A Spanish-Moroccan War in 2002

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I think that all palamentary groups condemned the occupation of Perejil, including ERC. That's the funny thing of Spaniards, they love to throw shit above each other but hate when a foreigner does that.

Nope, ERC did not condemn the occupation of Perejil; although I'm taking the data from Wikipedia.

Do you really think he would abandone the government when he has the opportunity to achieve his dream of "entering the History books"? Come on, this is the man that had no problem to insult the Spanish people and the rest of parliamentary groups when almost the whole country was demonstrating against him in 2003/04. I think that in this situation he would take Cid's clothes and present himself as the saviour of Spain against the nasty moor and the treacherous anti-Spanish alliance of peripheral nationalists and socialists (TM). Remember the recent visits of Zapatero and González to Morocco? I expect them to gain several minutes in Urdaci's TVE news. Another point to take in consideration is that the relation of Aznar with the King in his second term wasn't that good, so he could feel some sort of humiliated presenting his demission if it was necessary (and I'm pretty sure it isn't here).

I'm basing this on Aznar's statements in OTL that he would have resigned if the operation had become a bloodbath. After all, a 7.30 AM the only clear thing is that there are many dead in Perejil and that Ceuta and Melilla may be under attack in any moment: he probably knows that the public opinion will ask for his head if the plazas are taken by the moroccans. I can imagine him having crusader fantasies when it comes to invading Irak, but shitting his pants when things go wrong in spanish territory. :D
Are you Spanish too, Tocomocho? If so, stay tuned, you'll enjoy the setup of the emergency government.
 
For non-spanish readers:
ERC: Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya. A left-wing party, republican, that wants independence for Catalonia. Now in the tri-partite autonomous governement of Catalonia.
Urdaci: Television anchorman, openly favourable to Aznar governement (lost his job when Aznar's party lost elections)
Didn't know there where so many spaniards or at least people with a deep knowledge of Spain in this board. Nice.
Just saw a book from a spanish journalist, Ignacio Cemberero, that explores the possibility that Jaques Chirac was the real instigator of the moroocan assault on Perejil.
"That's the funny thing of Spaniards, they love to throw shit above each other but hate when a foreigner does that." Tocomocho, that could be said about any country, couldn't it?:)
About Ceuta and Melilla, they might be otuside NATO sphere, but they are military bases of a country that belongs to NATO, in the middle of an all-muslim area, so they are higly important for the alliance.
 
So when does Algeria decide to jump in on Spain's side?

It would be in Spain's interest to have Algeria on its side as it lessens the call that this is a Christian Crusade and Algerian peace keepers after the fighting stops would avoid the pitfalls their own troops would make.
 

Susano

Banned
Except it's not really terorism, and like Dr SG said, if morocco can convince the world Spain attacked first, neutrality can be secured from NATO. Britain is least likely to support them...given Spanish hypocrisy in regards to Gibraltar.
Thats just the point. The USA invoked the common defense clause of NATO for the firts time in history ove rwhat was not even a full fledged military action, even though that wouldve been what NATO was deigned for. A real military attack would be much more serious.

And regardless of who fired first, most of Europe will side at leats politically with Spain. They will see it as NATO abandoning a partner in need, and that sure does spell trouble for NATO.

The first news of the combats arrive to the Spanish troops in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan. Spanish NATO soldiers deployed in Aviano (Italy) and the Indian ocean will soon also learn about the fighting.
Oh! Arent there, IIRC, also moroccan blue-helmets in Bosnia? Lets imagine what could happen if some hot-blooded Spanish soldiers try to retaliate on their own :D
 
Oh! Arent there, IIRC, also moroccan blue-helmets in Bosnia? Lets imagine what could happen if some hot-blooded Spanish soldiers try to retaliate on their own :D

Actually, most moroccan blue helmets in Bosnia are deployed at Mostar, where the spaniards are. :D

"and now, last reports from the Bosnian Front in the spanish-morocco war"
 
Actually, most moroccan blue helmets in Bosnia are deployed at Mostar, where the spaniards are. :D

"and now, last reports from the Bosnian Front in the spanish-morocco war"

That would be interesting, if a Spanish-Moroccan war led to fighting between UN-deployed soldiers of both sides in every nation where they're both deployed.
 
