A State of Cornhuskers and Riflemen: WI the Hoosier State implemented the Hythe Method before (or during) the American Civil War?

I know that the American Civil War is probably quite a bit overdone on this site but hopefully this is a unique premise and twist as I've been pondering about making a timeline out of this down the road.

Anyway, I figured that while the idea is fresh, why not have a discussion about feasibility and possible ramifications?


Indiana during the American Civil War was a majorly rural 'western' state that was the first 'western' state to mobilize for the Civil War, ranked second among the Union States in the percentage of men of military age who served, its railroad hubs and access to the Ohio River was key to the Union war effort, and of course, provided crops since the majority of the south, well, seceded.

Ambrose Burnside was a Hoosier by birth and grew up in Indiana before eventually becoming the first President of the American National Rifle Association Post-War and the NRA was formed due to lackluster marksmanship training of Union troops during the war.

But what-if there was at least some effort to improve marksmanship training i.e adoption of the Hythe Method? What if at least one of the most Pro-Union states during the American Civil War decided to implement a similar program when war seemed all but inevitable?

What if Oliver P. Morton stumbled upon a copy of the Hythe Manual say, either sometime in 1858 or after being inaugurated Governor in early 1861, that was wrap around a newspaper article about the Whitworth Rifle?

And he pushed for and pulled strings to get the training implemented for the Indiana Legion and Volunteers?

Imagine the 19th Indiana Volunteer Regiment of the Iron Brigade at Gettysburg being detached to act as Sharpshooters against Henry Heth's men, in order to rain down fire against the Confederates who already endured the onslaught of Buford's Cavalry's breechloaders?

Imagine Joseph Whitworth being encouraged to set up a factory in Indianapolis manufacturing Whitworth Rifles (though of course even though it's a bit outlandish, I'm keeping my options open). Or Hiram Berdan being hired as an adviser?

As a reenactor who does a Billy Yank infantry impression and being a ACW buff, hopefully this is not ASB. I'm aware that there was a rifle shortage during the early years of the war, the engagement ranges being only less than 300 yards, even less, due to outdated Napoleonic tactics and I know that the Whitworth was expensive as hell but who knows, maybe some of the Confederate states will realize that Indiana is deadly serious on not allowing good old Southern boys getting the best of them.

One potential ramification I can think of is that after the war, Hoosiers might have a headstart in hunting herds of Buffalos with Buffalo Rifles out West!

Let's make the boyhood home of Honest Abe Lincoln feared for crackshooting even up to the Korean War a century later but that might be too ambitious ;)

Oh and due to being within the German Belt: Indiana über alles! :D
 
Since I am not familiar with the Hythe Method, I am going to assume from context that it increases the accuracy of someone trained with it. Now this is all well and good in an environment with clean sight lines and plenty of time to aim and fire, but during large scale Civil War battles, both of those were nigh on non-existent. While butterfly effect is very powerful in alternate history and anything is possible, I can foresee no major impact in history minus the killing of more Johnny Rebs, unless of course they happen to kill the right Johnny Reb to affect something. Nevertheless, this is an interesting concept, and if enacted I can see Indiana's new state nickname: The Sharpshooter State.

(Also on a complete unrelated note, thanks for following me!)
 
