A successful Revolt of the Comuneros

How is it possible for the junta led by Juan de Padilla to be successful against the royalist Castilians and drive out the Hapsburgs from power? They did attempt to establish a national government in the name of Charles' mother, Juana of Castile but lost the nobility's support when they abolished their privileges and asserted democracy.
 
This has been heavily debated in my own Heart of the Empire TL, basically what they need is recognition from the Mad Queen (which they could do by simply holding her hostage) and I would say getting France to interfeare. Along with Charles being more apathetic to his Spanish holdings.
 
I'd say the Revolt of the Comuneros was more reminiscent of the old anti-feudal revolts than anything geniunely democratic. After all, their main goal was to ensure Juana ruled. Despite her mental instability, many say she wasn't actually as mad as many think, but rather because of her depression and such, a variety of men, from her husband, to her father, to her son, were able to take advantage of her. Of course, this revolt is likely to take advantage of her as well if it succeeds; she seemed to know this, as she refused to work with them or sign any of their Edicts.

Maybe we see her recognized as indisputable sovereign of Castile and Aragon if she does go along with it (the Revolt of the Germanies was happening in the same period -- maybe they could link up?). We'd also see Charles' and his Flemish retinue forced out, and perhaps Juana is forced to recognize Ferdinand as her heir rather than Charles. That was something that Ferdinand of Aragon wished, as Ferdinand, his namesake, had been born and raised in Spain.
 
Pardon the one-liners Drake, I know you don't like them but if the Revolt of the Comuneros is successful and Queen Juana is recognized as sovereign with her son Ferdinand as heir, what would be the effects on Spain's colonies or the Hapsburg dominions elsewhere in Europe? Or the effects on its rivals?

Would the Cortes have more power than in OTL?
 
Pardon the one-liners Drake, I know you don't like them but if the Revolt of the Comuneros is successful and Queen Juana is recognized as sovereign with her son Ferdinand as heir, what would be the effects on Spain's colonies or the Hapsburg dominions elsewhere in Europe? Or the effects on its rivals?

Would the Cortes have more power than in OTL?

It's quite alright; you ask some good questions.

As for the effects on Spain's colonies, I suspect it might be business as usual. The Conquistadors are still going to be eager to go abroad, as the the defeat of Granada created a class of bored, zealous, and landless nobles who were eager to fight. This timed perfectly with the discovery of the Americas. There might be a little chaos, but I think otherwise it'd be the same. Maybe a little shakeup, but I don't think anyone for instance, would rally to Charles. They'd probably just accept the fait accompli that Juana has been rightfully put in her place. Even during Charles' reign, she was still recognized as Queen, and he as her co-ruler... news would also take so long to get to the Americas that the revolt would probably be over and new officials shipped in before they know anything is up.

The Habsburgs are going to be in an odd position. Charles has already secured the election of the Holy Roman Empire, but he'd be reduced to the Low Lands and Austria. The biggest butterfly may be Ferdinand's marriage. Assuming things get chaotic quickly, he may not marry Anna of Bohemia and Hungary... or, if he has married her, things might get odd if he's heir to Spain and Mohacs still happens.

In the short term though, France benefits. She probably asserts herself in Italy and there is no Battle of Pavia. François Ier ends in the mid-1520s with peace suitable to him. At least so long as Juana is on the throne, I think we might see Spain dip into a splendid isolation. Ferdinand might try to influence things, maybe try to be appointed co-ruler with his mother with promises to only have Spanish councilors, ect, which might go over well with Spanish, especially if Juana starts acting eratic again. The Habsburgs will still rule in Spain, but a different branch.

As for the Cortes (that is, the Cortes of Castile--Aragon had her own seperate Cortes, but isn't as important to this question), they might be able to reassert themselves. After all, it was the Catholic Monarchs who went about diminishing the power of the nobility and the bourgeoisie, rendering the Cortes as a rubberstamp institution. Isabella herself had a difficult time getting funding for Columbus because of the Cortes. The influx of gold made their need less important, but they still had some control over economic affairs, especially taxation. Considering the origins of the Comuneros, I could see the urban bourgeoisie along with the nobility of the Cortes attempt to regain some lost ground, in hopes of tempering the Comuneros and their various demands. This might be a perfect chance for the Cortes in Castile to gain true and definitive power over the purse. Yes, gold will still be coming into Spain, but perhaps it is viewed not as the crown's gold, but as that Cortes. May be a bit radical for the period, but I'm not sure.
 
