A Stronger Jewish Religion?

I have looked at many scenarios involving a greater Jewish presence, but I noticed that in every one of them Judaism is still very minor compared to the larger Christian and Muslim world. I have always wondered what it would be if Judaism would have become a religion with the same strength and influence as Christianity or Islam.

Is it possible to have a TL that has Judaism as the main religion, or at least one of the most powerful ones? Preferably, not involving a Greater Israel. POD not earlier than 30 A.D.

What would the consequences of Judaism becoming a strong religion be? What would happen to Christians, Pagans and Muslims? (If Muhammad is not butterflied away).
 

Zioneer

Banned
I have looked at many scenarios involving a greater Jewish presence, but I noticed that in every one of them Judaism is still very minor compared to the larger Christian and Muslim world. I have always wondered what it would be if Judaism would have become a religion with the same strength and influence as Christianity or Islam.

Is it possible to have a TL that has Judaism as the main religion, or at least one of the most powerful ones? Preferably, not involving a Greater Israel. POD not earlier than 30 A.D.

What would the consequences of Judaism becoming a strong religion be? What would happen to Christians, Pagans and Muslims? (If Muhammad is not butterflied away).

Eeeh, well it's after your preferred PoD, but I do have a sleeping TL on the Khazars, who were Jewish Turks living in the Ukraine area, being a massive, decentralized state.
 
Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism doesn't encourage the conversion of non-Jews and even more, it actually discourages it. So probably you'd have to change that first in order to have a Judaism able to compete with Christianity and Islam.

But it would be hard, given the, again unlike Christianity and Islam, ethnoreligious (?) nature of Judaism.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The problem are when we adapt Judaism to religion, which people want to convert to (at least in large quantities), suddenly it isn't Judaism any longer. Christianity and Islam are just as related to the old Judaic religion as modern Judaism are, but the latter are seen as the evolution of old Judaism rather than just a branch among many. This is becase the members are descendants of the orginal members, while in Islam and Christinity they are converts.
 
the active discouragement came about when Jews were persecuted by Christians.

Seconded.

Without that, the non-conversion stuff won't come about.

In the Gospel of Matthew (IIRC), Jesus inveighs against the religious leadership of His time, telling them they would travel land and sea to make a single convert and then make him twice as much a "son of hell" as they are.
 
Maybe if Jesus called himself a prophet instead of the son of God and was accepted as such by the Jews from that time, and also encouraged Jews to convert non-Jews... That would border with your suggested POD. Don't know if it is plausible at all, but we could even see the Roman Empire converting to Judaism at some point, just like it became Christian IOTL.

In any case, I think a stronger, larger Judaism would look very different from OTL Judaism, not only because of the number of followers, also because of its rites, practices, etc.
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
Maybe if Jesus called himself a prophet instead of the son of God and was accepted as such by the Jews from that time, and also encouraged Jews to convert non-Jews...

Don't know if it is plausible at all, but we could even see the Roman Empire converting to Judaism at some point, just like it became Christian IOTL.

In any case, I think a stronger, larger Judaism would look very different from OTL Judaism, not only because of the number of followers, also because of its rites, practices, etc.

Christianity was Jewish the first century it existed, it was quite distinct from traditional Judaism, but so was the Pharisee tradition which became modern judaism. But while it was Paulus whom really began to preach for the Pagans, it more or less build into Christiniaty that it would spread out. Most of Jesus preachings happen in Samaria and Galilæa, he preach as much for Samaritans as he did for Jews. So from the start he preached primary to the Jewish dispora in cosmopolitian areas and semi-Jews like the Sarmaritans. From there the jump to Pagans wasn't really that great. The Pharisees mostly focused on the more monocultural Judæa, and was much more insular than Christianity.
 
Christianity was Jewish the first century it existed, it was quite distinct from traditional Judaism, but so was the Pharisee tradition which became modern judaism. But while it was Paulus whom really began to preach for the Pagans, it more or less build into Christiniaty that it would spread out. Most of Jesus preachings happen in Samaria and Galilæa, he preach as much for Samaritans as he did for Jews. So from the start he preached primary to the Jewish dispora in cosmopolitian areas and semi-Jews like the Sarmaritans. From there the jump to Pagans wasn't really that great. The Pharisees mostly focused on the more monocultural Judæa, and was much more insular than Christianity.

But the whole point of Christianity is that Jesus was the son of God. So, while Jesus intended to be accepted as the Messiah instead of creating a spin-off religion, what happened is that a whole new religion was founded. Christianity may have been Jewish in its beginnings, but the whole Jesus-centric thing makes it absolutely heretical for mainstream Judaism.

So, what I'm saying is that if Jesus wanted to reform Judaism and intended to be accepted as a prophet instead of as the Messiah, preaching the conversion of the Gentiles in order to enlarge the People of God or something, maybe Judaism would have been stronger. Of course Christianity would have been butterflied away, because ITTL Jesus would be considered at the same level of the old major prophets, like Daniel, Isaiah or Ezekiel.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
But the whole point of Christianity is that Jesus was the son of God. So, while Jesus intended to be accepted as the Messiah instead of creating a spin-off religion, what happened is that a whole new religion was founded. Christianity may have been Jewish in its beginnings, but the whole Jesus-centric thing makes it absolutely heretical for mainstream Judaism.

