A Spanish Empire
- Thread starter isabella
- Start date
The Percy sisters (and their siblings)
Henry Percy, the 6th Earl of Northumberland, without doubt owe his fame to his well know love for his second wife, the fascinating and cultured Anne Boleyn (who he secretly married mere days after receiving the annulment from his first disastrous wedding to lady Mary Talbot, who he was forced to marry) but also for being father of a couple of girls who definitely left a sign in history: the eldest lady Anne Percy (born in 1531) was naturally the great love for which Edward, Duke of York risked everything, while the second Elizabeth, Countess of Leicester (born in 1533) was acknowledged as one of the greatest women of culture of her times and remembered forher passionate marriage with her childhood friend Robert Dudley, great friend of his future brother-in-law Edward. Robert was born as younger son of John Dudley, Viscount Lisle and would become one of the best military commanders of Henry IX, receiving the Earldom of Leicester as recompense for his military victories. While Anne of York and Elizabeth of Leicester are without doubt the most famous among Henry and Anne‘s children, the others deserve at least a passing mention: George, 7th Earl of Northumberland (born 1536), named after the Saint and his maternal uncle and godfather who was the only surviving boy; Catherine, Countess of Ormonde (born in 1537) who married the son of the Irish cousin who her mother had been once destined to marry; Eleanor, Countess of Wiltshire (born 1538) who married her cousin George Boleyn, the only surviving child of her maternal uncle George; and the youngest Alice, Duchess of Suffolk (born 1540), who married the grandson of Princess Margaret and the Duke of Suffolk, whose mother, born Katherine Willoughby was another lady well know for her culture.
Henry Percy, 6th Earl of Northumberland (b. 1502) married a) Mary Talbot (b. 1504) in 1524, annulled 1529 b) Anne Boleyn (b. 1507) in 1529
Henry Percy, 6th Earl of Northumberland (b. 1502) married a) Mary Talbot (b. 1504) in 1524, annulled 1529 b) Anne Boleyn (b. 1507) in 1529
- b) Anne Percy (b. 1531) married Edward Tudor, Duke of York (b. 1531)
- b) Henry Percy (1532-1536)
- b) Elizabeth Percy (b. 1533) married Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester (b. 1532)
- b) Thomas Percy (1535-1540)
- b) George Percy, 7th Earl of Northumberland (b. 1536) married Elizabeth Berkeley (b. 1534)
- b) Catherine Percy (b. 1537) married Thomas Butler, 10th Earl of Ormond (b. 1531)
- b) Eleanor Percy (b. 1538) married George Boleyn, 3rd Earl of Wiltshire (b. 1535)
- b) Alice Percy (b. 1540) married Charles Brandon, 3rd Duke of Suffolk (b. 1538)
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Lovely chapter and I am thrilled to see Harry and Anne so happy, but you mention their two eldest daughters as having been born in the 1430s in the chapter. You may want to fix that. 
Fixed... I need to learn to check that second number who is the trickiest of any yearLovely chapter and I am thrilled to see Harry and Anne so happy, but you mention their two eldest daughters as having been born in the 1430s in the chapter. You may want to fix that.
Very nice to see that Anne and Henry are happy here, and that their daughters' have made some very good matches!