That would be interesting, if a Spanish-Moroccan war led to fighting between UN-deployed soldiers of both sides in every nation where they're both deployed.

I can just imagine the political repercussions for that happening. On the one hand, letting them duke it out is dangerous, on the other hand prying them apart could lead to a three way or free for all meelee.
 
Could Aznar continue?

Just because he offers his resignation doesn't mean Juan Carlos has to accept it, especially during wartime. If he steps down, does the not go to Mariano Rajoy? Interestingly, OTL last year Aznar said “Muslims should apologize for occupying Spain for 800 years”.

The TL reminds me of a Turbot War idea I toyed with once, a Spanish-Canadian War in 1995.
 
I can just imagine the political repercussions for that happening. On the one hand, letting them duke it out is dangerous, on the other hand prying them apart could lead to a three way or free for all meelee.

I think the other nations in the peacekeeping forces might lock down Spanish and Moroccan troops to stop them from killing each other once word gets out.

Or at least they'll try. It depends on how quick-thinking the UN commander on the ground is, which given how ineptly some UN peacekeeping missions have been handled, suggests that there may be at least one full-scale battle.
 
Imperial claim on Gibraltar!!!! This is the funniest joke I've ever read in these boards!!!

Let me see. Spain claims the right to rule Gibraltar. It has not ruled there for several centuries. The population of Gibraltar have repeatedly made clear they don't want to be ruled by Spain. I don't think Spain has tried to claim that the population wants Spanish rule. As such their claim is based on a desire to rule people who don't want to be ruled by them. Which part of that do you have difficulty understanding?

Steve
 
Note to self; never ever write a TL about a theme I can write about in great detail :D :

A WAR ON THE STRAIT, DAY 1 JULY 17TH 2002, [CONTINUATION]

930 AM: A royal message to the nation is announced for broadcast at 10 AM in every spanish radio and TV. Newspapers are already busy working on special editions.

Submarines from the Mediterranean command take positions near the Al-hoceima naval base.

In the Principe de Asturias, the planes arrive safe and prepare for a 2nd raid on the Tangiers naval base. Admiral Barberá assumes that he has won the first battle mauling a good deal of the Moroccan airforce; but at a high cost with the loss of the Numancia

The frigate Numancia, badly wounded, withdraws towards Ceuta. In a few hours, video images of the burning frigate entering the port will become the first media icon of the war.

In Ceuta, Melilla, and the rest of the plazas, the Spanish legionaires and soldiers prepare for the now expectable Moroccan strike. Ceuta is easy to defend since the city center is on an island easy to supply by sea, but Melilla is on the bottom of a valley surrounded by Moroccan territory by 3 sides. The main issue, though, is that there are around 70000 civilians in each city and now it is too late to start an evacuation, so both Spanish and Moroccan commanders must be careful or the situation will become a massacre. Panic is already widespread among the population.

In Rabat, commanders congratulate themselves at the news of the damaging or sinking of the Numancia; but the news about the air battle are bleaker. Less than one third of the planes sent to attack the Spanish fleet has come back. The Moroccans know that what comes next is a massive Spanish attack on radar and AA positions, followed by a raid on the Moroccan airbases, hoping to destroy as much of the Force Aérienne Royale as they can. It is decided that a token force with the oldest planes will be left at the 3 bases of Kenitra, Meknes and Rabat, while the core of the airforce is withdrawn to other airbases or civilian airports far from the strait. This means giving the Spaniards air superiority over the strait, but at least the Moroccan airforce will be more or less intact to be able to conduct isolated strikes. While the Moroccans can now still reach the strait, the Spaniards, operating from bases in Spain, cannot reach the most faraway bases in central and southern morocco.

