A Stronger British PM @ Munich 1938.

It was the first time Neville Chamberlain had ever been in a plane! And Hitler laughed afterwards ' He seemed like such a nice old man, I felt I had to give him my autograph '. What if a stronger Prime meinister than Chamberlain had met Hitler in Munich in '38?
 
Chamberlain knew that because of years of under-spending on defence, for which he himself (having been Chancellor of the Exchequer before rising to PM) was partly responsible, we couldn't have fought Hitler effectively in '38. He did the best that he could there, to stave off WW2 for a while so that Britain's rearmament progamme would be further ahead when war finally did become effectively unavoidable.

e.g.
Total number of Spitfires and Hurricanes, combined, possessed by the RAF at the time of Munich? c.50
Total number of Spitfires and Hurricanes, combined, possessed by the RAF when Chamberlain gave Hitler an ultimatum over Poland? c.500.
 
It was the first time Neville Chamberlain had ever been in a plane! And Hitler laughed afterwards ' He seemed like such a nice old man, I felt I had to give him my autograph '. What if a stronger Prime meinister than Chamberlain had met Hitler in Munich in '38?

Stronger at what? Having a war in 1938 instead of 1939?

Chamberlain was told by his defence chiefs that Britain was not ready for war. At most Britain could deploy 2 divisions. The Germans knew that. The RAF still had obsolete biplanes as the backbone of it's airforce.

France was in serious political and economic trouble. The only alternative was an alliance with the USSR which the Czechs didn't want.

Perhaps the German military would have launched a coup against Hitler but Chamberlain wouldn't have known that. Also it is doubtful that the German army would have went through it.

Finally Chamberlain's policy had the support of most of the British people and most of Parliament.
 
Chamberlain knew that because of years of under-spending on defence, for which he himself (having been Chancellor of the Exchequer before rising to PM) was partly responsible, we couldn't have fought Hitler effectively in '38. He did the best that he could there, to stave off WW2 for a while so that Britain's rearmament progamme would be further ahead when war finally did become effectively unavoidable.

e.g.
Total number of Spitfires and Hurricanes, combined, possessed by the RAF at the time of Munich? c.50
Total number of Spitfires and Hurricanes, combined, possessed by the RAF when Chamberlain gave Hitler an ultimatum over Poland? c.500.

No he didnt.
He basically gave up CZ because he believed that Hitler (such a nice man..:) would then settle down and play nice.

He himself, when asked if he bought time, said 'No, I have brought back peace'.
 

ccdsah

Donor
It was the first time Neville Chamberlain had ever been in a plane! And Hitler laughed afterwards ' He seemed like such a nice old man, I felt I had to give him my autograph '. What if a stronger Prime meinister than Chamberlain had met Hitler in Munich in '38?

War. Hitler wanted war. Or he might be ovethrown by elements of Abwehr and Wehrmacht that didn't want war in 1938
 

Eurofed

Banned
What if a stronger Prime meinister than Chamberlain had met Hitler in Munich in '38?

The prepared military coup by the Wehrmacht officers that dreaded a war in 1938 goes into effect when Hitler gives the order to attack, and the Nazi regime is overthrown. Post-Nazi Germany later negotiates for internationally-supervised plebiscites that award it the Sudetenland and Danzig. WWII as we know it and its horrors never happen.
 

ccdsah

Donor
Stronger at what? Having a war in 1938 instead of 1939?

Chamberlain was told by his defence chiefs that Britain was not ready for war. At most Britain could deploy 2 divisions. The Germans knew that. The RAF still had obsolete biplanes as the backbone of it's airforce.

France was in serious political and economic trouble. The only alternative was an alliance with the USSR which the Czechs didn't want.

Perhaps the German military would have launched a coup against Hitler but Chamberlain wouldn't have known that. Also it is doubtful that the German army would have went through it.

Finally Chamberlain's policy had the support of most of the British people and most of Parliament.

The Nazis would have had a harder time against Czehs, Poland, Frnace and UK in 1938. Heck, Soviet Union might give the "Allies" a hand too
 
1. Chamberlain thought he had gained peace, because he (like most of Europe at that time) couldn't believe anyone would want war after what had happened in the previous conflict. Daladier on the other hand believed war to be inevitable. However given the way the French behaved after war was declared in 1939 it's difficult to believe they'd have done anything in 1938.

2. The Czechs were happy to fight, and given their defensive positions along the German border and the half re-armed state of the German military they may well have managed to win on their own. Typical of the time everyone was nervous of going to war. The Czechs wouldn't fight without French support, and the French wouldn't fight without British (or Russian) support.