Hypothetically, having the Indianans trained in the Hythe School of Musketry would have helped them in line combat and skirmishing. Being actually capable of hitting a target 500 yards away would allow these Indianan regiments to disorder advancing Confederates with sharp long-range fire, harass artillery gunners and improve their performance in line combat. That said, I would note that their usefulness has its limits:
1. There’s the matter of tactical deployment. Will brigade commanders actually allow them to keep firing at a distance? Most officers preferred close-range fire to allow their enemies to enter a killing zone. Even so, I suppose that the better knowledge of ranges allows them to fire on the rebels more accurately and help the Union win more easily.
2. Didn’t the Union Western Armies dominate the skirmish lines? Earl J. Hess insists that the greater experience and larger pool of ammunition allowed the Union armies in the Western Theater, which most Indianan volunteers were a part of, to dominate the Confederates in sharpshooting. Adding the Hythe school of musketry perhaps improves their accuracy, but it doesn’t really change things too much, at least in the skirmish war for Atlanta.
What if Oliver P. Morton stumbled upon a copy of the Hythe Manual say, either sometime in 1858 or after being inaugurated Governor in early 1861, that was wrap around a newspaper article about the Whitworth Rifle?
I’m quite skeptical that this can be achieved until late 1863 or early 1864 and I have strong doubts over the feasibility of a Whitworth factory in Indiana. The first issue is training. Who trains the volunteers this method? The regular army was very, very lax on marksmanship training so who trains these men? Second, the shortage of firearms in the Union means that most Indianan regiments won’t have rifles until 1862/3.
Imagine the 19th Indiana Volunteer Regiment of the Iron Brigade at Gettysburg being detached to act as Sharpshooters against Henry Heth's men, in order to rain down fire against the Confederates who already endured the onslaught of Buford's Cavalry's breechloaders?
Very little I would imagine. The early morning engagement between Buford and Heth was mostly a skirmish. Nothing really changes the fact that Barlow’s Division of XI Corps was going to foolishly overextend itself and fail to keep a proper watch out for rebels or the fact that I Corps is badly outnumbered.
 
Since I am not familiar with the Hythe Method, I am going to assume from context that it increases the accuracy of someone trained with it. Now this is all well and good in an environment with clean sight lines and plenty of time to aim and fire, but during large scale Civil War battles, both of those were nigh on non-existent. While butterfly effect is very powerful in alternate history and anything is possible, I can foresee no major impact in history minus the killing of more Johnny Rebs, unless of course they happen to kill the right Johnny Reb to affect something. Nevertheless, this is an interesting concept, and if enacted I can see Indiana's new state nickname: The Sharpshooter State.

(Also on a complete unrelated note, thanks for following me!)

I should've posted these two links in the original post for clarification purposes and I take full responsibility here for not explaining it but you're right on the money. Basically the Hythe Method taught British troops how to estimate range and take advantage of using the 1853 Enfield as a rifle.



Mostly in the Eastern Theater with the terrain, especially with the Wilderness but on some western battlefields such as Perryville, there's some opportunity of using this method if the commanders took advantage of it.

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Hypothetically, having the Indianans trained in the Hythe School of Musketry would have helped them in line combat and skirmishing. Being actually capable of hitting a target 500 yards away would allow these Indianan regiments to disorder advancing Confederates with sharp long-range fire, harass artillery gunners and improve their performance in line combat. That said, I would note that their usefulness has its limits:
1. There’s the matter of tactical deployment. Will brigade commanders actually allow them to keep firing at a distance? Most officers preferred close-range fire to allow their enemies to enter a killing zone. Even so, I suppose that the better knowledge of ranges allows them to fire on the rebels more accurately and help the Union win more easily.
2. Didn’t the Union Western Armies dominate the skirmish lines? Earl J. Hess insists that the greater experience and larger pool of ammunition allowed the Union armies in the Western Theater, which most Indianan volunteers were a part of, to dominate the Confederates in sharpshooting. Adding the Hythe school of musketry perhaps improves their accuracy, but it doesn’t really change things too much, at least in the skirmish war for Atlanta.

I’m quite skeptical that this can be achieved until late 1863 or early 1864 and I have strong doubts over the feasibility of a Whitworth factory in Indiana. The first issue is training. Who trains the volunteers this method? The regular army was very, very lax on marksmanship training so who trains these men? Second, the shortage of firearms in the Union means that most Indianan regiments won’t have rifles until 1862/3.

Very little I would imagine. The early morning engagement between Buford and Heth was mostly a skirmish. Nothing really changes the fact that Barlow’s Division of XI Corps was going to foolishly overextend itself and fail to keep a proper watch out for rebels or the fact that I Corps is badly outnumbered.

