north western part of the country. Ostensibly part of the government of unity they have been covertly arming their supporters preparing for the ultimate day of reckoning. The pro western element led by former Prime Minister Suvannaphūmā retain a stronger base in Champasak, with support from Thailand, the United States and South Vietnam. The Neutralists arguably have a more intelligent policy in attempting to keep Laos independent from the demands of both superpowers, however they do not possess the support or the ability to convince the majority of the country.
Currently, Prime Minister Sasorith faces an intractable problem in reconciling the demands of the left hand with those of the right. Overall Laos appears to be on the verge of an open civil war that will due to the virtue of its position, draw in every surrounding country. The latest friction point between the two superpowers may be a small landlocked country in South East Asia.
[1] King Sisowath Paneprang from my TL Angkor Resurgent.
" Don't let an angry man wash dishes, don't let a hungry man guard rice."-Cambodian proverb
The Kingdoms’ of Cambodia and Laos are often overlooked, ignored for the bright lights of Bangkok, or the economic bustle of Saigon. However their political and economic stability remains important for the prosperity of both countries. Cambodia and Laos offer the strategic depth that South Vietnam lacks. For Thailand they provide a physical space between a border with communist states and the low level communist insurrection in the countryside.
Cambodia unilaterally declared their autonomy from the French Empire in 1945. Although motivated by the remaining Japanese soldiers, it was recognised by the temporary English governor. Recognising that he did not possess the soldiers or the inclination to return Cambodia to the fold, and that Vietnam represented a more pressing difficulty Marshall LeClerc acquiesced to their independence.
The Kingdom of Cambodia has wily King Sisowath[1] on the throne and a capable Prime Minister in Prince Yuthevong. Although the trappings of a one party state seemed established with the Democratic Party, it remains relatively benign comparable to Liberal Democratic rule in Japan. Overall, Cambodia appeared to be the least affected state in the former French Indochina.
Caption: Although the routines of a monk may have remained unchanged for thousands of years in Laos, it remains to be seen how long the present state of affairs will continue.
Laos remains beholden to three factions. The Pathet Lao led by Prince Souphanouvong remain active and dangerous in the north western part of the country. Ostensibly part of the government of unity they have been covertly arming their supporters preparing for the ultimate day of reckoning. The pro western element led by former Prime Minister Suvannaphūmā retain a stronger base in Champasak, with support from Thailand, the United States and South Vietnam. The Neutralists arguably have a more intelligent policy in attempting to keep Laos independent from the demands of both superpowers, however they do not possess the support or the ability to convince the majority of the country.
Currently, Prime Minister Sasorith faces an intractable problem in reconciling the demands of the left hand with those of the right. Overall Laos appears to be on the verge of an open civil war that will due to the virtue of its position, draw in every surrounding country. The latest friction point between the two superpowers may be a small landlocked country in South East Asia.
[1] King Sisowath Paneprang from my TL Angkor Resurgent.
La Rouge Beret, this is a truly fascinating TL! 
I can't wait to see what effects the good doctor has on the outcome of world history.
I can't wait to see what effects the good doctor has on the outcome of world history.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Thanks for the comments, I will have the next post up next week.
I am thinking of something a little bit different before I get into the large scale punch on in Laos.
Something along the lines of vietnamese impact on western society, as evidenced through the ao dai and V pop.
I am thinking of something a little bit different before I get into the large scale punch on in Laos.
Something along the lines of vietnamese impact on western society, as evidenced through the ao dai
and V pop.Absolutely. Just one request - a bit more background regarding how what happens in your TL differs from OTL, and why/the results.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
superkuf,
What you are reading at the moment is a first draft for this timeline. As already I have several ideas that I would like to refine. This would involve creating a stronger political system in place prior to independence from France. Combined with France having a more appropriate policy to Indochina, but this will require further research. Having a former emperor act as regent until Bao Long comes of age.
Other POD's that I am considering is inverting the situation so that I would have a communist south and a pro western North or a South Vietnam that is enlarged by the addition of several provinces placing it in a stronger position. So lots of points to consider anyway...
So my intention is to complete this TL and then in my second version to provide further information on each point.
However a brief update is that the Kingdom of Vietnam is conducting its own land reform and light industrialisation programs. The military after their failed coup's are now focused on internal pacification campaigns and securing the border. With time there will be increased depoliticisation of the military.
North Vietnam is focused on similar internal issues and watching with interest over the deteriorating situation in Laos. Their military is slowly building up their capabilities.
The PRC is considering the final campaign to reclaim Taiwan and how it can accomplish same with the dominance of the USN. It is also looking at its borders for opportunities to expand its influence with minimal cost.
