A supersonic A-7 with afterburning TF41, 1963.

As said in the title. In 1963 the USAF is forced to take the A-7 from the USN. First they reject the TF30 as per OTL.
Then somebody gets a bright idea
- F-105 are supersonic
- British Phantoms have afterburner on Spey
The result: the USAF gets A-7F long before the 80's. In Vietnam. It proves outstanding replacing the Thuds and this ricochet on the A-10 antitank program.

Down the line this give Vought a valuable successor to the defunct Crusader out of production since 1966. A supersonic bird.
That sells well on export markets and in 1970 screw the F-5E.

The USN is gradually interested and this impacts the Hornet head on.
 
An old pet idea of mine I love the late Vought fatty birds.
I think the A-10 scenario is interesting, potentially 700 aircraft there and no Hornet or F-5E.
OTL the A-7F was done in the 80's because the A10 was too slow and vulnerable. Well how about trying right from 1971 ?
 
Unfortunately the A7 story is far more complex than that.

On the USAF side the F105 was replaced in the primary nuclear strike role by the TFX. I believe the A7 replaced the F100 and A1 in the CAS role and where its subsonic performance was not vastly inferior, but its efficiency was vastly superior to the F100. Of course the Vietnam war got in the way; the TFX had a troubled development and the F105 took serious losses in Rolling Thunder which also used up airframe fatigue life of the fleet. However the Phantom, IIUC mainly the F4D, bridged the gap between these two types.

As for the USN the early 60s plan was for the big carriers to have a sqn of Fleet-Interceptor aircraft (the TFX-F111B) and three sqns of a new type to replace the F4 and TF30 A7A under the VFAX programme. However both of these programmes were shit; the TFX was underpowered, overweight and limited to the FI role with no scope for fighter-escort/air-superiority roles. The early 60s iteration of the VFAX concept development showed by 1967 that the resultant aircraft would be significantly worse in the fighter-escort/air-superiority than the F4 and in the attack role than the A7. Adding to this was the results of Rolling Thunder air to air combat, where the F8 at the end of its career was doing well against the Soviet made fighters.

In about 1967 Grumman, who were working on the F111B to make it lighter, figured out that they could fit the AWG9-Phoenix into a lighter fighter that could also dogfight like and F8. They presented their Design 303 to the USN who immediately changed their CVW plan from 1 FI and 3 VFAX sqns to 2 VFX sqns and 2 light attack sqns, and launched the VFX programme which the F14 Tomcat won. With the VFX taking on 2 of the roles of the VFAX it was decided that the Spey version of the A7A was improved enough for the needs of the 2 attack sqns in the CVW. In the end the USN signed the contract for the A7E something like 8 months after the cancellation of the F111B, which was very fast for such significant changes in plans.
 
I see the point. lets try something different.
Basically VAL in 1963 has one major change compared to OTL.
That is: the A-7 has afterburner right from the beginning. USN and USAF variants included, TF-30 or TF-41.
The gist is to create the A-7F right from the beginning, 20 years in advance and explore the consequences.
So most of OTL A-7 procurement stay in place.
By the early 1970 the aircraft finds another niche: the A-10 never happens and 700 alt A-7 are procured instead.

Even if the Hornet prevails with the USN in the end (although RANGE will be a major issue) fact is that Vought now has a supersonic bomb truck with unique capabilities. It sells better than OTL on export markets.
A LWF variant finally brings back the lost Crusader.
By 1968 Vought decides to scrap its V-1000 Crusader and enter the A-7 against the F-5E for IFA. While it lose in 1970 foreign customers are no dupe: the A-7 bury the F-5E in performance. As such a significant chunk of OTL Tiger II sales pass to Vought.
 
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Fair enough. Vought could strip down some of the most expensive avionics. Dassault did that many times, turning the Mirage IIIE into the V or the F-1CZ into the AZ.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
The A-7D/E was not great at air-to-air. He is talking about a reworked YA-7F, which was more oriented towards a combination of bomber/ground attack and air-to-air.
 
The A-7D/E was not great at air-to-air. He is talking about a reworked YA-7F, which was more oriented towards a combination of bomber/ground attack and air-to-air.

