A Surviving Holy Roman Empire

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The political systems being wholly different and stuff is part of why this really isn't a similar situation.

Realpolitick and strategy do not really change.

Not sure if I follow this logic. They replace the Capets with the Plantagents, and this makes things -easier-?

'Partition' is the key word here. E.g. we may perhaps assume that the Empire claims the equivalent of the Duchy of Burgundy under the Charles the Bold plus Champagne, as the price for its part in putting down the Capets. That's still a substantial boon and a significant step forward in the long-term goal of reunifying the Carolingian Empire. If this means they help raising the Plantagenets in the place of the Capets, well even the Romans conquered Europe one step at the time.

And conversely, if the Staufen take a considerable chunk of "Eastern France", they represent a formidable problem for the Plantagents.

Well, Capetian France was no friend of the Plantagenets in the first place, it was a clear and present threat to their continental possessions. To destroy it removes the threat and substantially aggrandizes their empire with half of the Capetian booty or so. If this means the Plantagenet Empire now has to deal with the HRE as its main security threat instead, well one enemy at a time, now the Plantagenets are much stronger than before and it is still better than the status quo. It's not like the Entente was a serious option back then.

Not to mention that their claim to being kings of France is kind of weakened by "Well, the part of France we didn't give away, that is."

Well, back then the territorial concept of "France" was rather fuzzy to begin with, and some sizable room for haggling.

The problem is, the goal for either side is mutually exclusive with the other's.

In the long-term, no doubt. If the brief term, not necessarily so.

About the only thing they share in common is their choice of target, which is more divisive than unifying, like most competitions over who controls an area (see Armenia between Rome and Persia).

Given the relative size of the target and the would-be allies of convenience, I think some more apt comparisons might perhaps be the Partitions of Poland; Germany, Russia, and Italy partitioning Austria; or my typical successful Rome and an enduring Gupta Empire partitioning Persia.
 
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Definitely.

And that's a huge if in these conditions.

One of the things I tried to lay the groundwork for in Prince of Peace was the notion of Baltic colonization as a more conciously German thing.

As late as the 16th century, Maximillian thought it was an imperial territory, after all. So I would expect to see Imperial influence in the region.
 
Realpolitick and strategy do not really change.

The only European polity that even knows what realpolitick IS in this period is the Byzantine Empire.

Medieval Western Europe is far too ignorant in the finer points of statecraft to use it as a basis for royal decisions without truly exceptional monarchs (and an Edward III that savvy is not an Edward who thinks he can take control of France).

'Partition' is the key word here. E.g. we may perhaps assume that the Empire claims the equivalent of the Duchy of Burgundy under the Charles the Bold plus Champagne, as the price for its part in putting down the Capets. That's still a substantial boon and a significant step forward in the long-term goal of reunifying the Carolingian Empire. If this means they help raising the Plantagenets in the place of the Capets, well even the Romans conquered Europe one step at the time.

The problem is not so much doing it one step at a time, as that the gains the Empire makes are balanced out and then some by the new rival.

Well, Capetian France was no friend of the Plantagenets in the first place, it was a clear and present threat to their continental possessions. To destroy it removes the threat and substantially aggrandizes their empire with half of the Capetian booty or so. If this means the Plantagenet Empire now has to deal with the HRE as its main security threat instead, well one enemy at a time, now the Plantagenets are much stronger than before and it is still better than the status quo. It's not like the Entente was a serious option back then.

Feudalism. Edward having a problem with being a mere duke is not the same as "a threat to my possessions" in the sense of later eras.

Well, back then the territorial concept of "France" was rather fuzzy to begin with, and some sizable room for haggling.

Not as fuzzy as you might think. France is a pretty stable kingdom, all things considered, in the 14th century - remember, the HRE succeeding puts it on a par with France in that regard.

In the long-term, no doubt. If the brief term, not necessarily so.

In the "this is why we're enemies of France" term. The Emperor - anyone mind me calling him Frederick III? - claiming to be "overlord of the West, before who all kings must bow" is targeting a Plantagent King of France exactly as much as a Valois king.

Given the relative size of the target and the would-be allies of convenience, I think some more apt comparisons might perhaps be the Partitions of Poland; Germany, Russia, and Italy partitioning Austria; or my typical successful Rome and an enduring Gupta Empire partitioning Persia.

The Partitions of Poland were partitioning a failed state amongst states maneuvering not to fight amongst each other.

Partitioning Austria requires Germany and Russia to have policies entirely different than OTL's to the Habsburgs.

Faeelin said:
One of the things I tried to lay the groundwork for in Prince of Peace was the notion of Baltic colonization as a more conciously German thing.

As late as the 16th century, Maximillian thought it was an imperial territory, after all. So I would expect to see Imperial influence in the region.

That could be interesting.
 
I would actually give the date for a viable HRE significantly later than you guys. I think the reichsregiment, and the imperial courts, and the diets of the 15th and 16th century show an impetus for reform which in other circumstances could have been viable.
 