I'd say the Revolt of the Comuneros was more reminiscent of the old anti-feudal revolts than anything geniunely democratic. After all, their main goal was to ensure Juana ruled. Despite her mental instability, many say she wasn't actually as mad as many think, but rather because of her depression and such, a variety of men, from her husband, to her father, to her son, were able to take advantage of her. Of course, this revolt is likely to take advantage of her as well if it succeeds; she seemed to know this, as she refused to work with them or sign any of their Edicts.

Maybe we see her recognized as indisputable sovereign of Castile and Aragon if she does go along with it (the Revolt of the Germanies was happening in the same period -- maybe they could link up?). We'd also see Charles' and his Flemish retinue forced out, and perhaps Juana is forced to recognize Ferdinand as her heir rather than Charles. That was something that Ferdinand of Aragon wished, as Ferdinand, his namesake, had been born and raised in Spain.


I disagree. Their main goal was not to ensure that Juana ruled. Their main goal was to ensure that the Cortes ruled and the old law inspired/based on the Partidas was respected. Juana was seen as the mean to ensure that since thre was a need of legitimation through a royal figure from the legitimate dinasty. That said, certainly calling the comuneros revolt a democratic revolt is going too far, and as always things are more polifaceted than reductionist, teleologic interpreetations. We are in the early 16th century, in the alte 18th century and the 19th century getting rid of the monarch was still a challenge on the field of public mentalities and politically puzzling)

As I say, there was, for example, also vindication of old laws. The problem here is that we tend to understand history and specially Modernity as a continious linear path, thus the problems of interpretation with the Comuneros and with many other mevements around the Atlantic World in the Modern Age. To sumamrize, there is the possibility that medieval castilian laws and structures were closer to the liberal spirit than the alternative impossed by the Habsburgs, while at the same time they were the product of a feudal, or feudal-ish world.

That said, probably the key for a possible victory of the Comuneros, as far as I can think the only one, is in the meeting between Padilla and Juana in Tordesillas with a different result. A big problem for the Comuneros was that, despite they represented a larger portion of the castilian society than their foes, they weren't a match for nobiliar armies on the field. Their main forces, the Milicias Concejiles, were only partial-time light infantrymen designed as auxiliars in the battle and as public order force in peacetime so, we need a way to balance things. I think that it's possible to have Juana to sign the documents presented to her by the Santa Junta. Thus, as Adrian of Utrech feared in a letter sent to Charles ("if your mother joins the revolt the kingdom is lost", said) some important loyalties cound switch. Juana was sympathetic towards comuneros demands, and he had very kind words to Padilla ("go ahead, captain, and punish the bad guys" it's said she told him) but she didn't dare to take the risk of making their support official. Perhaps se still thought she had something to lose, perhaps it was a caprice or who knows. But a differetn outcome with the queen on a different mood is not totally out of possibility, also, some astute counterfaction of their sign could have made the work, but probably nobody thought on it.

So, if Juana joins the comuneros open and officaly some important players could start to rethink ther positions. I'm mainly thinking in the powerful Mendoza familly, also a familly known by their humanists, artistic patronage and some eccentrities. Padilla's wife, María Pacheco (who continued the combat from Toledo after her husband's death), not less, was a member of that familly. With the queen on the side of the Comuneros I think the Mendozas, or a part of them, could try some kind of William of Orange avant la lettre. They could add true soldiers to the Comunero army and attract to the cause smaller houses while other big famillies could start to evaluate their options and risks. In fact, some of th Mendoza, beyond María Pacheco, were symapthetic towards the comuneros in OTL, so I'm rather thinking on boosting and spreading this attitude.

Of course it could cause some problems regarding the form of the new state once there are big aristocrats involved, specially considering that in some parts of the crown the peasants had started to evict the nobles from their lands, but with a point of gravitation (the crown) and good results in the battlefield I think a compromise would be still possible. Still there would be probably a very clear political divide between the lands north of the Cantabric Range line and the lands in the plateau.

Finally, regarding Aragon, I think the most probable outcome is the disolution of the dynastic union, probably a friendly dissolution, since neither the castilian and aragonese Cortes were ever very enthusiastic with it. It's difficult to make the aragonese Cortes to officially proclaim a queen. Meanwhile, in the kingdoms of Valencia and Balearics a somewaht similar revolt to those of tha Comuneros is ongoing, and probably the Aragonese nobility would be as a quickly as possible to smash it after a different outcome right next door.