So, what I'm saying is that if Jesus wanted to reform Judaism and intended to be accepted as a prophet instead of as the Messiah, preaching the conversion of the Gentiles in order to enlarge the People of God or something, maybe Judaism would have been stronger. Of course Christianity would have been butterflied away, because ITTL Jesus would be considered at the same level of the old major prophets, like Daniel, Isaiah or Ezekiel.

No Jesus ft quite well into Judaism at the time, yes Christianity saw him as Messiah, but that was not foreign import, Jews had waited for Messiah for centuries and he wasn't the only Messiah running around at the time. It's important to know that Judaism was much more diverse at the time and with a lot more room for conflicting view. What changed was the Jewish rebellions against Rome, which only left a few sects alive and Christians and the Pharisees was the two major ones, and neither fthought the world was big enough to both of them. So Christians which was more popular in the dispora, Samaria and had lot of Pagan converts, lost the battle for being the real Judaism, and the Pharisee won. Which mean suddenly the Christians wasn't excepted from sacrifising to the Emperor like the Pharisees was, and several centuries made Christians quite bitter toward the Pharisees.
 
Eeeh, well it's after your preferred PoD, but I do have a sleeping TL on the Khazars, who were Jewish Turks living in the Ukraine area, being a massive, decentralized state.

The Khazars are an option, but from what I gathered the Khazars were only nominally 'Jews', with most of the population being Pagans or Jewish refugees from Europe. Their Judicial system also employed an equal number of judges for every religion, 2 Jews, 2 Christians and 2 Muslims (and one Pagan too) so that implied how 'fiercly' Jewish they actually were.

And, it would take a Khazaria the size of the Christianized Roman Empire or the Caliphate to get the influence of Judaism across. and Khazaria was unable to do to so at the time.
 
Well, in Israel today, there is in these days a fight between the non-religious and the religious right-winged parties about the possible milliatry conversion (the religious party is against it, the no-religious one supports it). Furthermore, the conversion tests are pretty hard, and there is a fight between the orthodox the the reformers about its difficulty. An open religion may be bigger, but much more vulnerable. What kept Judaism together in its hard times is the common history of everyone.
So, if you want a stronger Judaism, you must both make it more open and make its history better so it won't collapse.
 

Keenir

Banned
The Khazars are an option, but from what I gathered the Khazars were only nominally 'Jews', with most of the population being Pagans or Jewish refugees from Europe. Their Judicial system also employed an equal number of judges for every religion, 2 Jews, 2 Christians and 2 Muslims (and one Pagan too) so that implied how 'fiercly' Jewish they actually were.

wait, so their capacity for tolerance means they aren't powerful?

as a counter-example, let me cite The Mongol Empire of Temujin.


And, it would take a Khazaria the size of the Christianized Roman Empire or the Caliphate to get the influence of Judaism across. and Khazaria was unable to do to so at the time.

across to where?
 

Hendryk

Banned
The problem are when we adapt Judaism to religion, which people want to convert to (at least in large quantities), suddenly it isn't Judaism any longer. Christianity and Islam are just as related to the old Judaic religion as modern Judaism are, but the latter are seen as the evolution of old Judaism rather than just a branch among many. This is becase the members are descendants of the orginal members, while in Islam and Christinity they are converts.
What Valdemar said. Christianity and Islam are as close to a proselyte version of Judaism as you're going to get. Almost two-thirds of the world believe in Yahweh, how much stronger a Jewish religion could you aim for?
 
wait, so their capacity for tolerance means they aren't powerful?

as a counter-example, let me cite The Mongol Empire of Temujin.

Of course they can be powerful without being harsh religiously, but the question was whether Khazaria could possibly become as powerful and large as the Roman Empire or the various Caliphates and convert the native populations to Judaism, so that when it destabilizes and breaks apart you would have a situation kind of like when Europe split apart into various Christian kingdoms after the fall of the Roman Empire.

across to where?

To...well, as far as possible. Converting the population into Judaism and influencing other nations to convert.
 
I was under the impression Jewish theology in its more modern form taught that Gentiles were only required to obey the Seven Noahide Laws and only Jews were subjected to all 613 (ish) from the Law of Moses. They "bore the burden of holiness" on behalf of mankind.

Perhaps Gentiles aren't converted to Judaism fully but become "God-fearers" (Gentile believers in the Jewish God, referenced in the New Testament; IIRC most of them became Christians in OTL). Only the most fervent God-fearers actually convert full-blown to Judaism, complete with circumcision.
 

Zioneer

Banned
I was under the impression Jewish theology in its more modern form taught that Gentiles were only required to obey the Seven Noahide Laws and only Jews were subjected to all 613 (ish) from the Law of Moses. They "bore the burden of holiness" on behalf of mankind.

Perhaps Gentiles aren't converted to Judaism fully but become "God-fearers" (Gentile believers in the Jewish God, referenced in the New Testament; IIRC most of them became Christians in OTL). Only the most fervent God-fearers actually convert full-blown to Judaism, complete with circumcision.

Again, that's where I was going with my Khazar TL. Those vassalized by the Khazars are forced to follow the Noahide Laws, and Jews are given better treatment, which makes entire populations slowly turn fully Jewish, especially the merchants.
 
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