I have an idea for a timeline, but I need some…well a bit more than some… help with it.
It is a Dutch centred timeline, in which they manage to keep (or more accurately reconquer) the New Netherlands. Even though the Netherlands does better than OTL, I tried to avoid a Dutchwank (or however it is called), so no Dutch speaking USA, no Dutch South African Empire and not even a Dutch Australia.
I have some ideas how to continue, at least what happens with the Netherlands, the UK, France, Germany and the Americas, but I need some help with the rest of the world. I will post my ideas in a rough timeline and hope people will give some ideas for the rest of the world, ideas to fill in the gaps, idea for interesting details or point out some errors I made and how to correct the errors (hopefully in a way that would not or not much influence the rest of the timeline). As you will notice I tried not to get too many butterflies, certainly in the Earlier years. And to make it easier for me social and technological advances will be more or less the same.
In 1973 during the third Anglo-Dutch war managed to recapture New Amsterdam (which was lost to the English in the second Anglo-Dutch war in 1667), my POD is that the Dutch not only recapture New Amsterdam but manage to capture a more territory of the New Netherlands. In the treaty of Westminster the Dutch demand that the New Netherlands will be restored to them. The English parliament who was fed up with losing a war they didn’t want in the first place agree and part of the New Netherlands is returned (northern New Jersey, New York , a bit of west Connecticut).
The following years the New Netherlands will attract colonists from the Netherlands, Belgium and northern Germany, including lots of Jewish immigrants.
History continues and in 1689 the Dutch stadholder William III becomes King William III if England. His reign doesn’t differ much from his OTL reign. The largest difference is his decision to give the New Netherlands the same status as Drenthe (in short, it had its own parliament (staten) but not the right to vote in the Dutch national parliament (estates-general)). William III would be the Stadholder of the New Netherlands. At this point the definitive borders between the New Netherlands and the British colonies would be decided. The New Netherlands would exist basically as the state of New York (except the western part), long Island, Northern New Jersey, a small part of north east Pennsylvania and the western part of Connecticut.
Another difference is that during the North American part of the war of the Grand Alliance, Dutch troops from the New Netherlands fought side by side with British troops against the French. This did not drastically alter the course of the war and when peace was signed, the treaty of Rijswijk was the same as OTL treaty.
William and Mary still didn’t get any children (I believe that when two people don’t get any children, there is a reason for it and if they would get children it would end in an Anglo-Dutch timeline and not an Dutch New Netherlands timeline and anyway Flocculentio probably can write better Anglo-Dutch then I, so no children for William), so when William dies around 1700 Anne becomes the next monarch of England and Scotland (She will also die childless, because as I said there must be a reason if people don’t get any children)
In the Netherlands William III death also meant that there was no direct successor. Holland, Utrecht, Zeeland, Gelderland and Overijsel decided not to appoint a stadholder, even though William had wanted the stadholder of Friesland and Groningen (Johan Willem Friso) to become his successor. Drenthe and the New Netherlands did decide to appoint him as their stadholder.
During this time the war of Spanish Succession was fought and because I don’t think my POD would lead to major butterflies in Europe it ends basically the same as OTL. The main difference would be in America, but in the end I don’t think it would make that much a difference. The main thing that changes is that because the Dutch help fighting the English in North America, they get all of Spanish Gelre (instead of getting part of it like OTL), still hardly everything the hoped for (which was all of the Spanish Netherlands which Austria got).
OTL around this time the act of union happened, is this likely to happen at this time? Or is it an unlikely event to happen and easily butterflied away?
One thing that is butterflied away is the Death of Johan Willem Friso in 1911. OTL he died in an accident, now he doesn’t. Because of the prestige he got during the war of Spanish succession he was appointed in 1712 as stadholder of Overijsel and in 1914 as stadholder of Gelderland and Utrecht. Now only Holland and Zeeland had no stadholder. In 1716 the New Netherlands gets the status of province and is allowed to vote in the Estate-General (which means The Netherlands will be known as the Republic of Eight United Provinces). Johan Willem Friso dies in 1735. And his son Willem becomes stadholder Willem IV in all provinces except Zeeland and Holland.