1.) I would say it depends on the brigade commander. Most of the leaders, as you're probably aware, were stuck in the Napoleonic tactical mindset while the technology has progressed since Waterloo but one notable exception for thinking out of the box was August Willich and I can easily see him using it.


2.) Yes but as a example, Patrick Cleburne of the Confederacy implemented the Hythe Method with some success


Indiana was a pioneer state until circa 1840s, which means there should be experienced backwoodsmen available and there's men such as Hiram Berdan who were national celebrities. Hiring him as a adviser after the state government enacted a codified state militia act to encourage it is a possibility. And then there's still the fact that some farming communities had shootoffs.


But I completely understand if you think that 1863 or 1864 is more probable and even I admitted that there was a weapon shortage so maybe after Morgan's Raid as a reform measure?


 
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Maybe not Hythe method, but what about outfitting the skrimishers from General Willich's Horn Brigade with repeaters in 1863 (spencer repeater, or the colt new model revolving rifle if the flaws don't put you off). When it comes to musket fire doctrine, Willich invented a tactic called advance firing (ranks of four instead of two, one rank fires, the rear rank moves up to shoot after said volley) which he employed at the battle of Liberty Gap, so I could see him giving the Hythe method an honest appraisal.
 
Maybe not Hythe method, but what about outfitting the skrimishers from General Willich's Horn Brigade with repeaters in 1863 (spencer repeater, or the colt new model revolving rifle if the flaws don't put you off). When it comes to musket fire doctrine, Willich invented a tactic called advance firing (ranks of four instead of two, one rank fires, the rear rank moves up to shoot after said volley) which he employed at the battle of Liberty Gap, so I could see him giving the Hythe method an honest appraisal.

I'm going to note that down and will definately be keeping it in mind but there's no limitations in possibly combining it by outfitting the men with Sharps as different situations could require different methods.

Besides, there's Wilder's Lightning Brigade:p

Regardless, Willich is arguably one of the most forward thinking Brigade commanders during the war especially with his ideas with wagons.
 
Wilder's LB is why I suggested the New Model Colt as an alternative, a risky weapon but when it works, oh boy does it work ;). General Willich, fresh off of his stay in a P.O.W. camp would probably salivate at the damage that skrimishers with six shots at the ready could do with proper drill and training. I agree fully about August Willich and would argue he really came into his own during the war at the Battle of Shiloh when rallied his regiment by having the regimental band play La Marseillaise, allowing him to get them back in line and ready to counter attack.
 
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21st Ohio Volunteer Infantry, anyone?

Still, from time to time I kinda find it ironic that an ardent and open Communist, while often overlooked, was one of the most innovative officers in United States military history, not to mention that he led a charge up Missionary Ridge within a few hundred yards of Douglas MacArthur's father!:hushedface:
 
First, thank you for following me, second, didn't Willich challenge Karl Marx to a duel or something based on their differences regarding the nascent philosophy of Communism? Everything I read about Willich and Marx all but states they were rivals for leadership and influence before Willich migrated to the United States.
 
First, thank you for following me, second, didn't Willich challenge Karl Marx to a duel or something based on their differences regarding the nascent philosophy of Communism? Everything I read about Willich and Marx all but states they were rivals for leadership and influence before Willich migrated to the United States.

I've read somewhat about it and who knows what would've occurred if the duel transpired!
 
True, if Marx had the stones to face Willich instead of sending a stand in IRL, ah well. Anyway, if you want to establish the scenario, which regiment have you decided on, perhaps the 32nd, commanded by Willich, von Tebra, and Edelmeyer at one point or another.
 
True, if Marx had the stones to face Willich instead of sending a stand in IRL, ah well. Anyway, if you want to establish the scenario, which regiment have you decided on, perhaps the 32nd, commanded by Willich, von Tebra, and Edelmeyer at one point or another.


Well, I wasn't planning on doing a particular unit as I was going to use different perspectives/theaters and one of the potential butterflies I was considering for the future timeline was for a Hoosier of the 19th to nail a certain Johnny Reb before he picked off John Reynolds at West McPherson Ridge. As a sidenote apparently there's still a ongoing debate about the exact location where Reynolds was killed but it's agreed that he was in front of the Iron Brigade.