10 AM: King Juan Carlos addresses the nation. In a brief communication, he informs that Spain has been forced to attack Moroccan forces to prevent an invasion of Ceuta and Melilla, and that for all purposes a state of war exists between the kingdoms of Spain and Morocco. He also announces that the Aznar government has resigned due to the failure to take Perejil bloodlessly and that a new emergency government is being set up.

In Southern Spain, people stares at the skies as dozens of warplanes flying at low height head south…

A few minutes after King Juan Carlos, King Muhammad VI addressed the Moroccans. The Spanish agressors had tried to retake Laila [Moroccan name of perejil] and attacked the Moroccan mainland when the defenders had tried to repel them.

In Washington, the US government finds itself with a serious headache. On the first hand, Spain is a valuable ally which has contributed troops to Afghanistan and ships to Enduring Freedom. On the other hand, Morocco is one of the few reasonably secular Islamic states which supports the US, and it is more or less clear that it was actually the Spaniards who attacked first, albeit they claim it was just a preemptive strike. In two hours of conversations with the ambassadors, both sides refuse any agreement to a ceasefire and the American position becomes more and more uncomfortable as hours pass.


10.30: The second wave of Spanish warplanes starts bombing Moroccan radar and AA positions all over the strait region, arriving as south as Ksar-El Kebir, at less than 100 miles from Rabat.

The first land combat engagements outside of Perejil starts as Moroccan artillery starts bombing the Spanish outposts at Velez de Gomera and Alhucemas; supported by the small Moroccan flotilla anchored at Al-hoceima.

As the morning passes in both Spain and Morocco, the streets are mostly empty and none of the usual ambient of a summer morning is to be found. Most people is either at home or at a bar staring at the TV’s while the news of the combats spread slowly. In Morocco, people cheers when the CNN and al-Yazira show the first images of the Numancia burning next to Ceuta, while Spaniards shout in anger.

11PM: Naval aviation from the Principe de Asturias bombs the naval base at Tangiers, followed minutes later by a missile salvo from the Alvaro de Bazán. This is the first attack on a Moroccan city and destroys the tiny fleet (mostly patrol boats and a corvette) the Moroccans had to control the straits.

In Madrid King Juan Carlos ends a frantical successions of phone calls to make up a new emergency government. Fortunately, most Spanish politicians are still in the city due to the latter day’s debate and the closure of airspace that night.



12PM: after heavy damaging the Moroccan installations in the north of the country, the 2nd wave of Spanish airplanes returns back to base, where frantical efforts are made for a raid on the Moroccan airbases.

the Arab League issues a declaration condemning the Spanish aggression on a member of the League and declaring that Morocco shall be provided with “moral and material support”. Minutes later, NATO issues a similar declaration on behalf of Spain, but neither side decides for a more direct military help.

The closure of the straits to navigation is already having effect into world navigation and economy. European trade stocks have opened with significant losses. Madrid’s stock exchange session is suspended at 12.15 PM to prevent a total breakdown.

In Lavapiés, Madrid’s most Islamic district, things are even calmer than usual. The streets are empty and almost no stores are open. In the first hours of war, the growing muslim population in Spain prefers to have a low profile. Despite that, the first racist incidents are reported at 12.20 PM. Most are about people of muslim origin being insulted or beaten by an angry mob; but there are several isolated cases of muslims attacking Spaniards. In morocco, many Spaniards and westerners take shelter at the embassy and consulates in the main cities.

All over southern spain and the canary islands, people tries to leave the cities in the event of an unlikely Moroccan raid. The beaches of Andalusia, usually full in these days, are empty.

