A tale of two LWs

Deleted member 1487

Would this gap in bombing also effect Allied air superiority during D-Day.
That depends on whether the 'gap' happens during the D-day landings. My gut feeling is probably not because of how close the landing and bombings were to Britain, as air superiority could be gained and held over France, which it could not be over Germany, the heart of air defenses ITTL and IOTL.

I thought the Wasserfall was ready to be mass produced by 1943 an it was only halted that long because it wasn't given any love earlier on. If we have the RLLA early on do we see flak towers earlier than 1940 and if not do we see more or less towers built when hitler asked for them built.
Nope. It may have been produceable in 1944-5, but it wasn't really operational and IMHO was probably less useful than building more FLAK and guidance systems for it.

I'd like to see some built prior to 1939 instead of some of the West Wall spending, as the need was certainly there to defend the Rhein industry with French airfields so close. Considering the number of ME109s (the majority of them) held in Germany to defend German production during the Polish campaign, it was obviously viewed as a main vulnerability.
I think we still see the Berlin towers build when Berlin is bombed and hopefully some built in Hamburg and other northern cities while there are further expansions in the Rhein/Ruhr cities.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
Can we have Hitler decide early on that they are going to sweep through Belgium and that west wall need not be upgraded or built due to the Superiority of the Aryan Wehrmacht.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
It depends on when the shut down happens. Any stoppage in 1943-4 is a major help to Germany. It increases production, raises morale, reduces losses of all kinds, and has butterfly effects like that on the Ta-154 (some disagree that it matters, I think it does), which won't lose its glue in Wuppertal and becomes the German Mosquito in 1944, which would be perfect, as that was when the low drag centimeteric AI radar (Berlin) were coming online.

A halt allows breathing room for the night fighters to be built up, more pilots to be trained, more FLAK to be built, and more bunkers and defenses to be completed.

If both the day and night bombing are halted, then even better, as German pilots will not be slaughtered during training and can build up their numbers and defenses even more, not to mention the production advantages gained and the aircraft not lost on the ground. Even a 6 month window gives the Germans much stronger defenses when the bombing starts again and large amounts of production not lost that can be used on the Eastern Front.
It also means the Allies are 6 months behind in target selection, meaning they won't progress through the lists as quickly and won't start hitting on the real pressure points like oil or transportation until later.

I'd say those 6 months add about 3-4 months on to the war and at a very minimum 150,000 allied (mostly Soviet) dead if not more. Fewer German civilians die and the Allied air forces take a beating when they renew their offensive, which will probably keep losses near historical levels or even raise them.


Could 1920's Germany afford such codes and changes?

Coming from an accounting background, I think they are cheaper than the additional military funding you are proposing. About in the year 2000, building a home or office building out of 4" thick concrete walls is only about 10% more expensive than building a wood frame house and will last many times longer and have much lower energy costs. Note in American often the land is the majority of the cost of a new home. And this was without the whole industry switching over, which would drive costs closer.
Planning for wider streets is basically free. I am not talking about tearing down existing building, just studies to find a good width as a fire break and then adding to building code. People seem big on bunkers, and often the difference in a basement that is vulnerable or a basement that is adequate is a few feet of extra dirt around the base of the building. Or take say Hitler Germania and other ego projects. I suspect if the ground work was laid on standard pre-1933, then the projects could dual use at low extra cost. Like where he wants to take the autobahn under Berlin can be better designed to be dual use in a war. Or German cities go more with underground subways with the accompanying underground stations that also have dual use. The Russians certainly did so in the cold war, and defending against atomic bombs is alot harder than designing something to take a 1000 KG bomb near miss.

Now from a TL perspective, it is hard to quantify, and lacks sexiness. And sexiness is a part of good TL. I could have probably helped Germany out more by writing a TL with a good Minister of Agriculture in the 15 years leading up to the war. A few more ammonia plants that also help with ammunition in the a war. A few prewar studies of how to grow food in a war and stockpiling of critical items if needed. Minor changes to drafting laws so farming is more protected. But it would be boring as can be.

Now to the bombing halt, I think we can quantify it would start in summer/fall of 43, since it seems like the USA had near halt in October 43. As soon as the USA gets enough bombers, it will test Germany. And with higher losses, this is when pause will happen. Now the Nazi problem is that after the pause, the USA will have long range escort ready. So if they don't stop the Spring USA Blitz, then D-Day can still happen on time. Seems like the USA killed more LW fighter in March 44 than all previous months combined. So in may ways, the USA attacks can be viewed as slow motion kamikaze attacks that draw the LW fighters out of Russia. Desperate but had to be done. And the USA only really wins the last 14 months or so of the airwar.
 
AdA said:
Any thoughts on the matter before I take any wrong turns?
I've a few. Can you outfit Me-163s or Na-349s for zero-length vertical launch with *JATO bottles, rather than make them launch under their own power? Can you fit the 163 to burn kerosene instead of the insane concoction it used OTL?:eek:

If you split Luftwaffe & *Air Defence Command (Flugzeugabwher Kommando?), you might be able to overcome one of the Luftwaffe's major problems: crew training. The instructors were burned up in the BoB... (This does appear to require overcoming the German belief the war would be short...:rolleyes:)

I wonder if this might not also mean separating Heer-support tacair from strategic, so turning over the likes of Ju-87s & Hs-129s to Heer, leaving hi-level bombers, Me-110s, & Ju-88s to Luftwaffe--which might also mean the Ju-88 doesn't get saddled with the insane DB requirement.:eek::confused::confused:
BlondieBC said:
night bomber campaign is shut down for 6 month pause
Never going to happen. Winston's government would fall.:eek: He has to keep up attacks on Germany, for domestic as well as international political reasons. They'd shift emphasis. They'd shift targets. They'd stay within escort range. They might even "damn the torpedoes" & accept the losses. They'd almost certainly try to find some technological response--& the Brits are by far better at that than the Germans.

Could the Brits introduce a radio-guided PGM? Certainly. An IR-guided one? Probably. SAR-guided? Probably. Could they then use these to bomb powerstations & shut off German electricity around the country, with trivial losses to aircraft & crews? Almost certainly. Given the option, would they? They'd have to be total idiots if they didn't try something like it...:rolleyes: (Some TLs do have them being idiots of that caliber, but IRL...:eek:)
bsmart said:
There is one obvious place for the AA defense islands. -- The shallow water around the Frisian Islands!!!:D
Stop being silly. That's the first place the Allies will land.:p
 
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