Around 1714 Queen Anne dies and George of Hanover becomes King of England (or Great-Britain, not sure yet). I assume this will not get butterflied away.
Another war with France dawns. Another war in which England and the Netherlands ally against France occur, France is beaten back again out of the Austrian Netherlands. During this time, Holland and Zeeland afraid of the French offensive decide to appoint William IV as their stadholder. Soon the Stadholdership (is that a word?) is made hereditary. Some citizens didn’t like the idea of that and a democratic movement was created (not as in a democracy like we know it know, just people (mainly middleclass) who want to get more influence, heavily influenced by French writers), they rebelled against the regents (rich merchant who had all the influence). The stadholder supported the regents in this struggle, which the democrats didn’t like. In 1763 Willem IV dies and his son becomes the next stadholder Willem V.
In America and India the British (without the Dutch this time) and the French fought another war, leading to the final division of North America. The British get the territory East of the Mississippi, south of the Saint Lawrence river, Newfoundland, Ontario and the area west of the Hudsonbay, France would get Louisiana west of the Mississippi and Quebec. In India the situation is undecided.
This leads to the American revolution. I know, that could easily be butterflied away, but I like it if there would be an American revolution. Anyway, the Americans rebel against their British (or English, still not sure about that, even though I think that at this point there probably would have been some kind of act of union. I think it would be better for the Scots if they are equal to the English). Basically the Americans want representation, less tax, more freedom etc, the reasons why they rebelled in OTL. The Netherlands decides to remain neutral, an important reason is because they fear, the citizens in the New Netherlands will rebel too. There is a lot of sympathy in the New Netherlands for the American rebels, some even join them in the fight against the British. They themselves don’t rebel, they basically have already what the Americans demand from the British. Even without the Dutch help the rebels manage to become independent, not in the last part because of French help. Because the French still control Quebec, they can help the Americans more effectively. In the end the Americans manage to win their independence, even though Ontario still remains British.. At first they wish to form one state, but because the New Netherlands effectively divides that state in two, two countries are formed: In the north New England (including the Maritimes and Newfoundland) in the south the USA (I rather use another name, I don’t think they would use that name in this situation. If anyone has a good name, please tell me).
France helping the American rebels, the other recent wars in the last century and the lifestyle of the kings of France lead to a revolution in France (yes I know, still a French revolution even with an so early POD. Still I consider a French revolution extremely likely in these circumstances). The French decide to get rid of their king Louis XVII and of a lot of the French nobility. When they succeeded in this, the surrounding countries are afraid that the French ideas of freedom will spread to their countries try to restore the monarchy in France. To prevent that from happening the French quickly invade the surrounding countries and install puppet regimes. In Northern Italy they create the Estruskan republic, in Switzerland the Helvetian Republic, in the Rhineland area the Alemannian republic, in the Austrian Netherlands the Belgian Republic, they even manage to invade the Dutch republic and create the Batavian Republic there. The Dutch Stadholder and a lot of merchants flee the Netherlands, afraid of what happened to the nobility in France. They decide to flee to the New Netherlands and continue the fight and to rule the Dutch colonies (Guyana, South Africa, Ceylon, the Dutch east Indies and some trading posts in West Africa and India) from there. Together with the English and the Quebeci (who didn’t recognise the revolution) they fight the French republic. The British manage to conquer Louisiana, the French Areas in India. The Dutch manage to capture French Guyana.