EDIT: I forgot. Regarding the aragonese question, probably we could have an interesting time after Juana's death in both iberian crowns and the inheritance.

Cheers.
 
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Regarding the colonies, and the proccess of colonization (which was at its beggining at the moment) I have some ideas, though in the essential I agree with DrakeRlugia, don't expect saints in the Americas, I foresee some possible changes in the objetives, nand nature of the conquest and in the social origin of the conquerors. But I'm "a bit" tired now, sorry, I'll try to develop my ideas tomorrow or after tomorrow.

Cheers.
 
I disagree. Their main goal was not to ensure that Juana ruled. Their main goal was to ensure that the Cortes ruled and the old law inspired/based on the Partidas was respected. Juana was seen as the mean to ensure that since thre was a need of legitimation through a royal figure from the legitimate dinasty. That said, certainly calling the comuneros revolt a democratic revolt is going too far, and as always things are more polifaceted than reductionist, teleologic interpreetations. We are in the early 16th century, in the alte 18th century and the 19th century getting rid of the monarch was still a challenge on the field of public mentalities and politically puzzling)

As I say, there was, for example, also vindication of old laws. The problem here is that we tend to understand history and specially Modernity as a continious linear path, thus the problems of interpretation with the Comuneros and with many other mevements around the Atlantic World in the Modern Age. To sumamrize, there is the possibility that medieval castilian laws and structures were closer to the liberal spirit than the alternative impossed by the Habsburgs, while at the same time they were the product of a feudal, or feudal-ish world.

That said, probably the key for a possible victory of the Comuneros, as far as I can think the only one, is in the meeting between Padilla and Juana in Tordesillas with a different result. A big problem for the Comuneros was that, despite they represented a larger portion of the castilian society than their foes, they weren't a match for nobiliar armies on the field. Their main forces, the Milicias Concejiles, were only partial-time light infantrymen designed as auxiliars in the battle and as public order force in peacetime so, we need a way to balance things. I think that it's possible to have Juana to sign the documents presented to her by the Santa Junta. Thus, as Adrian of Utrech feared in a letter sent to Charles ("if your mother joins the revolt the kingdom is lost", said) some important loyalties cound switch. Juana was sympathetic towards comuneros demands, and he had very kind words to Padilla ("go ahead, captain, and punish the bad guys" it's said she told him) but she didn't dare to take the risk of making their support official. Perhaps se still thought she had something to lose, perhaps it was a caprice or who knows. But a differetn outcome with the queen on a different mood is not totally out of possibility, also, some astute counterfaction of their sign could have made the work, but probably nobody thought on it.

So, if Juana joins the comuneros open and officaly some important players could start to rethink ther positions. I'm mainly thinking in the powerful Mendoza familly, also a familly known by their humanists, artistic patronage and some eccentrities. Padilla's wife, María Pacheco (who continued the combat from Toledo after her husband's death), not less, was a member of that familly. With the queen on the side of the Comuneros I think the Mendozas, or a part of them, could try some kind of William of Orange avant la lettre. They could add true soldiers to the Comunero army and attract to the cause smaller houses while other big famillies could start to evaluate their options and risks. In fact, some of th Mendoza, beyond María Pacheco, were symapthetic towards the comuneros in OTL, so I'm rather thinking on boosting and spreading this attitude.

Of course it could cause some problems regarding the form of the new state once there are big aristocrats involved, specially considering that in some parts of the crown the peasants had started to evict the nobles from their lands, but with a point of gravitation (the crown) and good results in the battlefield I think a compromise would be still possible. Still there would be probably a very clear political divide between the lands north of the Cantabric Range line and the lands in the plateau.

Finally, regarding Aragon, I think the most probable outcome is the disolution of the dynastic union, probably a friendly dissolution, since neither the castilian and aragonese Cortes were ever very enthusiastic with it. It's difficult to make the aragonese Cortes to officially proclaim a queen. Meanwhile, in the kingdoms of Valencia and Balearics a somewaht similar revolt to those of tha Comuneros is ongoing, and probably the Aragonese nobility would be as a quickly as possible to smash it after a different outcome right next door.

EDIT: I forgot. Regarding the aragonese question, probably we could have an interesting time after Juana's death in both iberian crowns and the inheritance.

Cheers.