Laos is ready to implode and in doing so will provide further opportunities for capricious powers to rend it apart.
In summation this is very much a work in progress as I attempt to develop my thoughts further. If you have some further specific questions I will attempt to answer them.
Cheers,
LRB
What you are reading at the moment is a first draft for this timeline. As already I have several ideas that I would like to refine. This would involve creating a stronger political system in place prior to independence from France. Combined with France having a more appropriate policy to Indochina, but this will require further research. Having a former emperor act as regent until Bao Long comes of age.
Other POD's that I am considering is inverting the situation so that I would have a communist south and a pro western North or a South Vietnam that is enlarged by the addition of several provinces placing it in a stronger position. So lots of points to consider anyway...
So my intention is to complete this TL and then in my second version to provide further information on each point.
However a brief update is that the Kingdom of Vietnam is conducting its own land reform and light industrialisation programs. The military after their failed coup's are now focused on internal pacification campaigns and securing the border. With time there will be increased depoliticisation of the military.
North Vietnam is focused on similar internal issues and watching with interest over the deteriorating situation in Laos. Their military is slowly building up their capabilities.
The PRC is considering the final campaign to reclaim Taiwan and how it can accomplish same with the dominance of the USN. It is also looking at its borders for opportunities to expand its influence with minimal cost.
Laos is ready to implode and in doing so will provide further opportunities for capricious powers to rend it apart.
In summation this is very much a work in progress as I attempt to develop my thoughts further. If you have some further specific questions I will attempt to answer them.
Cheers,
LRB
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Ao Dai - An sartorial reminder of Vietnam
A lasting impression for any visitor to the Kingdom of Vietnam is the beauty of the women dressed in their ao dais. Girls dressed in white pick their way through muddy streets going home from school or sail by in a graceful chatter on their bikes. Secretaries in delicate pastels greet you at an office door and older ladies in deep shades of purple, green or blue cut a striking pose eating dinner at a restaurant. The ao dai appears to flatter every figure. In true Vietnamese fashion it covers everything, but hides nothing.
Pronounced 'ao yai' in the south, but 'ao zai' in the north, the colour is indicative of the wearer's age and status. Young girls wear white, symbolising their purity. As they mature, but are still unmarried they move into soft pastel shades. Only married women wear gowns in strong, rich colours, usually over white or black pants. The ao dai has always been more prevalent in the south than the north, and after the division of Vietnam into two countries the ao dai has become almost exclusively associated with the Kingdom of Vietnam. As opposed to their dour, austere sisters in the North.
Above: A more traditional version of the Ao Dai.
Early versions of the ao dai date back to 1744 when Lord Vu Vuong of the Nguyen Dynasty decreed both men and women should wear an ensemble of trousers and a gown that buttoned down the front. However, it was not until 1930 that the ao dai as we know it became popular. Monsieur Le Mur or Cat Tuong to use his Vietnamese name, lengthened the top, fitted the bodice to the curves fo the body and moved the buttons from the front to an opening along the shoulder and side seam. The modern form that we know today originated in the 1950's from two tailors based in Saigon, Thiet Lap and Dung Tailors respectively.
Its popularity has continued to spread with time, appearing in America's Next Top Model and worn by the all girl pop group the Wonder Girls*. The clothing inspired French designers including such fashion luminaries such as Christian Lacroix, Claude Montana and Yves Saint Laurent.
Above: One of the more 'modern' interpretations of the traditional garment.
Its popularity may be its undoing as the garment is now being mass produced to make it available and cheaper. The gown length appears to be gradually shortening and today the hemlines end just below the knee. But most visitors to Vietnam agree that it is hard to think of a more elegant, demure and yet attractive outfit, that suits Vietnamese women of all ages, than the ao dai.
*Vietnamese version in this TL.
A lasting impression for any visitor to the Kingdom of Vietnam is the beauty of the women dressed in their ao dais. Girls dressed in white pick their way through muddy streets going home from school or sail by in a graceful chatter on their bikes. Secretaries in delicate pastels greet you at an office door and older ladies in deep shades of purple, green or blue cut a striking pose eating dinner at a restaurant. The ao dai appears to flatter every figure. In true Vietnamese fashion it covers everything, but hides nothing.
Pronounced 'ao yai' in the south, but 'ao zai' in the north, the colour is indicative of the wearer's age and status. Young girls wear white, symbolising their purity. As they mature, but are still unmarried they move into soft pastel shades. Only married women wear gowns in strong, rich colours, usually over white or black pants. The ao dai has always been more prevalent in the south than the north, and after the division of Vietnam into two countries the ao dai has become almost exclusively associated with the Kingdom of Vietnam. As opposed to their dour, austere sisters in the North.