In Europe the situation in the French puppet countries becomes worse. At first the people were happy with the French who promised them freedom and democracy. A lot of reforms were instituted. But after a while, partly because the continuing war with England (and the Netherlands in exile, Russia and Prussia) those puppets started to become more and more occupied by the French. Freedom of speech disappeared, politicians who disagreed with the French lost their position and sometimes disappeared, the people living in the puppet states were forced to fight for France. The general population started to turn away more and more from the French. Soon all laws must be written in French, all the newspapers must be written partly in French, French soldiers were everywhere. In the Batavian republic people started to smuggle with the English and an espionage network between the people in the Batavian republic and the emissary of the Netherlands in London was formed. Soon the Belgian republic started to participated too. The people in the southern part of the Belgian republic started to speak more and more the Walloon dialect to differentiate them from the French. After a couple of years it became more clear the French were losing the war, a couple of high officials from the Batavian and the Belgian republic, who were starting more and more cooperating among themselves, met and began discussing the situation what would happen after the war. They decided to make an offer to the Dutch republic, the three of them would merge into a republic, some of the democratic reforms at the beginning of the French occupation would be kept. The Batavian and Belgian republic would help to defeat the French. Two emissaries were sent in secret to England, from there they travelled to New Amsterdam were they made a deal with stadholder Willem VI (Willem V had passed away). After the deal Dutch and British forces landed in the Batavian Republic, where they soon got support from the local population and militaries. They advanced south to the Belgian republic, whose forces also joined them. In the meantime Prussia had managed to defeat the German states which supported the French (like Saxony and Nassau), Bavaria who used to support the French switched sides and conquered Baden and Wurttenberg. Together with Prussia, Bavaria launched an attack at the Alemannian republic. Then Prussian, Bavarian, Dutch and British troops entered France where they managed to defeat the revolutionaries.
In the peace treaty in Berlin It was decided that Baden and Wurtenberg would be part of Bavaria, Prussia gained the area that used to be the Alemannian republic and part of Saxony, India and the northern part of Louisiana would go to England, French Guyana, Saint Martin and Saint Barthelemy would go to the newly formed United Republic of The Netherlands (consisting of the New Netherlands, the Batavian republic and the Belgian republic. In France a nephew of Louis XVII would become king as Louis XVIII, Quebec and the southern part of Louisiana, the area around New Orleans would be restored to France as would the other colonies.
As you notice I haven’t used any dates recently, that is because I am not sure when it all happens. I know it is somewhere at the beginning of the 19th century.
Not long after the treaty of Berlin in 1811 another treaty was made between the Dutch republic and England was made, an exchange of colonies, all Dutch colonies in India would be exchanged with all English colonies in east Indies. (this means that India would be English and OTL Indonesia and Malaysia would be Dutch). Britain and the Netherlands tried to get Portugal involved in this deal to get Goa and East Timor, however Portugal didn’t wish to cooperate)
In the 19th century I wish the following tings to happen, but I am not sure how or when:
England, who in this timeline didn’t get the South African Colony from the Netherlands, founds a colony at the Algoa Bay (near OTL Port Elizabeth) to supply ships going to India and Australia.
England Starts the colonization of Australia, after it became clear that the Netherlands had no interest in the barren land.
The British colony in North America starts to spread out, reaching the atlantic coast. The British buy The Alaskan colony from Russia.
France starts the colonization of Northern and Western Africa
The USA (or whatever I decide to call them) starts creating colonies in Western Africa (I am thinking of the Netherlands selling them their trading outposts in West Africa)
After a couple of years enough countries are interested in a colony in Africa, so in a scramble of Africa, the continent is divided between: The Netherlands, England/GB/UK, the USA, France, Portugal and Prussia (I am not sure how exactly, but I don’t think the Dutch area would increase a lot outside cape colony)
Spanish colonies in America decide to become independent, so in America the following countries appear: Mexico, Cuba (including Florida) and Argentina. Around this time Louisiana also becomes independent.
Mexico gets into war with Britain who beats them and gains western coastal areas (Including California and baja California). The desert areas (which include OTL Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico etc) the Mexicans are allowed to keep. (Would in this scenario a Texas appear? Probably not , right?)
The USA get into conflict with Cuba and annexes the northern part of Florida
Rebellions in Germany who demand more rights from their rulers, which allows Prussia to take over the smaller countries in northern Germany.
The rebellions in Germany will spread to Hanover, after which Hanover splits from the personal union with Great Britain. A couple of years after it happens Prussia annexes Hanover.
Ok what do you think? As you see it clearly isn’t finished but so far any ideas to improve it?
