That could work. Would a strong HRE be able to prevent Prussia from taking some of its territories if there was going to be a Kingdom of Prussia?
Definitely.
And that's a huge if in these conditions.
That could work. Would a strong HRE be able to prevent Prussia from taking some of its territories if there was going to be a Kingdom of Prussia?
The political systems being wholly different and stuff is part of why this really isn't a similar situation.
Not sure if I follow this logic. They replace the Capets with the Plantagents, and this makes things -easier-?
And conversely, if the Staufen take a considerable chunk of "Eastern France", they represent a formidable problem for the Plantagents.
Not to mention that their claim to being kings of France is kind of weakened by "Well, the part of France we didn't give away, that is."
The problem is, the goal for either side is mutually exclusive with the other's.
About the only thing they share in common is their choice of target, which is more divisive than unifying, like most competitions over who controls an area (see Armenia between Rome and Persia).
Definitely.
And that's a huge if in these conditions.
Realpolitick and strategy do not really change.
'Partition' is the key word here. E.g. we may perhaps assume that the Empire claims the equivalent of the Duchy of Burgundy under the Charles the Bold plus Champagne, as the price for its part in putting down the Capets. That's still a substantial boon and a significant step forward in the long-term goal of reunifying the Carolingian Empire. If this means they help raising the Plantagenets in the place of the Capets, well even the Romans conquered Europe one step at the time.
Well, Capetian France was no friend of the Plantagenets in the first place, it was a clear and present threat to their continental possessions. To destroy it removes the threat and substantially aggrandizes their empire with half of the Capetian booty or so. If this means the Plantagenet Empire now has to deal with the HRE as its main security threat instead, well one enemy at a time, now the Plantagenets are much stronger than before and it is still better than the status quo. It's not like the Entente was a serious option back then.
Well, back then the territorial concept of "France" was rather fuzzy to begin with, and some sizable room for haggling.
In the long-term, no doubt. If the brief term, not necessarily so.
Given the relative size of the target and the would-be allies of convenience, I think some more apt comparisons might perhaps be the Partitions of Poland; Germany, Russia, and Italy partitioning Austria; or my typical successful Rome and an enduring Gupta Empire partitioning Persia.
Faeelin said:One of the things I tried to lay the groundwork for in Prince of Peace was the notion of Baltic colonization as a more conciously German thing.
As late as the 16th century, Maximillian thought it was an imperial territory, after all. So I would expect to see Imperial influence in the region.
I would actually give the date for a viable HRE significantly later than you guys. I think the reichsregiment, and the imperial courts, and the diets of the 15th and 16th century show an impetus for reform which in other circumstances could have been viable.
What kind of circumstances would those be, though?
That could work. Would a strong HRE be able to prevent Prussia from taking some of its territories if there was going to be a Kingdom of Prussia?
What is the needed POD in the history of the HRE in order to make it survive?
I have an idea, which isn't all that implausible when your think about it and reckon of that era's ideas.....
What about a capetian dynast as holy roman emperor??
now please! before you send me to face the shooting squadron let's try to remember that in the middle of the middle ages (from 800 to 1300) the HRE wasn't just a German or an Italian enteprise... but because of it's distinct Christian charachter it was somehow belonging to every western christian catholic in europe of that time.... and also there historic precedents of ppl who were neither german nor burgundian that tried to take the throne of the holy roman empire in the cases of Richard of Cornwall, or Alfonso X of Castile. so now you can really see that this isn't all that preposterous idea....
Plus, another idea is to replace the Imperial Diet with something that is more than just a convention of electors, but (slowly of course) make it into a nucleus of a real Parliament by changing the role of the princes and other nobles there to something that is akin to the House of Lords in the UK... and also create a House of Burgesses for the representatives of the various important cities in the Empire....
A different result in the early reformation, when Charles V ends up splitting off. Perhaps a successful Ottoman invasion of Italy, which pushes for reform.
The Empire was capable of raising taxes for its defense in OTL's 16th century; an expansion and consolidation of that trend is not, IMO, impossible.
This is perfect then. With a strong HRE, Prussia could be plucked into Poland's orbit and Polish Eagle has gave me a good PoD for a Polish Prussia: 1618 when Sigismund III Vasa decides not to name a successor to the Prussian throne and annexes it, or alternatively Wladyslaw IV Vasa could annex it in the same year.