How was it not a revolt to see Juana reign? The Communities tired of the foreigners, that is, Charles V and his Flemish retinue. Juana proved a good rallying point as they could control her madness. Now, I'm not sure how mad she actually was, we'll probably never know. But it was probably more like a crippling depression, not something such as schizophrenia. Madness did run within the royal house of Castile, but Juana most certainly inherited it from her Portuguese grandmother. The rebels chose her as their figurehead for a reason. Perhaps to take advantage of her, but I think she merely had severe clinical depression. But because she was 'hysterical,' men could take advantage of that and lock her up. She was astute enough, given she refused to govern for them. It was definitely a typical anti-feudal revolt, as the Comuneros supported peasant revolts against the landed nobility.

Of course, what kind of revolt it is is still a matter of debate. Some consider it a moderate revolution, whilst conservative historians take the modern side. I spoke only of what I know, so you make many good points... I just think it's anachronistic to name it a democratic revolution when they were still operating within the framework of a feudal society. Did they want Charles out? Yes. But only to replace him. Not to do away with the position of monarch totally.
 

Thande

Donor
I've always found the Comuneros interesting, they're much like the Peasants' Revolt in England in that sometimes they look like an ordinary anti-feudal revolt and sometimes like something genuinely new and revolutionary. Makes it quite hard to figure out what would have happened if either group had been successful.
 
Sane or not, I think the imprisoned Juana had little prestige by that time. To me, the Comunero revolt broadly presaged the Fronde.
Was there a precedent for protracted regencies in Castile?
 
About Aragon I am sure the noblemen would have to decide between having a Queen or having a king/queen they could use more easily. The Mad Queen would be ideal for that.
 
How was it not a revolt to see Juana reign? The Communities tired of the foreigners, that is, Charles V and his Flemish retinue. Juana proved a good rallying point as they could control her madness. Now, I'm not sure how mad she actually was, we'll probably never know. But it was probably more like a crippling depression, not something such as schizophrenia. Madness did run within the royal house of Castile, but Juana most certainly inherited it from her Portuguese grandmother. The rebels chose her as their figurehead for a reason. Perhaps to take advantage of her, but I think she merely had severe clinical depression. But because she was 'hysterical,' men could take advantage of that and lock her up. She was astute enough, given she refused to govern for them. It was definitely a typical anti-feudal revolt, as the Comuneros supported peasant revolts against the landed nobility.

Of course, what kind of revolt it is is still a matter of debate. Some consider it a moderate revolution, whilst conservative historians take the modern side. I spoke only of what I know, so you make many good points... I just think it's anachronistic to name it a democratic revolution when they were still operating within the framework of a feudal society. Did they want Charles out? Yes. But only to replace him. Not to do away with the position of monarch totally.

I think we have a misunderstanding here, probably due to my horrible english.

Regarding the goal of the Comuneros, what I say is that their furthermost objetive was not to make Juana queen (or actual queen, since nominally she was still the queen) for the shake of making her queen, but to make the Cortes to have the upper hand over the issues of the kingdom. Of course, the only way to get this was with Juana on the throne, so the revolt was also for the rights of Juana. Also, we have to consider the concept of royalty displayed in the comunero manifiestos and resolutions, which was not new either, and that could help us to conciliate our points of view. It can be summarized in that phrase all the incomming monarchs of Castile and Leon had to hear in their coronation in the Cortes. More or less, "Remember that you are our mercenary and in those terms we accept you as sovereing"and more stuff in similar ways.

Regarding Juana's madness I agree completly with you. I'm not psychiatrist nor have knowledge on the field, so I can't guess a diagnosis, but yes, she was a very inteligent, well educated woman in a world hostile to that kind of woman and in a very particular political imbroglio, so the records about her madness probably have a lot of propaganda. I remember that, when she was dying, Philip II sent his personal confessor to confess his grandmother, and he said that he didn't notized a trace of madness on her.

I also agree with you about calling it a democratic revolt, and I'm aware about the different historiographic positions. Probably, due to the diversity inside the Comuneros and the ideological conflict between a past with more rights and a more authoritarian present-future, there is a bit of truth on most of them. Perhaps, also, a aprt of the problem, are those stereotypes about the middle Ages we have inherited from the Renaissance and the Enlightment and often, despite we are informed, we can't avoid them working on our subsconcious. As Thande says, depending on how you wacht it, it seems a different a thing.

I hope I've managed to clarify mi points.

Cheers.
 
I hate to revive old threads since I have not much to contribute myself but I do hope there's more people who can offer much more insight as to what may happen, not to say that those who responded didn't.
 
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