It is a Dutch centred timeline, in which they manage to keep (or more accurately reconquer) the New Netherlands. Even though the Netherlands does better than OTL, I tried to avoid a Dutchwank (or however it is called), so no Dutch speaking USA, no Dutch South African Empire and not even a Dutch Australia.
I have some ideas how to continue, at least what happens with the Netherlands, the UK, France, Germany and the Americas, but I need some help with the rest of the world. I will post my ideas in a rough timeline and hope people will give some ideas for the rest of the world, ideas to fill in the gaps, idea for interesting details or point out some errors I made and how to correct the errors (hopefully in a way that would not or not much influence the rest of the timeline). As you will notice I tried not to get too many butterflies, certainly in the Earlier years. And to make it easier for me social and technological advances will be more or less the same.
In 1973 during the third Anglo-Dutch war managed to recapture New Amsterdam (which was lost to the English in the second Anglo-Dutch war in 1667), my POD is that the Dutch not only recapture New Amsterdam but manage to capture a more territory of the New Netherlands. In the treaty of Westminster the Dutch demand that the New Netherlands will be restored to them. The English parliament who was fed up with losing a war they didn’t want in the first place agree and part of the New Netherlands is returned (northern New Jersey, New York , a bit of west Connecticut).
The following years the New Netherlands will attract colonists from the Netherlands, Belgium and northern Germany, including lots of Jewish immigrants.
History continues and in 1689 the Dutch stadholder William III becomes King William III if England. His reign doesn’t differ much from his OTL reign. The largest difference is his decision to give the New Netherlands the same status as Drenthe (in short, it had its own parliament (staten) but not the right to vote in the Dutch national parliament (estates-general)). William III would be the Stadholder of the New Netherlands. At this point the definitive borders between the New Netherlands and the British colonies would be decided. The New Netherlands would exist basically as the state of New York (except the western part), long Island, Northern New Jersey, a small part of north east Pennsylvania and the western part of Connecticut.
Another difference is that during the North American part of the war of the Grand Alliance, Dutch troops from the New Netherlands fought side by side with British troops against the French. This did not drastically alter the course of the war and when peace was signed, the treaty of Rijswijk was the same as OTL treaty.
William and Mary still didn’t get any children (I believe that when two people don’t get any children, there is a reason for it and if they would get children it would end in an Anglo-Dutch timeline and not an Dutch New Netherlands timeline and anyway Flocculentio probably can write better Anglo-Dutch then I, so no children for William), so when William dies around 1700 Anne becomes the next monarch of England and Scotland (She will also die childless, because as I said there must be a reason if people don’t get any children)
In the Netherlands William III death also meant that there was no direct successor. Holland, Utrecht, Zeeland, Gelderland and Overijsel decided not to appoint a stadholder, even though William had wanted the stadholder of Friesland and Groningen (Johan Willem Friso) to become his successor. Drenthe and the New Netherlands did decide to appoint him as their stadholder.
During this time the war of Spanish Succession was fought and because I don’t think my POD would lead to major butterflies in Europe it ends basically the same as OTL. The main difference would be in America, but in the end I don’t think it would make that much a difference. The main thing that changes is that because the Dutch help fighting the English in North America, they get all of Spanish Gelre (instead of getting part of it like OTL), still hardly everything the hoped for (which was all of the Spanish Netherlands which Austria got).
OTL around this time the act of union happened, is this likely to happen at this time? Or is it an unlikely event to happen and easily butterflied away?
One thing that is butterflied away is the Death of Johan Willem Friso in 1911. OTL he died in an accident, now he doesn’t. Because of the prestige he got during the war of Spanish succession he was appointed in 1712 as stadholder of Overijsel and in 1914 as stadholder of Gelderland and Utrecht. Now only Holland and Zeeland had no stadholder. In 1716 the New Netherlands gets the status of province and is allowed to vote in the Estate-General (which means The Netherlands will be known as the Republic of Eight United Provinces). Johan Willem Friso dies in 1735. And his son Willem becomes stadholder Willem IV in all provinces except Zeeland and Holland.
