A Stalwart for the Stalwarts

Just saw and caught up -- Garfield vetoing the Chinese Exclusion Act would be a game changer -- I also noticed there was a debate in Congress TTL (circa 1882) on whether to defund Federal Marshals, which I'm taking it doesn't happen?

EDIT ADD: Related question -- is the Civil Rights Act of 1875 still found unconstitutional?

CONSOLIDATE: Just realized something else -- Mark Twain was writing Adventures of Huck Finn around this time (bulk 1880-83), so one related butterfly could be that the novel turns out differently.
 
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This is all very interesting here.

Here's a question for you: is there any difference in what happened to Hawaii? Is it still annexed as a US territory?
 
Just saw and caught up -- Garfield vetoing the Chinese Exclusion Act would be a game changer -- I also noticed there was a debate in Congress TTL (circa 1882) on whether to defund Federal Marshals, which I'm taking it doesn't happen?

EDIT ADD: Related question -- is the Civil Rights Act of 1875 still found unconstitutional?
The Federal Marshal defunding was narrowly defeated ITTL, meaning that the opposition most likely will try again sometime. However, the Federal Marshal's won't be getting much of a raise either, so they're still hampered to a degree.

As to your second question, yes, most of it was found unconstitutional, though a few parts that were considered to be within constitutional authority were latter rewritten in the 1887 Civil Rights Act.

This is all very interesting here.

Here's a question for you: is there any difference in what happened to Hawaii? Is it still annexed as a US territory?
While WD and I have yet to confer on this, history may be either a bit sooner or later in terms of what happens to Hawaii, but given the historical need for a place like Hawaii to the US for its burgeoning navy, it'll most likely have someone call for annexation at some point.


Just realized something else -- Mark Twain was writing Adventures of Huck Finn around this time (bulk 1880-83), so one related butterfly could be that the novel turns out differently.
Possibly. Depends on how things go for him, and if he decides to add his interesting brand of political commentary to the book in some deeper form.

Certainly any of his books after this are going to comment on the changes at hand.
 
I just read a great book about the Garfield Assasination. Destiny of the Republic: A Tale of Madness, Medicine and the murder of a president by Candice Millard.

Didn't they have libel laws back then so Arthur could sue the Washington Post.
Libel laws were in existence, but the US system often had/has difference between states as to what constitutes libel.

Also, since I'm not sure of the veracity of Wikipedia, their example isn't much to base an answer off of. But here's what they say

"Defamation law in the United States is much less plaintiff-friendly than its counterparts in European and the Commonwealth countries. In the United States, a comprehensive discussion of what is and is not libel or slander is difficult, because the definition differs between different states, and under federal law. Some states codify what constitutes slander and libel together into the same set of laws. Criminal libel is rare or nonexistent, depending on the state. Defenses to libel that can result in dismissal before trial include the statement being one of opinion rather than fact or being "fair comment and criticism". Truth is always a defense."
 
Can I put in a good word for this guy having a role? Awesome doesn't even begin to describe him.
Sure. WD and I are always looking forward to reader suggestions. Given we've got so much going on in RL that our research time is somewhat limited, suggestions are always welcome.


And to let folks know in a little hint, our next update will be on a future George I.
 
Update Eight, Part 1
A Rising Tsar



bgdLR.jpg

 
I would think that world wide sympathy with the Romanovs over the death of Nicholas would be short lived with the ongoing brutality against the Revolutionaries. Also, the repeal of reforms and crackdowns against protesters would radicalize the Russian populace just as the Bloody Sunday massacre radicalized the Russian people otl and would lead to a stronger revolutionary movement earlier.
 
I would think that world wide sympathy with the Romanovs over the death of Nicholas would be short lived with the ongoing brutality against the Revolutionaries. Also, the repeal of reforms and crackdowns against protesters would radicalize the Russian populace just as the Bloody Sunday massacre radicalized the Russian people otl and would lead to a stronger revolutionary movement earlier.

I don't think global sympathy would go away after the Tsar's response, the radicals were *just* communists, after all, and such a response would have been par for the course in just about any country in 1882. Besides, I doubt Alexander would have cared much either way.

I do, however, agree that the response would have radicalized the public earlier, but the sheer enormity of the crackdowns would have driven the elements deeper underground. There were many assassination attempts on Alexander and George. There was even a October Revolution analog in 1915, but due to the negotiations by George in 1903, the numbers were significantly lower.
 
My favorite part of this TL is the presentation, especially since I am a Wikipedia addict :p.

I'm interested in learning more about how Russia and Japan avoided coming to blows prior to the Great War and how this affected Japanese warmongering over the next several decades. I don't require a blow-by-blow description of the Great War, but am of course anxious to learn more about how that works out and finding out just what a "moderate" treaty ending the war means!

All in all, you have probably just gotten a lot of viewers re-hooked on this TL and hopefully the next update isn't too far away!
 
I don't think global sympathy would go away after the Tsar's response, the radicals were *just* communists, after all, and such a response would have been par for the course in just about any country in 1882. Besides, I doubt Alexander would have cared much either way.

I do, however, agree that the response would have radicalized the public earlier, but the sheer enormity of the crackdowns would have driven the elements deeper underground. There were many assassination attempts on Alexander and George. There was even a October Revolution analog in 1915, but due to the negotiations by George in 1903, the numbers were significantly lower.


The revolutionaries weren't identified with Communism by that time. Also, their was plenty sympathy for the revolutionaries in the West at least by the time of the 1905 Russian Revolution. Mark Twain was a big supporter of that revolution. He said "If such a government cannot be overthrown otherwise then by dynamite, then thank god for dynamite." http://www.ditext.com/moorehead/4.html
 
Thank you to all the readers for the comments on the wikipedia article. Those things are annoying to format, and I often have to copy paste them into a word doc, lest a weeks worth of reformatting gets lost. It might be awhile before that particular format returns, but I've got some other ideas cooking.