Above: A more traditional version of the Ao Dai.
Early versions of the ao dai date back to 1744 when Lord Vu Vuong of the Nguyen Dynasty decreed both men and women should wear an ensemble of trousers and a gown that buttoned down the front. However, it was not until 1930 that the ao dai as we know it became popular. Monsieur Le Mur or Cat Tuong to use his Vietnamese name, lengthened the top, fitted the bodice to the curves fo the body and moved the buttons from the front to an opening along the shoulder and side seam. The modern form that we know today originated in the 1950's from two tailors based in Saigon, Thiet Lap and Dung Tailors respectively.
Its popularity has continued to spread with time, appearing in America's Next Top Model and worn by the all girl pop group the Wonder Girls*. The clothing inspired French designers including such fashion luminaries such as Christian Lacroix, Claude Montana and Yves Saint Laurent.
Above: One of the more 'modern' interpretations of the traditional garment.
Its popularity may be its undoing as the garment is now being mass produced to make it available and cheaper. The gown length appears to be gradually shortening and today the hemlines end just below the knee. But most visitors to Vietnam agree that it is hard to think of a more elegant, demure and yet attractive outfit, that suits Vietnamese women of all ages, than the ao dai.
*Vietnamese version in this TL.
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La Rouge Beret
Donor
Hmmm so up to my readers... thinking about another smaller piece about sports and the adoption of soccer and the popular niche sport of Rugby (it is my TL after all), or I can put up a post about the start of the civil war in Laos.
It will probably be later on in the week or next week before I can get to it however.
It will probably be later on in the week or next week before I can get to it however.
Please keep this going
I can see a alternate scenario of JFK visiting South Vietnam in Nov 63 (Since he's on that friends of Vietnam thing) instead of Dallas.
Oh and wasn't baseball pretty popular in South Vietnam?
I can see a alternate scenario of JFK visiting South Vietnam in Nov 63 (Since he's on that friends of Vietnam thing) instead of Dallas.
Oh and wasn't baseball pretty popular in South Vietnam?
It shouldn't be hard to introduce rugby into Vietnam. It is the second sport in France, though in much of the southwest you could call it the first sport. Just as baseball came south with Union soldiers during the US Civil War, why wouldn't French soldiers bring both football and rugby to Indochine?
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Of course there is a similar indigenous game called vat cu, so I might use that as the basis. My thoughts are that soccer will still be the # 1 sport, but Rugby will be the second sport depending upon the province. I am considering something along the lines of a Hong Kong sevens event, which would be enjoyable... or even a Mekong cup tournament between Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam.
However back to the main thrust of the TL, work has been inordinately busy hence I have been lurking but not posting. Probably have an update about the situation in Laos beginning to explode in a week with an attempted decapitation coup which is only partially effective. Of course this will be completely independent, but will start to draw in other regional powers immediately.
However back to the main thrust of the TL, work has been inordinately busy hence I have been lurking but not posting. Probably have an update about the situation in Laos beginning to explode in a week with an attempted decapitation coup which is only partially effective. Of course this will be completely independent, but will start to draw in other regional powers immediately.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
It begins
U.N. Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjold. "I permit myself," wired Hammarskjold, "to express the hope that the line of independent neutrality in Laos will be firmly maintained."
The origins of the Laotian civil war cannot be attributed to either the Royalists or the Communists. Nor can this event be attributed to the larger regional powers such as Thailand, South Vietnam, North Vietnam or the People’s Republic of China. The blame can confidently rest at the feet of the small Neutralist faction with Laos.
Although it cannot be certain if the Prime Minister Souvanna Phouma, the leader of the Nationalist Party, condoned their actions, from newly released historical records we can ascertain that he was aware of plotters intent. In order to capitalise on the existing mistrust between the Communists and the Royalists, the Neutralists planned to show both parties forged documents indicating that the other party intended to execute a first strike against the other. It was hoped that in the heated environment that the Neutralists would be able to discredit both parties and to emerge as the sole political force in Laos. Surprisingly no one questioned or indeed asked how they intended to control the human desire for retribution once it was started. However, as in the best laid plans of mice and men their plan went awry.
Once the Pathet Lao were informed of the manufactured plot, they began their own plans for an initial decapitation strike as the first component of resuming their war against the Royalists. The Royalists were confused by the Neutralist deception. Accordingly on August 6 a meeting of senior military officers and intelligence analysts was convened to discuss the alleged documents at the Ministry of Defence.