In Madrid, Mariano Rajoy is sworn as 5th President of the Government since the restoration of democracy in a rushed ceremony at the Moncloa Palace still occupied by the Aznar family. José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero swears as Vice-President. The less vital offices such as Health or Culture are retained by their former titulars, while other offices are occupied by socialists such as Rafael Caldera (Public Administrations) and Catalonian and basque moderate nationalists. For the first time since 1981, a military takes the role of Defense Minister; General Sanz Roldán; also acting as Chief of Staff. [yep, I know, this event won’t mean anything to most of you, but my Spanish readers will surely be delighted to see a Spanish government in which populars, socialists and nationalists work together. Hey, I read lots of timelines about obscure American or british politicians I don’t know about :p]
 
Let me see. Spain claims the right to rule Gibraltar. It has not ruled there for several centuries. The population of Gibraltar have repeatedly made clear they don't want to be ruled by Spain. I don't think Spain has tried to claim that the population wants Spanish rule. As such their claim is based on a desire to rule people who don't want to be ruled by them. Which part of that do you have difficulty understanding?

Steve

Maybe the word imperialistic. Gibraltar was ceded to Britain under certain conditions (the Utrech treaty you know), what most of the spaniards want is that treaty to be granted: British or spanish sovereinity, no independence, no territorial waters, devolution of the neutral area that was illegally occupied during the XIX century, no smuggling,...

As for imperialistic how would you define a nation that enters in a civil war in other nation, occupies one of her ports and claim it for herself, expels the local population... I have just noticed that the word is not imperialistic, it's piracy.


1704 England occupies Gibraltar during the Spanish sucesion war in the name of the Archduke Charles.
1713 Utrech treaty. Gibraltar will have no territorial waters, just the port and a neutral zone is defined in the north.
1728 England moves the neutral zone to the north claiming the range of the guns.
1731 Spain builds some forts to mark the limit of the northern border of the neutral zone.
1804 Yellow Fever in Gibraltar, british authorities ask permission to build some instalations to attend the diseased. The neutral zone is occupied.
1808 The spanish forts in La Linea are destroyed by the british claiming that they could be used by the french.
1813 Yellow Fever in Gibraltar, british authorities ask permission to build some instalations to attend the diseased. The new neutral zone is occupied again.
1815 Yellow Fever in Gibraltar, british authorities ask permission to build some instalations to attend the diseased. The new neutral zone is occupied again.
1854 Yellow Fever in Gibraltar, british authorities ask permission to build some instalations to attend the diseased. The new neutral zone is occupied again.
1908 The British authorities build a wall to protect the territories "acquired" in the XIX century.
1938 During the Spanish Civil war, the british authorities build an airstrip in the neutral zone.
1940-1944 The airstrip is enlarged occuppying spanish territorial waters.
 
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Strangelove. Outstanding TL.
What forces did we had in Melilla? Does La Legión have a Tercio there? I once entered Melilla coming from Morocco, on foot, in the 80's, and had the feeling of entering an american fort in indian territory. (Though I enjoyed my time in Morooco, it's a nice country).
How long can Melilla hold? Because if it falls, I see no way of getting it back without invading Morocco.
BTW, Rajoy and Zapatero working together is really hard to imagine, but funny. And what would the catalan and basque nationalists say? They would try no to get too impregnated of spanish patriotism, it's a bad situation for them.
Besides, what about the Frente Polisario? Would them keep a low profile or reestart their own war, now that the moroccan army is weakened?
 
Strangelove. Outstanding TL.
What forces did we had in Melilla? Does La Legión have a Tercio there? I once entered Melilla coming from Morocco, on foot, in the 80's, and had the feeling of entering an american fort in indian territory. (Though I enjoyed my time in Morooco, it's a nice country).
How long can Melilla hold? Because if it falls, I see no way of getting it back without invading Morocco.
BTW, Rajoy and Zapatero working together is really hard to imagine, but funny. And what would the catalan and basque nationalists say? They would try no to get too impregnated of spanish patriotism, it's a bad situation for them.


Thank you; I'm trying to keep this as realistic as my (limited) knowledge of military stuff allows me.