Around 1714 Queen Anne dies and George of Hanover becomes King of England (or Great-Britain, not sure yet). I assume this will not get butterflied away.
Another war with France dawns. Another war in which England and the Netherlands ally against France occur, France is beaten back again out of the Austrian Netherlands. During this time, Holland and Zeeland afraid of the French offensive decide to appoint William IV as their stadholder. Soon the Stadholdership (is that a word?) is made hereditary. Some citizens didn’t like the idea of that and a democratic movement was created (not as in a democracy like we know it know, just people (mainly middleclass) who want to get more influence, heavily influenced by French writers), they rebelled against the regents (rich merchant who had all the influence). The stadholder supported the regents in this struggle, which the democrats didn’t like. In 1763 Willem IV dies and his son becomes the next stadholder Willem V.
In America and India the British (without the Dutch this time) and the French fought another war, leading to the final division of North America. The British get the territory East of the Mississippi, south of the Saint Lawrence river, Newfoundland, Ontario and the area west of the Hudsonbay, France would get Louisiana west of the Mississippi and Quebec. In India the situation is undecided.
This leads to the American revolution. I know, that could easily be butterflied away, but I like it if there would be an American revolution. Anyway, the Americans rebel against their British (or English, still not sure about that, even though I think that at this point there probably would have been some kind of act of union. I think it would be better for the Scots if they are equal to the English). Basically the Americans want representation, less tax, more freedom etc, the reasons why they rebelled in OTL. The Netherlands decides to remain neutral, an important reason is because they fear, the citizens in the New Netherlands will rebel too. There is a lot of sympathy in the New Netherlands for the American rebels, some even join them in the fight against the British. They themselves don’t rebel, they basically have already what the Americans demand from the British. Even without the Dutch help the rebels manage to become independent, not in the last part because of French help. Because the French still control Quebec, they can help the Americans more effectively. In the end the Americans manage to win their independence, even though Ontario still remains British.. At first they wish to form one state, but because the New Netherlands effectively divides that state in two, two countries are formed: In the north New England (including the Maritimes and Newfoundland) in the south the USA (I rather use another name, I don’t think they would use that name in this situation. If anyone has a good name, please tell me).
France helping the American rebels, the other recent wars in the last century and the lifestyle of the kings of France lead to a revolution in France (yes I know, still a French revolution even with an so early POD. Still I consider a French revolution extremely likely in these circumstances). The French decide to get rid of their king Louis XVII and of a lot of the French nobility. When they succeeded in this, the surrounding countries are afraid that the French ideas of freedom will spread to their countries try to restore the monarchy in France. To prevent that from happening the French quickly invade the surrounding countries and install puppet regimes. In Northern Italy they create the Estruskan republic, in Switzerland the Helvetian Republic, in the Rhineland area the Alemannian republic, in the Austrian Netherlands the Belgian Republic, they even manage to invade the Dutch republic and create the Batavian Republic there. The Dutch Stadholder and a lot of merchants flee the Netherlands, afraid of what happened to the nobility in France. They decide to flee to the New Netherlands and continue the fight and to rule the Dutch colonies (Guyana, South Africa, Ceylon, the Dutch east Indies and some trading posts in West Africa and India) from there. Together with the English and the Quebeci (who didn’t recognise the revolution) they fight the French republic. The British manage to conquer Louisiana, the French Areas in India. The Dutch manage to capture French Guyana.