I know; it lost it's place to the multipurpose F-16. The alterations were not suficient to make it a good air-air plane.
 
Spot on. I know both F-16 and Hornet are better the deal is to sneak past them in time (1965) and through OTL A-7 and A-10 orders. More A2G than A2A overall. Plus exports orders for both ground and naval variants - Swiss Greek Thai Portuguese and also French Navy in place of S.E.
By the way in A2G CAS missions the A-7F is superior to both Hornet and F-16 in range notably. The rounded, barrel shape fat with fuel really helps.

What is really surprising with OTL A-7F was that the prototypes and 300 machines were to be REBUILD, SUBSONIC A-7D. Turned into supersonic aircraft with an afterburner. I can't remind any modern airframe rebuild this way, subsonic to supersonic is no easy step.
 
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Thai Portuguese and also French Navy in place of S.E.

To be fair, Portugal didn't "order" the A-7. Those were early Vietnam era A models that were pretty much gifted at bargain prices... cause that's all we could afford. :(

There's no way we could aford this new model. And that's assuming the politics of that time would allow it.
 
I've just checked wiki list of fighters designations after the 1962 tri-service change.
F-7 was applied to the... Convair Sea Dart that had stopped flying by 1957. Never entering service.
And since the Crusader was F-8... ITTL I can see Vought pissing off MDD and their Hornet calling their bird the F/A-7.
Yeah: F/A-7 Corsair III.
 
I've just checked wiki list of fighters designations after the 1962 tri-service change.
F-7 was applied to the... Convair Sea Dart that had stopped flying by 1957. Never entering service.
And since the Crusader was F-8... ITTL I can see Vought pissing off MDD and their Hornet calling their bird the F/A-7.
Yeah: F/A-7 Corsair III.

And since the USAF operates the A-7 as well, does this challenge the F-16?
 
And since the USAF operates the A-7 as well, does this challenge the F-16?
With the end of the Vietnam War in sight, having the OTL A-7 attack aircraft freed the Boyd and the rest of the Fighter Mafia from worrying about ground attack, and was able to refocus the F-X program(that was F-111 sized) to the F-15 and birthed the Lightweight fighter program, since the F-15 would be expensive for its air superiority role
'Not a Pound for Air to Ground' was born

An earlier improved A-7F would steal the thunder of the F-5, not the F-16
 
Interesting last two posts. That earlier A-7F is indeed hard to fit into any box. It is not a Skyhawk nor a F-105, but something in-between.

About the F-5: the F-5A happened two years before VAL so the Tiger is already in the place.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f5_1.html

With perfect 2019 hindsight the F-5E sounds like an unavoidable development from the F-5A. Yet IFA (International Fighter Aircraft) in 1970 could have turned otherwise.
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f5_25.html

I remember reading somewhere that, with IFA facing MiG-21s then Vought V-1000 Crusader derivative (with a J79) was prefered to the F-5E which performance was lower. Of course experience show that pilot skills, not performance, decides of the win, and F-5E did an excellent jobs against MiG-21s. Iran - Iraq was clear on the subject.

The point I want to make is that, even with a crapload of F-5A everywhere, IFA was not bound to be won by the F-5E. So maybe OTL Vought could have had a chance with the V-1000 or, ITTL, with the F/A-7 Corsair III.

A J79 Crusader is one of my favorite whatif. The V-1000 would have been a terrific aircraft, either in place of the F-5E (ground based) or as a Crusader successor on the last Essex and... French Clemenceau carriers. The J79 is minuscule compared to the J57, solving the Crusader biggest issue: too long of a rear fuselage scrapping the carrier deck even with the VI wing.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/vought-v-1000-international-fighter-aircraft.14/
 
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With the end of the Vietnam War in sight, having the OTL A-7 attack aircraft freed the Boyd and the rest of the Fighter Mafia from worrying about ground attack, and was able to refocus the F-X program(that was F-111 sized) to the F-15 and birthed the Lightweight fighter program, since the F-15 would be expensive for its air superiority role
'Not a Pound for Air to Ground' was born

An earlier improved A-7F would steal the thunder of the F-5, not the F-16

Not a Pound for Air to Ground only applied to the F-15 though, the F-16 was meant to be multi-role from the start.
 
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