A surviving Egyptian language and its impact on Middle Eastern pop culture

[ramones1986]

In the thread "Not enough Coptic Egyptian timelines" by Grouchio, I suggested an idea in relation to Egypt and its language. Here it is:

Arab warriors invaded Egypt, propagating Islam to the Egyptians, especially those who lived in the lower and middle parts of the country. The difference is that the Egyptian tongue remained the language spoken by most of the population, (which means "Coptic" is just another phase in the history of Egyptian language in this scenario) and its status became more prominent and prestigious thanks to epics "The Tale of Kemet", compiled and written by Iraqi-born Ibn Wahshiyya and a retelling of "Tales of the Kings of Kemet" in Egypto-Arabic script. In effect, this alternate Egypt is another counterpart of Persia/Iran, with a little bit of difference: predominantly Muslim, speaking it own language, but with a sizable Coptic (and Christian in general) minority.

Here's the original version of the idea, as I wrote it on DeviantArt:

Arab warriors invaded Egypt, propagating Islam to the people of (Lower) Egypt. The difference is that the Egyptian tongue remained the language spoken by most of the population, (which means "Coptic" is just another phase in the history of Egyptian language in this scenario) and its status became more prominent and prestigious thanks to epics "The Tale of Kemet", compiled and written by Iraqi-born Ibn Wahshiyya and a retelling of "Tales of the Kings of Kemet" in Egypto-Arabic script. In effect, this alternate Egypt is another counterpart of Persia/Iran, with a little bit of difference: predominantly Muslim, speaking it own language, but with a sizable Coptic (and Christian in general) minority.

Given the PoD, I wonder what this scenario affect the pop culture of the rest of Middle East, especially the motion-picture and recording industry; what country will replace Cairo/Giza as the center of Arabic-language film industry? Will Umm Khultum still famous in the rest of the region like in OTL, or someone will assume her RL popularity? (Well, given the scenario, I think she's still famous in Egypt, but she's singing in the Egyptian language.)

Express your opinion, guys!

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[ramones1986]

Bumping...

I hope anyone's interested...

 

[Some Bloke]

I'm interested but I can't contribute.

 

[ramones1986]

I'm interested but I can't contribute.

I understand, as people like Leo Cassius were banned for a long time.

 

[Delvestius]

Well seeing as that Arabic only overtook Coptic as the most spoken language until the sixteenth century, and that today Egypt is still 15% Coptic Christian, I don't think this would be all to hard to maintain. That being said the conception as "Arabic" being a holy and permanent language, as well as a unifying aspect of Arab peoples, would most likely go by the wayside, and we would have a very different middle east. If Islamic Egypt is significantly less "Arab" in its formative centuries, the prestige of the Arabic language among Islam would would fall drastically, as would any any post-colonial pan-Arab endeavors.

 

[ramones1986]

Shamelessly bumping

 

[othyrsyde]

I understand, as people like Leo Cassius were banned for a long time.

Actually he self-banned and that was only two or three months ago now.

 

[Namayan]

Express your opinion, guys!

It would be nice to see a Pagan Egypt surviving present day over a Christian or an Islamic one. Hindu is still the predominant religion in India rather than Islam even though India was under Islamic rule for quite sometime.

A Pharaoh still leading his country until modern times would be quite interesting with a rebuilt Memphis.

 

[Delvestius]

A Pharaoh still leading his country until modern times would be quite interesting with a rebuilt Memphis.

The only timeline in which I see this really happening is if Christian-influenced Greek Gnosticism is applied syncretically to their polytheism, instead of wholly adopting Christianity, and having the ideas spread to Hellenistic Egypt.

 

[Namayan]

The only timeline in which I see this really happening is if Christian-influenced Greek Gnosticism is applied syncretically to their polytheism, instead of wholly adopting Christianity, and having the ideas spread to Hellenistic Egypt.

An Egypt more resistant to Greco-roman and Arab culture is quite viable. Egypt is far more older than those newer cultures.

But if a Coptic independent country, a rebellion when the crusades initial Egyptian invasion. So egypt would be under the Copts from then on instead of the ayyubids. However, egypt under Copts from 1100s until present day would mean Islamic minority due to egypt being ruled by Copts longer the Islamic rulers.

 

[ramones1986]

It would be nice to see a Pagan Egypt surviving present day over a Christian or an Islamic one. Hindu is still the predominant religion in India rather than Islam even though India was under Islamic rule for quite sometime.

Well, Egypt's pagan past was commemorated in my PoD idea though.

A Pharaoh still leading his country until modern times would be quite interesting with a rebuilt Memphis.

The title Pharaoh can be revived by either a native Muslim Egyptian dynasty or a group of foreign warrior class that were assimilated into Egyptian society. After all, Egypt is just another Iran in my PoD.

 

[ramones1986]

Actually he self-banned and that was only two or three months ago now.

Too bad, as he was one of experts here in relation to the Middle East.

 

[Ultimate Paragon]

That would be interesting to see.

 

[Blackfox5]

Given the PoD, I wonder what this scenario affect the pop culture of the rest of Middle East, especially the motion-picture and recording industry; what country will replace Cairo/Giza as the center of Arabic-language film industry?

Initially that would be Beirut. Lebanon is Arabic speaking and has the wealth and technical skills to do it. After it blows up in civil war, the film industry might still survive, but a lot of people would flee and try to start elsewhere.

Damascus or Baghdad would be the next logical place depending on what each city is like in this timeline. Not sure how many butterflies you anticipate.

 

[ramones1986]

Initially that would be Beirut. Lebanon is Arabic speaking and has the wealth and technical skills to do it.

Damascus or Baghdad would be the next logical place depending on what each city is like in this timeline. Not sure how many butterflies you anticipate.

Although Beirut is a good subtitute, I prefer Damascus or even Tripoli in Lebanon.

 

[SpamBotSam]

It would be nice to see a Pagan Egypt surviving present day over a Christian or an Islamic one. Hindu is still the predominant religion in India rather than Islam even though India was under Islamic rule for quite sometime.

A Pharaoh still leading his country until modern times would be quite interesting with a rebuilt Memphis.

I dont think that would be likely. Very few countries nowadays actually have non figurehead royalty. Most countries with kings and queens, like England, just have them as figureheads.

 

[Crusader FG.1]

Coptic language of Egypt

An Egypt more resistant to Greco-roman and Arab culture is quite viable. Egypt is far more older than those newer cultures.

But if a Coptic independent country, a rebellion when the crusades initial Egyptian invasion. So egypt would be under the Copts from then on instead of the ayyubids. However, egypt under Copts from 1100s until present day would mean Islamic minority due to egypt being ruled by Copts longer the Islamic rulers.

That's a sollution. I agree, that keeping Coptic as a spoken language would be possible, but only with Egypt as a Christian country, so either above or the 642 invasion unsuccesfull, but with Egypt gaining independence from Byzantium because of that or later.

The greek culture and language were strong in Ptolemaic Egypt, but with introduction of Christianity, Egyptians got a new tool to keep their language and "national" identity (the churches of the east used native languages - obviously Greek, but with increasing role of both Syriac and Coptic).

It turned that in Egypt there were two major ethnic groups and churches - greek (for significant part of ruling minority) and egyptian (coptic - for the rest). I'm concvinced I've read that the greek-speaking minority was getting weaker before arab conquest.