There is a Tercio of the Legion permanently deployed at both Ceuta and Melilla; and with air and naval superiority they could theoretically hold onto any attack; but with no time for warning the entire civilian population of both cities would be trapped. Ceuta is easy to evacuate and defend; look it up in Google Earth and you'll see it would be impossible to take the city without massive naval support; but Melilla is another business. I'm writing the TL with the assumption that the Legion in Melilla will hold the city as much as they can without inflicting a great damage to the civilian population. As soon as the danger of a city battle is obvious, they will be ordered to evacuate a many soldiers as possible and surrender to prevent a massacre.

As for nationalists holding a seat at the government, I don't see it too far-fetched, especially if we're talking about their most moderate leaders, who can always rely on a solid voting base even if they collaborate with teh evil centralists. :D. I was thinking of people like Duran i Lleida for the Catalonians (maybe giving him Foreign Affairs: heck, even Carod Rovira would have been a better Foreign Affairs minister than Ana Palacio :rolleyes:) or Anasagasti for the Basques in a not very important office.
 
Yes, Pérez Carod-Rovira achieved a diplomatic success during his visit to Jerusalem when he managed to make jews, muslims and christians take a common possition: he managed to enrage everybody with that joke with the thorn crown...


:eek::eek::eek:
 
Wow, that's what I call constructive feedback: starting again with a lame old story nobody remembers
Seriously, I resort to US based forums to get rid of the worst aspects of spanish forums, such as politics invading every aspects of debate and turning every political debate into mudslinging. please, don't screw up that too.
 
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Susano

Banned
and it is more or less clear that it was actually the Spaniards who attacked first,
Depends. The occupation of Perejil Island could already be seen as an act of agression, but for such an argumentation to work, the Spanish souvereignity over it must be regogniced. OTOH, should USA and NATO not do so that will leave a severly pissed off Spain.
 
Depends. The occupation of Perejil Island could already be seen as an act of agression, but for such an argumentation to work, the Spanish souvereignity over it must be regogniced. OTOH, should USA and NATO not do so that will leave a severly pissed off Spain.

The problem is that Morocco argues that Perejil is not spanish territory, since the island is not mentioned in the Treaty that delimited the border in 1912. Spain insists that the Island has belonged to Ceuta since the 17th century and that the Legion manned an outpost there until the 1960's without Morocco ever complaining about it. Basically, both nations have substantious claims towards the island.

for example, in OTL the island was occupied by spanish troops for 5 days before withdrawing due to US pressure, and today its sovereignity keeps being disputed.
 

Susano

Banned
The problem is that Morocco argues that Perejil is not spanish territory, since the island is not mentioned in the Treaty that delimited the border in 1912. Spain insists that the Island has belonged to Ceuta since the 17th century and that the Legion manned an outpost there until the 1960's without Morocco ever complaining about it. Basically, both nations have substantious claims towards the island.

for example, in OTL the island was occupied by spanish troops for 5 days before withdrawing due to US pressure, and today its sovereignity keeps being disputed.

Yeah, well, it is irrelevant who actually has the better claim, though (and even there Id say Spain, but as said, irrelevant). Spain let the island on the wayside, and is content with other countries taking whatever stance on the issue as long as its claim is not actively threatened. If it is, well, look at the very incident you base your timeline on ;) If there is an entire war over this, then I would expect Spain to expect its allies to take up the spanish position on the issue, and hence label the Moroccans as agressors.
 
Yeah, well, it is irrelevant who actually has the better claim, though (and even there Id say Spain, but as said, irrelevant). Spain let the island on the wayside, and is content with other countries taking whatever stance on the issue as long as its claim is not actively threatened. If it is, well, look at the very incident you base your timeline on ;) If there is an entire war over this, then I would expect Spain to expect its allies to take up the spanish position on the issue, and hence label the Moroccans as agressors.

Well, Spain will have a hard time to justify the civilian deaths in the first strike... and maybe an international intervention would conflict with spanish interests ;) Just stay tuned and see the next updates. :D
 
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