Tudor tree
Henry VII Tudor, King of England (1457-1509) married Elizabeth of York (1466-1503) in 1486
- Arthur, Prince of Wales (1486-1502) married Catherine of Aragon (1485-1513) in 1501
- Margaret (b. 1489) married a) James IV, King of Scotland (1473-1522) in 1503 b) Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk (b. 1484) in 1514
- a) James, Duke of Rothesay (1507-1508)
- a) stillborn daughter (1508)
- a) Arthur, Duke of Rothesay (1509)
- a) James V, King of Scotland (b. 1512) married Elizabeth of England (b. 1520) in 1536 with issues
- a) stillborn daughter (1512)
- a) Alexander, Duke of Ross (b. 1514) married Madeleine of Albany, Countess of Boulogne and Auvergne (b. 1518) in 1532 with issues
- b) Margaret Brandon (b. 1515) married a) Lord Thomas Howard (1511-1540) in 1532, b) Matthew Stewart, Earl of Lennox (b. 1516) in 1444 with issues by both
- b) Elizabeth Brandon (b. 1517) married Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset (b. 1517) in 1533 with issues
- b) Eleanor Brandon (b. 1519) married Henry Clifford, Earl of Cumberland (b. 1517) in 1535 with issues
- b) Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk (b. 1520) married Katherine Willoughby (b. 1519) with issues
- Henry VIII, King of England (b. 1491) married a) Catherine of Aragon (1485-1518) in 1505, b) Joanna of Portugal (b. 1503) in 1519 and had relationship with c) Elizabeth Blount (b. 1500), d) Mary Boleyn Carey (b. 1499), e) Jane Seymour (1508-1539) and f) Katherine Howard (b. 1523)
- a) miscarriage (1508)
- a) stillborn son (1509)
- a) Henry, Prince of Wales (1511)
- a) Isabella (1512)
- a) stillborn daughter (1514)
- a) Mary (1516-1520)
- c) Elizabeth Fitzroy (b. 1517) married George Boleyn, Earl of Wiltshire (b. 1504) in 1531 with issue
- c) Henry Fitzroy, Earl of Notthingham (b. 1518) married Mary Howard (b. 1519) without surviving issue
- a) miscarried daughter (1518)
- b) Elizabeth of England (b. 1520) married James V, King of Scotland (b. 1512) in 1536 with issue
- b) Henry IX, King of England (b. 1522) married Eleanor of Spain (b.1526) in 1540 with issue
- b) Joanna of England (b. 1524) married William, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b. 1514) in 1539 with issue
- b) Beatrice of England (b. 1528) married John III, King of Spain (b. 1514) in 1541 with issue
- d) William Fitzroy, Earl of Pembroke (1529-1534)
- b) Edward, Duke of York (b.1531) married Anne Percy (b. 1531) with issue
- d) Thomas Fitzroy (1532-1533)
- e) Jane Fitzroy (1534)
- e) stillborn son (1537)
- f) Katherine Fitzroy (b. 1541) married Edward Seymour, Viscount Beauchamp (b. 1439) with issue
- f) Eleanor Fitzroy (b. 1543) married Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (b. 1536) as second wife with issues
- Elizabeth (1492-1495)
- Mary (1496-1523) married Karl V, Holy Roman Emperor (1500-1531) in 1515
- see under Karl V
- Edward, Duke of Richmond (1498-1499)
- Edmund, Duke of Somerset (1499-1500)
- Katherine (1503)
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Well it seems that Henry VIII has a boatload of kids here 😂... Also nice to see Charles and Margaret having some living children, great tree!
Well, Catherine had 7 pregnancies (here without surviving children, but still) ... then add the 5 pregnancies of Beatrice, plus another 8 pregnancies kids between his four mistresses.... 20 pregnancies with 15 children born alive (including the ones who lived only few hours or days) and 8 surviving looks pretty likely to me...
Sooner or later I will write something more about this ATL Tudor aristocracy... I am developing the English side (and partially the Austrian) of this universe much more than the Spanish one...
Maps are not my field, sorry.
ATL Spain will be include the whole peninsula plus Naples, Sicily, Sardinia (sooner or later also Corsica) and all the OTL colonies of Castile and Portugal (in America, Asia and Africa), Milan will stay independent under local rulers (who likely will take again control of Genoa sooner or later), for the Habsburgs the Polish branch will rule over Poland, Lithuania and Hungary, while the Imperial one will have Austria, Bohemia, both Burgundies, Alsace, Lorraine and the whole Netherland, Belgium, Luxembourg and likely will take away at least some chunks of territory from Switzerland and they will have also a good control over the states of the HRE who they do not rule directly
No idea
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Deleted member 147978
Very interesting @isabella.
Never had seen Margaret Tudor and Charles Brandon being together and having children. Impressed that Alexander Stewart, Duke of Ross survives.
And about Henry VIII, damn is his seed that fertile ITTL?
With Mary Tudor out of question for him I was searching a way for not butterflying their children and Margaret’s OTL marital history made the switch reasonable…
Alexander of Ross in OTL died when he was over a year and half so was probably killed by some childhood illness (who can be butterflied)
For Henry well, keep in mind who in OTL Catherine had 7 pregnancies, Henry had most likely fathered also Bessie Blount’s eldest daughter (so they are already 9 pregnancies) and is believed to be the father of one or both children of Mary Boleyn and Carey and you need to add Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour pregnancies at the count (most likely three/four and two and possibly also Katherine Howard was pregnant so we at 18 for OTL and that with the jousting accident and everything).