In Europe the situation in the French puppet countries becomes worse. At first the people were happy with the French who promised them freedom and democracy. A lot of reforms were instituted. But after a while, partly because the continuing war with England (and the Netherlands in exile, Russia and Prussia) those puppets started to become more and more occupied by the French. Freedom of speech disappeared, politicians who disagreed with the French lost their position and sometimes disappeared, the people living in the puppet states were forced to fight for France. The general population started to turn away more and more from the French. Soon all laws must be written in French, all the newspapers must be written partly in French, French soldiers were everywhere. In the Batavian republic people started to smuggle with the English and an espionage network between the people in the Batavian republic and the emissary of the Netherlands in London was formed. Soon the Belgian republic started to participated too. The people in the southern part of the Belgian republic started to speak more and more the Walloon dialect to differentiate them from the French. After a couple of years it became more clear the French were losing the war, a couple of high officials from the Batavian and the Belgian republic, who were starting more and more cooperating among themselves, met and began discussing the situation what would happen after the war. They decided to make an offer to the Dutch republic, the three of them would merge into a republic, some of the democratic reforms at the beginning of the French occupation would be kept. The Batavian and Belgian republic would help to defeat the French. Two emissaries were sent in secret to England, from there they travelled to New Amsterdam were they made a deal with stadholder Willem VI (Willem V had passed away). After the deal Dutch and British forces landed in the Batavian Republic, where they soon got support from the local population and militaries. They advanced south to the Belgian republic, whose forces also joined them. In the meantime Prussia had managed to defeat the German states which supported the French (like Saxony and Nassau), Bavaria who used to support the French switched sides and conquered Baden and Wurttenberg. Together with Prussia, Bavaria launched an attack at the Alemannian republic. Then Prussian, Bavarian, Dutch and British troops entered France where they managed to defeat the revolutionaries.
In the peace treaty in Berlin It was decided that Baden and Wurtenberg would be part of Bavaria, Prussia gained the area that used to be the Alemannian republic and part of Saxony, India and the northern part of Louisiana would go to England, French Guyana, Saint Martin and Saint Barthelemy would go to the newly formed United Republic of The Netherlands (consisting of the New Netherlands, the Batavian republic and the Belgian republic. In France a nephew of Louis XVII would become king as Louis XVIII, Quebec and the southern part of Louisiana, the area around New Orleans would be restored to France as would the other colonies.
As you notice I haven’t used any dates recently, that is because I am not sure when it all happens. I know it is somewhere at the beginning of the 19th century.
Not long after the treaty of Berlin in 1811 another treaty was made between the Dutch republic and England was made, an exchange of colonies, all Dutch colonies in India would be exchanged with all English colonies in east Indies. (this means that India would be English and OTL Indonesia and Malaysia would be Dutch). Britain and the Netherlands tried to get Portugal involved in this deal to get Goa and East Timor, however Portugal didn’t wish to cooperate)
In the 19th century I wish the following tings to happen, but I am not sure how or when:
England, who in this timeline didn’t get the South African Colony from the Netherlands, founds a colony at the Algoa Bay (near OTL Port Elizabeth) to supply ships going to India and Australia.
England Starts the colonization of Australia, after it became clear that the Netherlands had no interest in the barren land.
The British colony in North America starts to spread out, reaching the atlantic coast. The British buy The Alaskan colony from Russia.
France starts the colonization of Northern and Western Africa
The USA (or whatever I decide to call them) starts creating colonies in Western Africa (I am thinking of the Netherlands selling them their trading outposts in West Africa)
After a couple of years enough countries are interested in a colony in Africa, so in a scramble of Africa, the continent is divided between: The Netherlands, England/GB/UK, the USA, France, Portugal and Prussia (I am not sure how exactly, but I don’t think the Dutch area would increase a lot outside cape colony)
Spanish colonies in America decide to become independent, so in America the following countries appear: Mexico, Cuba (including Florida) and Argentina. Around this time Louisiana also becomes independent.
Mexico gets into war with Britain who beats them and gains western coastal areas (Including California and baja California). The desert areas (which include OTL Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico etc) the Mexicans are allowed to keep. (Would in this scenario a Texas appear? Probably not , right?)
The USA get into conflict with Cuba and annexes the northern part of Florida
Rebellions in Germany who demand more rights from their rulers, which allows Prussia to take over the smaller countries in northern Germany.
The rebellions in Germany will spread to Hanover, after which Hanover splits from the personal union with Great Britain. A couple of years after it happens Prussia annexes Hanover.
Ok what do you think? As you see it clearly isn’t finished but so far any ideas to improve it?