I would actually give the date for a viable HRE significantly later than you guys. I think the reichsregiment, and the imperial courts, and the diets of the 15th and 16th century show an impetus for reform which in other circumstances could have been viable.

What kind of circumstances would those be, though?

I don't know very much about the period you mentioned, but it seems like more of a confederation than One Empire, under God, Centralized by the Emperor - although as I don't know the details, I could be totally wrong here.
 
What kind of circumstances would those be, though?

A different result in the early reformation, when Charles V ends up splitting off. Perhaps a successful Ottoman invasion of Italy, which pushes for reform.

The Empire was capable of raising taxes for its defense in OTL's 16th century; an expansion and consolidation of that trend is not, IMO, impossible.
 
What is the needed POD in the history of the HRE in order to make it survive?

Here have a flag

holy_roman_empire_flag_in_1861_by_33k7-d571aw1[1].png
 
A quite plausible idea....

I have an idea, which isn't all that implausible when your think about it and reckon of that era's ideas.....

What about a capetian dynast as holy roman emperor??

now please! before you send me to face the shooting squadron let's try to remember that in the middle of the middle ages (from 800 to 1300) the HRE wasn't just a German or an Italian enteprise... but because of it's distinct Christian charachter it was somehow belonging to every western christian catholic in europe of that time.... and also there historic precedents of ppl who were neither german nor burgundian that tried to take the throne of the holy roman empire in the cases of Richard of Cornwall, or Alfonso X of Castile. so now you can really see that this isn't all that preposterous idea....


Plus, another idea is to replace the Imperial Diet with something that is more than just a convention of electors, but (slowly of course) make it into a nucleus of a real Parliament by changing the role of the princes and other nobles there to something that is akin to the House of Lords in the UK... and also create a House of Burgesses for the representatives of the various important cities in the Empire....

Yet what i'm really concerned about is the relations between church and empire.... that IMHO really was the main obstacle for the evolution of a HRE as a country with a centralised gov't as was the case with Castile, France and England in the same time....
 
I have an idea, which isn't all that implausible when your think about it and reckon of that era's ideas.....

What about a capetian dynast as holy roman emperor??

now please! before you send me to face the shooting squadron let's try to remember that in the middle of the middle ages (from 800 to 1300) the HRE wasn't just a German or an Italian enteprise... but because of it's distinct Christian charachter it was somehow belonging to every western christian catholic in europe of that time.... and also there historic precedents of ppl who were neither german nor burgundian that tried to take the throne of the holy roman empire in the cases of Richard of Cornwall, or Alfonso X of Castile. so now you can really see that this isn't all that preposterous idea....

The Capets were approached OTL, weren't interested. But with a POD in this period, you could probably have an alt-Capet be very interested.

Of course, that means who knows what they'd be like.
Plus, another idea is to replace the Imperial Diet with something that is more than just a convention of electors, but (slowly of course) make it into a nucleus of a real Parliament by changing the role of the princes and other nobles there to something that is akin to the House of Lords in the UK... and also create a House of Burgesses for the representatives of the various important cities in the Empire....

That would be harder. I'm not sure what it would take to make work properly without having first gotten the imperial unity/centralization thing together.
 
A different result in the early reformation, when Charles V ends up splitting off. Perhaps a successful Ottoman invasion of Italy, which pushes for reform.

The Empire was capable of raising taxes for its defense in OTL's 16th century; an expansion and consolidation of that trend is not, IMO, impossible.

I also think that this period could found a more centralized stable state. Any successful HRE in previous times will still have the idea of a universal emperor and a universal emire around. In the 15th century, there's a clear chance of founding a centralized empire with a distinct German culture. While not that important at this period of time, it will become more and more important lateron. In particular, nationalism will arise in some form, but would be less of a threat to a German-majority state that's been united for centuries.

Now for unification, I've always thought that the Hapsburgs going Protestant would be a nice POD. But that won't be a "holy" Empire, right? Avoiding the schism within Germany/the HRE, however, is necessary to some extent. To get a "Holy Roman Empire" you'd need to have the vast majority of Germans and German princes staying somewhat Catholic: same confession for most Germans, and some impetus for Rome must remain. Lutheranism doesn't work here. A new Catholic church would?
 
This is perfect then. With a strong HRE, Prussia could be plucked into Poland's orbit and Polish Eagle has gave me a good PoD for a Polish Prussia: 1618 when Sigismund III Vasa decides not to name a successor to the Prussian throne and annexes it, or alternatively Wladyslaw IV Vasa could annex it in the same year.

If the Vasas survived, Silesia or just more parts of Silesia would had been returned to Poland since they were trying to do that as well, another is that the Masovians and Silesians should had not been alienated because alienating them would cause more harm than good to Poland since the Teutons could merge with Masovia just like Bohemia merged with Silesia in OTL and because of the alienation they needed help to survive which is having a union or alliance with Lithuania.

A Catholic Germany would be cool actually..
 
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