But I'm still open-minded on anything here.
 
In Craig Symonds's book Stonewall of the West, he mentioned Cleburne's division having Woolworth rifles issued to his best skirmishers and sharpshooters, there's a ready made rivalry, just in time for Chickamauga.
 
I won't be neglecting the First German Regiment but I think there should be multiple perspectives, especially with other Western units due to the Eastern theater being overdone yet I'll be attempting to balance all theaters.:cool:
 
Nice, good thing you haven't mentioned Gen. John B. Turchin getting that tech or training, if he managed to obtain either one, there will be no survivors. :p
 
Nice, good thing you haven't mentioned Gen. John B. Turchin getting that tech or training, if he managed to obtain either one, there will be no survivors. :p

He was one mad, eccentric Russian:p

Yet he was on the recieving end during the Crimean War and it's possible he might get ideas:evilsmile:


Edit to add:
Wait, I just remembered something.

Indiana had a decent percentage of Swiss immigrants just before the war, especially in the northern part of the state!

So it's not unreasonable to have a decent amount of Swiss instructors lending their expertise alongside American backwoodsmen and German rifle club members
 
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But what-if there was at least some effort to improve marksmanship training i.e adoption of the Hythe Method? What if at least one of the most Pro-Union states during the American Civil War decided to implement a similar program when war seemed all but inevitable?

What if Oliver P. Morton stumbled upon a copy of the Hythe Manual say, either sometime in 1858 or after being inaugurated Governor in early 1861, that was wrap around a newspaper article about the Whitworth Rifle?
You'll need a much deeper POD than 1858 to achieve this. For a start, you'll need Indiana to actually form more than a nominal militia: 'in the month of April 1861... the Military Laws of the State were so defective that not a single regiment, or even a single company, could be furnished by your Excellency [O.P. Morton, Governor] to answer the requisition of the President of the United States for six regiments of infantry.' The state had not enrolled its militia (i.e. taken a register of those eligible for military service, not actually attempted to train them) for thirty years, and as such had not received its annual quota of weapons from the US government over that period, leading to suggestions in 1861 that there were only thirteen muskets in the state arsenal. Needless to say, a bigger militia requires a willingness to pay for it, and the fact that you can find the state assembly in May 1861, nearly a month after Fort Sumter, arguing over whether they should pay for a volunteer militia, bodes ill for this. Not only will rifles cost money - the Hythe system applies only to the longer ranges of the Minie rifle, and not the short-range smoothbore that armed the majority of troops in the early part of the war - but it's tough to ask people to train without pay.

You suggest that being able to staff the militia with those with experience handling weapons will be an advantage. Paradoxically, this is actually a disadvantage when it comes to teaching them an entirely new and unfamiliar method of shooting. In the first place they'll be resistant to changing the way that they have done things already; in the second, they'll tend to fall back into old habits when they return from camp and continue to shoot in their own time. Similarly Swiss immigrants might be trained, but not in the Hythe methods - and old habits die similarly hard.

Bottom line is that this may be possible, but it'll need a lot of considerable changes, and Indiana may not be the best state to start with.
 
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SwampTiger

Banned
I had considered similar ideas after several Civil War and Crimean War threads. One such idea was a greater development of the skirmish line advocated by John Watts de Peyster, cousin of Phil Kearney, expansion of skirmish tactics found in Hardee's translation of a French tactical manual, and a post Mexican War attempt by Deep South states to found an armoury, and rationalize and consolidate southern railroads.

The Hythe System of rifle training in this time period would be hampered by lack of sufficient powder for combat and lack of modern rifles. Should any state militia be allowed sufficient powder and modern rifles for such training in the period from 1848 to say 1858, it would have dominated early ACW battlefields.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Adding to cerebropetrologist's statement. The British Army started developing the Hythe System in June 1853. It had only begun training a small School of Instructors in 1855. Very few NCO's with this training were sent to the Crimea.
 
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