Now, to the matter of the revolutionaries. Sympathy is intially for the crown, if only because a 14 year old boy and a mother/wife were just gunned down. Even if they could be considered by some to be "enemies of the people", there will be those abroad that feel women and children shouldn't be made targets as well. Once word gets out about mass reprisals involving discrimmatory executions, public opinion at home and abroad are going to sour quickly. Yes, this is going to polarize many, but it may also force others to rethink things.

As for political leanings, like many revolutionary groups, the Russians have several political groups battling it out. Socialists, proto-communists, anarchists, monarchists, republicans, reactionaries, counter-revolutionaries, and secret police battling it out. Foreign groups from Germany and elsewhere are agitating and providing cash, offering havens to expatriate Russian revolutionaries, etc. Its just that Russia is a boiling pot of mixed groups set to a very high boil. And not all of these groups get along. Anarchists will backstab the socialists for a quick win, while the socialists may cozy up to the government and offer information if the government doesn't go after them quite as much.

Russia in the 20's and 30's is going to be a much different place then in our world. Its probably going to be the time when more reactionary and revolutionary elements are going to be at hand, but we haven't reached that point yet, so such will be a long time coming.
 
My favorite part of this TL is the presentation, especially since I am a Wikipedia addict :p.

I'm interested in learning more about how Russia and Japan avoided coming to blows prior to the Great War and how this affected Japanese warmongering over the next several decades. I don't require a blow-by-blow description of the Great War, but am of course anxious to learn more about how that works out and finding out just what a "moderate" treaty ending the war means!

All in all, you have probably just gotten a lot of viewers re-hooked on this TL and hopefully the next update isn't too far away!
Part of the reason is stated in the Foreign Policy section. In RL, Nicholas II was swayed by his generals and more influential politicians to renege on the promises Russia had made to Japan involving Manchuria, and overriding some others, including Minister Lamsdorf, who felt Korea was a bad idea.

To Quote Wikipedia "The main event of Lamsdorf's tenure in office was the Russo-Japanese War. He proposed to relinquish Russia's impractical ambitions in Korea in order to safeguard her interests in Manchuria. He viewed Pacific politics as something of a sideshow and was steadily sidelined by the jingoist hard-liners from the military. In terms of Far Eastern politics, Admiral Yevgeni Ivanovich Alekseyev exerted more influence on the Tsar, to whom he had direct access in his capacity of chairman of the semi-official Committee on Far Eastern Affairs. As a result of Alekseyev's activities, Russia reneged on her promise to evacuate Manchuria by 1902, and events continued their downward spiral to war, with Lamsdorf seemingly resigned to its inevitability."

In TTL, Lamsdorf has a close connection to the ear of Tsar George, and manages to convince him that enraging the Japanese is a bad idea. However relations are still frosty between the two powers, and they basically fight a sort of proto-Spanish Civil War in China and Mongolia, with both sides covertly sending aid, men, and money to the various warlords they represent (China in this world suffers quite a bit more following the bloodier Boxer Rebellion...)

As for the First Great War? Time will tell.

Our next two updates will be more like traditional ones in the past (mixture of period comics, photos, and some textbook entries) following the roughly two or more weeks it took to write the wiki article.
 
I appreciate the extra details you gave with regards to my questions. It's nice to see a Russia not getting screwed over in the 20th Century, though it looks like China goes through a rougher first half of the century, and that's saying something!
 
I appreciate the extra details you gave with regards to my questions. It's nice to see a Russia not getting screwed over in the 20th Century, though it looks like China goes through a rougher first half of the century, and that's saying something!
Russia will have problems. George I is not by any means a perfect ruler. But basically, the Tsardom by the start of the 21st century will be basically heading towards a monarchy like Britain, more of a national figurehead, with limited powers, and more of a symbol of the people. It will take time, energy, and unfortunately, blood to get there.

As for China, it will get better. It won't keep its monarchy, but it will end up being a lot different as well at centuries end. While WD and I have yet to discuss the wider effects as of yet, hopefully we can get a fairly modernized China without the horrors of twenty+ years of basically civil war and then the horrors of the Cultural Revolution.

I'm hoping to make Russia and China at least better, or at least different, to where they have been and where they are OTL. They won't be perfect. But hopefully, some positive effects will outweigh the bad effects that are going to happen in TTL, and hopefully some of their 20th century history can be lightened compared to ours (I have plans for a certain Georgian...)

Is there anything about the article that was especially interesting in your opinion? Style changes if that type of update is done in the future? As mainly update formatist (WD is more adept at writing than I am) and image finder, writing that sucker was time consuming, and mistakes can be made that I'd like to address before attempting a whole article again.
 
Well folks, hope people are still reading this.

Anyways, this current update is technically three parts long, since we're covering a lot of ground, to make up for a.) lost time updating this, and b.) tying together some of the things we've mentioned to new information.

Such is the case for example with TTL's WWI. In previous posts, we had a different name for WWI. As a little tidbit, here are just a few names of the Great War in TTL.

- The Great Conflagration
- The First Great War
- The Balkan War (mainly for Russia, Ottomans, Austrians, Serbians, Italians, and Greeks)
- The War Of The End of the World
- The Forty-Two Month War
- The War of Five Emperors
- The War of Serbian Aggression

Our next update will cover mainly Europe outside of Russia, and about the big changes since we last visited those halcyon shores....
 
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