3. The USSR was still seen as the big enemy at the time and so the Soviets were completely excluded from Munich (as of course were the Czechs). Include them in the talks and you might well get either Hitler backing down, or all three powers going to war with Germany in autumn 1938 when he occupied Prague.

The over riding facts here are a) Hitler wanted war, at any cost. He needed war to further his ambitions. If Britain and France had given him an ultimatum "Leave Czechoslovakia alone or we will go to war with you" I suspect he would have still attacked, and b) Germany had gotten the jump on the western democracies in terms of rearming and so Britain and France were concious that they were weaker militarily and so sought to avoid a conflict, and c) Chamberlain was a pacifist, the chances of him declaring war when he could negotiate peace were slim to none.
 
Poland was helping Hitler in 1938. They took a slice of Czechoslovakia too.

It didn’t really help, just waited to see what it could grab. I suppose that if France/Britain did declare war and actually attack and Hitler managed not to get overthrown quickly, Poland would quite possibly have ended up declaring war on Germany.

No, that happened in March 1939!

In 1938 Poland took west Teschen. IIRC in March 1939 it annexed only some border passes in the Carpathians, thus alienating Slovakia.
 

ccdsah

Donor
It didn’t really help, just waited to see what it could grab. I suppose that if France/Britain did declare war and actually attack and Hitler managed not to get overthrown quickly, Poland would quite possibly have ended up declaring war on Germany.



In 1938 Poland took west Teschen. IIRC in March 1939 it annexed only some border passes in the Carpathians, thus alienating Slovakia.

Thanks, I didn't know that. So Poland participated in partition of Czechoslovakia even as early as 1938. Maybe UK and France should have let Hitler have his way with Poland and not declare war :mad:
 
Thanks, I didn't know that. So Poland participated in partition of Czechoslovakia even as early as 1938. Maybe UK and France should have let Hitler have his way with Poland and not declare war :mad:
Declaring war on Hitler in 1939 wasn't about right or wrong, it was about stopping the expansion of German power to a point where the British and French could no longer counter it.

Poland was never a threat to the established order, even if it had grabbed more or Czechoslovakia.
 
Chamberlain knew that because of years of under-spending on defence, for which he himself (having been Chancellor of the Exchequer before rising to PM) was partly responsible, we couldn't have fought Hitler effectively in '38. He did the best that he could there, to stave off WW2 for a while so that Britain's rearmament progamme would be further ahead when war finally did become effectively unavoidable.

e.g.
Total number of Spitfires and Hurricanes, combined, possessed by the RAF at the time of Munich? c.50
Total number of Spitfires and Hurricanes, combined, possessed by the RAF when Chamberlain gave Hitler an ultimatum over Poland? c.500.



If Britain wasn’t prepared for a European war, it does not mean that Germany was. The decision to use force against Austria and Czechoslovakia, even if it meant war with Great Britain and France caused the German foreign minister, Baron von Neurath to suffer several heart attacks, as stated by Williamson Murray “the strategic situation in 1938 was far more favourable to the Allies than it would prove the following year“.

The Wehrmacht suffered from deficiencies in training and leadership after the rapid expansion of the army since 1933. It consisted of 48 divisions with only 3 armoured (possessing only light tanks, many of them obsolete), 4 mechanised and 4 light divisions, the rest (5 of which being Austrian divisions, not yet fully integrated) being horse drawn WW1 stlye divisions with considerable shortages in artillery and other weapons. With the 37 divisions allocated to Fall Grun, and the 3 kept in East Prussia, that leaves only 8 infantry divisions to defend the Reichs borders. The only reserve that could be counted on were 14 Landwehr divisions, consisting mainly of overage and out of shape First Wolrd War Veterans, who were also under-equipped. The Wehrmacht was not prepared.

The Kreigsmarine lacked heavy cruisers or battle cruisers and only had 7 destroyers and 7 ocean going submarines, a campaign against commerce was out of the question. The Kreigsmarine was not prepared.

The Luftwaffe was exchanging its first generation fighters for more modern models, but by the fall of 1938. However, there were only 500 Bf 109's in front line units, with under-experienced pilots suffering from high accident rates and the introduction of the new aricraft creating complex supply and maintenenance problems such as a lack of reserve engines and pilots. The Luftwaffe was not prepared

Were we unprepared for war in the fall of 1938? Yes. Was Germany even less prepared? Certainly.

Was handing over a massive amount of industry and modern equipment to Hitler whilst neutralising a significant ally to avoid war with this much weaker Germany? You have to be kidding...
 
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And is "sronger" the right word?

Chamberlain was in some ways a very strong PM, notably in his control of the Party. Had Hitler not occupied Prague when he did, Churchill might have been deselected by his constituency party.

Chamberlain may have miscalculated, but there was nothing particularly weak about him.
 
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