Here Catherine had all her OTL pregnancies, her niece Beatrice (who in OTL had 9 pregnancies with 4 children living at least one year) has 5 with 4 children living and Henry had children by four mistresses (Bessie Blount, Mary Boleyn, Jane Seymour and Catherine Howard with two pregnancies each)
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With the Habsburgs in control of Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary, I'd like to see them try to tackle the Swedes, Russians, and Ottomans all at once.
I have no idea of what Maximilian (or his heirs) will do… In any case Sweden is not likely to be involved against them as it will remain under a sort of Kalmar union under the line of Christian II (who is not enemy of the Habsburgs). About Russians and Ottomans well the Polish Habsburgs will receive a lot of support against the latter from the Imperial branch and the Spanish cousins (who hated the infidels, in their best tradition).
I can see a daughter of John III of Spain and Beatrice marrying the heir of Maximilian and Elizabeth of Poland
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I wonder if Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Lithuania will become one domain, or is it not possible?
They will not. Hungary, Poland and Lithuania yes, eventually, but Austria has another ruler, belonging to the Imperial branch
Ok, I did a quick map about the whole situation, if we suppose things go more or less as they happened, but with the only difference of Miguel da Paz surviving.
Basically the Aviz possessions would be:
The Albret possessions at that time were:
Now, with the Habsburgs, and if Charles becomes Holy Roman Emperor as OTL:
Now, in the case of Ferdinand:
My only doubt is with Milan. If things go as with OTL, would Charles claim the duchy by himself? Or he would grant it to his brother? If he grants it to his brother, it would be a useful march against french and turkish attacks, but if he keeps it, he could create some kind of "Burgundian Road" akin of OTL "Spanish Road". Both outcomes are interesting in their own ways, imho.
Basically the Aviz possessions would be:
- The Crown of Castile: Castile proper, Leon, Asturias, the Vascongadas, the rest of the kingdoms and some african ports.
- The Crown of Aragon: Aragon proper, Catalonia, Valencia, Majorca, Naples, Sicily and the rest of the italian lands.
- The Kingdom of Portugal: Portugal proper and some african ports (the so called Algarves).
The Albret possessions at that time were:
- The Kingdom of Navarre: Practically de jure because they only controlled the french portion (Ultrapuertos), but let's say they are given the rest if the marriage is consummated.
- Some french holdings: Albret, Foix, Bearn, Bigorre, Perigord, Limoges, etc.
Now, with the Habsburgs, and if Charles becomes Holy Roman Emperor as OTL:
- The Burgundian lands: Artois, The Low Countries, Franche-Comte, Luxembourg, etc.
- The Austrian Lands: Austria proper, Inner Austria, Upper Austria, etc.
Now, in the case of Ferdinand:
- The Crown of Bohemia: Bohemia proper, Moravia, Silesia, etc.
- The Kingdom of Hungary: Basically only the western lands that were left after the Battle of Mohacs (aka Royal Hungary).
- The Kingdom of Croatia: Albeit usually ignored, it was still its own kingdom, but in personal union with whoever was the King of Hungary.
My only doubt is with Milan. If things go as with OTL, would Charles claim the duchy by himself? Or he would grant it to his brother? If he grants it to his brother, it would be a useful march against french and turkish attacks, but if he keeps it, he could create some kind of "Burgundian Road" akin of OTL "Spanish Road". Both outcomes are interesting in their own ways, imho.
Paradoxer
Banned
What about North Africa? A stronger United Iberian especially one with such influence in mediterranean will likely come to odds with Berbers pirates and if European borders are stable likely go on a “reconquestia” of North Africa(Morocco, coastal Algeria, Tunis, and maybe Libya). If successful that sees Spain bunker down its European gains and only indirectly involving themselves in dynastic disputes(they like to come out on top but have huge ass Empire to imagine so like British in otl often more focused on that).
They would be wise not to directly tie themselves to northern Italy(take corsica and be done with it) and Belgium. Let France distract themselves there. Stay on good terms with Pope also always helps in diplomacy. Additionally, if Spain more focused on “spreading Catholicism”(colonial expansion) and not Europe wars or dynasty disputes that probably improves thing with the Papal States and might make it more Spanish leaning