Provided advance warning of the meeting by their own agents, the Pathet Lao launched their decapitation plan. Seven chosen soldiers posed as cleaners successfully passing the lax security surrounding the Ministry. Once inside they managed to assassinate the majority of the senior officers of the Royal Lao Army and several intelligence analysts. There was a notable exception Colonel Vang Pao, an ethnic Hmong, had enjoyed the charms of a delightful hostess from the night before and was late for the meeting. He was to prove as lucky on the battlefield as he had been in his other more amorous pursuits.
Above: General Vang Pao in ceremonial dress.
The semi slumbering guards reacted surprisingly effectively and killed four of the seven soldiers. The remaining three soldiers panicked as they attempted to escape, and sought refuge within the confines of the North Vietnamese embassy. A junior North Vietnamese aide being unable to contact the ambassador allowed the three men diplomatic shelter, while a decision could be reached. Although it took some time, the government discovered their location and imposed a police barricade around the embassy, while launching several diplomatic protests. If these men had been surrendered it is probably that the entire war could have been avoided, unfortunately this did not occur.
Above: A stylised picture of senior Pathet Lao officers planning a battalion attack.
On the night of August 8, the three men were smuggled out of the embassy and flown out of Laos on a diplomatic flight to China. The Laotian government was suitably aggrieved and expelled the ambassador from North Vietnam. In retaliation North Vietnam increased their logistical and training support to the Pathet Lao. The communist Chinese eager to create their own puppet state began to provide further support to the Pathet Lao to retain their influence over the Pathet Lao.
Inexorably in time the three adjacent non communist powers of Thailand, Cambodia and South Vietnam would all be drawn in. The quagmire that was to become the Laotian Civil War had begun.
U.N. Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjold. "I permit myself," wired Hammarskjold, "to express the hope that the line of independent neutrality in Laos will be firmly maintained."
The origins of the Laotian civil war cannot be attributed to either the Royalists or the Communists. Nor can this event be attributed to the larger regional powers such as Thailand, South Vietnam, North Vietnam or the People’s Republic of China. The blame can confidently rest at the feet of the small Neutralist faction with Laos.
Although it cannot be certain if the Prime Minister Souvanna Phouma, the leader of the Nationalist Party, condoned their actions, from newly released historical records we can ascertain that he was aware of plotters intent. In order to capitalise on the existing mistrust between the Communists and the Royalists, the Neutralists planned to show both parties forged documents indicating that the other party intended to execute a first strike against the other. It was hoped that in the heated environment that the Neutralists would be able to discredit both parties and to emerge as the sole political force in Laos. Surprisingly no one questioned or indeed asked how they intended to control the human desire for retribution once it was started. However, as in the best laid plans of mice and men their plan went awry.
Once the Pathet Lao were informed of the manufactured plot, they began their own plans for an initial decapitation strike as the first component of resuming their war against the Royalists. The Royalists were confused by the Neutralist deception. Accordingly on August 6 a meeting of senior military officers and intelligence analysts was convened to discuss the alleged documents at the Ministry of Defence.
Provided advance warning of the meeting by their own agents, the Pathet Lao launched their decapitation plan. Seven chosen soldiers posed as cleaners successfully passing the lax security surrounding the Ministry. Once inside they managed to assassinate the majority of the senior officers of the Royal Lao Army and several intelligence analysts. There was a notable exception Colonel Vang Pao, an ethnic Hmong, had enjoyed the charms of a delightful hostess from the night before and was late for the meeting. He was to prove as lucky on the battlefield as he had been in his other more amorous pursuits.
Above: General Vang Pao in ceremonial dress.
The semi slumbering guards reacted surprisingly effectively and killed four of the seven soldiers. The remaining three soldiers panicked as they attempted to escape, and sought refuge within the confines of the North Vietnamese embassy. A junior North Vietnamese aide being unable to contact the ambassador allowed the three men diplomatic shelter, while a decision could be reached. Although it took some time, the government discovered their location and imposed a police barricade around the embassy, while launching several diplomatic protests. If these men had been surrendered it is probably that the entire war could have been avoided, unfortunately this did not occur.
Above: A stylised picture of senior Pathet Lao officers planning a battalion attack.
On the night of August 8, the three men were smuggled out of the embassy and flown out of Laos on a diplomatic flight to China. The Laotian government was suitably aggrieved and expelled the ambassador from North Vietnam. In retaliation North Vietnam increased their logistical and training support to the Pathet Lao. The communist Chinese eager to create their own puppet state began to provide further support to the Pathet Lao to retain their influence over the Pathet Lao.
Inexorably in time the three adjacent non communist powers of Thailand, Cambodia and South Vietnam would all be drawn in. The quagmire that was to become the Laotian Civil War had begun.