A southern coup

instead of Seceding ,Southern officers in dc or southern states send an army to overthrow the US government or Lincoln .what would happen
 
If such a coup got off the ground and say a divisions worth of men was marched on Washington and a military coup declared then things get fairly clear cut. The Courts would obviously not recognize such a government, and you would have loyalist generals moving regiments into position to besiege/crush the coup instigators almost immediately.
 

Zek Sora

Donor
If such a coup got off the ground and say a divisions worth of men was marched on Washington and a military coup declared then things get fairly clear cut. The Courts would obviously not recognize such a government, and you would have loyalist generals moving regiments into position to besiege/crush the coup instigators almost immediately.

Sounds about right. I would also note that it's virtually impossible to actually get a coup going in the first place, given the fact that American generals are not known for their political instincts.
 
It just wouldn't work since the South craved legitimacy, and a coup is the very opposite of that.

They could claim that Lincoln and the government were going to take their rights,and they were just overthrowing a tyrant government. A second american revolution
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
There was no rebel army in existence and there's the minor

instead of Seceding ,Southern officers in dc or southern states send an army to overthrow the US government or Lincoln .what would happen

There was no rebel army in existence before inauguration day (March 4, 1861) and there's the minor problem that the states in the Upper South didn't secede until after the lower south began the war with the bombardment of Fort Sumter (April 12, 1861). Virginia, of course, did not secede until April 17.

Secession dates are below - you will note a pattern:

South Carolina: December 20, 1860
Mississippi: January 9, 1861
Florida: January 10, 1861
Alabama: January 11, 1861
Georgia: January 19, 1861
Louisiana: January 26, 1861
Texas: February 1, 1861
Virginia: April 17, 1861
Arkansas: May 6, 1861
North Carolina: May 20, 1861
Tennessee: June 8, 1861

Other than those minor issues, it's a brilliant plan.:rolleyes:

Best,
 
One thing to note, however, is that this would result in the American Civil War actually being a civil war, as opposed to a rebellion, which is what OTLs ACW actually was by definition
 
There was no rebel army in existence before inauguration day (March 4, 1861) and there's the minor problem that the states in the Upper South didn't secede until after the lower south began the war with the bombardment of Fort Sumter (April 12, 1861). Virginia, of course, did not secede until April 17.

Secession dates are below - you will note a pattern:

South Carolina: December 20, 1860
Mississippi: January 9, 1861
Florida: January 10, 1861
Alabama: January 11, 1861
Georgia: January 19, 1861
Louisiana: January 26, 1861
Texas: February 1, 1861
Virginia: April 17, 1861
Arkansas: May 6, 1861
North Carolina: May 20, 1861
Tennessee: June 8, 1861

Other than those minor issues, it's a brilliant plan.:rolleyes:

Best,

There's the armies around DC and officers in it :cool:
 

Japhy

Banned
There's the armies around DC and officers in it :cool:

No there's not. The regular Army is exceptionally tiny, a few thousand men at the time. And they're nearly all scattered in the Far West or piecemeal between dozens of Forts from Maine to Key West to Texas.

General-in-Cheif Scott operated his headquarters from New York City. Besides the Marines and Staff Officers and their aids at the War Department the total number of Federal Troops in the vicinity around Washington DC was exactly one man, the caretaker at Fort Washington. Beyond that you have the arsenal at Harper's Ferry garrisoned in the Spring of 1861 by less than a platoon of recruits led by Lt. Roger Jones, an officer at the Tredgar Iron Works, A caretaker at Fort McHenry, I *think* a small number of artillerymen at Fortress Monroe in Virginia and potentially some recruiters.

While Buchanan's treasonous Secretaries of War could get away with trying to redeploy arms stockpiles to Southern Post Offices and send the Navy to the ends of the Earth, abandoning the frontier and getting a build up of troops around Washington would be impossible to miss, and even a fool like Buchanan wouldn't ok it.

Its also worth nothing that the total number of military resignations to join the South was somewhere around 1/3rd of the Officer Corps. The only Southern-Majority Led unit was the 2nd US Cavalry which Jefferson Davis had created to be Southern led.

Problem there? Its commander Albert S. Johnson was commanding the US Army in California, Robert E. Lee was on extended leave, William J. Hardee was seconded to West Point, and George H. Thomas, determined unionist was in command. Not that the others would have much signed off on a coup.

And even then there's the issue that the officers could do what they please, but why would the troops listen? You could count the number of serving, enlisted US army soldiers who joined the Confederacy without having to worry about running out of fingers and toes. The odds that they'd be willing to support a military coup, from which they would gain nothing? Slim to none. And even Robert E. Lee can't seize control of a government without troops.

There is room for something amounting to a coup, but that's Virginia sending troops across the river to take Washington DC, and seizing not only the leadership but the seals of the government offices there, and taking Harper's Ferry intact, and succeeding in transferring arms from that location to the Pro-Secession Baltimore forces, and doing it all before joining the Confederacy. Even then, they can do as they pleased having "seized" the US Government but Congress wasn't in secession yet and it doesn't solve the problem of increased resistance, serving only as a capture of the US government on paper only. Mind you the problem then is that the Virginians didn't have the will and drive to do that, which is why the Confederacy lost their one chance to take DC in the war.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Who were, shockingly enough, loyal...

There's the armies around DC and officers in it :cool:

Who were, shockingly enough, loyal...:rolleyes:

The DC Militia was purged of southern sympathizers before Buchanan left office, under the supervision of Scott and CP Stone, who Scott appointed to the position of inspector general of the District militia in the winter of 1860-61; in addition, the regular army and the Navy and Marine elements at the Navy Yard were also loyal. By inauguration day, there were more than 3,000 loyal troops in the District, including regular artillery, cavalry, and engineers.

The first of the 75,000 militia from outside of the District called up in April arrived in Washington on April 18.

So again, brilliant plan, other than the minor issues for the rebels of mission, enemy, time, troops, and terrain.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
16,000 regulars, actually;

No there's not. The regular Army is exceptionally tiny, a few thousand men at the time. And they're nearly all scattered in the Far West or piecemeal between dozens of Forts from Maine to Key West to Texas.

-snip -

And even then there's the issue that the officers could do what they please, but why would the troops listen? You could count the number of serving, enlisted US army soldiers who joined the Confederacy without having to worry about running out of fingers and toes. The odds that they'd be willing to support a military coup, from which they would gain nothing? Slim to none. And even Robert E. Lee can't seize control of a government without troops.


There were 16,000 regulars, actually; but you are correct, they were stationed (for the most part) on the coasts or west of the Mississippi in 1860-16, but Scott relocated to Washington in the winter of 1860-61 and he and other loyalists cleaned house in the DC Militia even when Buchanan was still president.

Best,
 

Japhy

Banned
There were 16,000 regulars, actually; but you are correct, they were stationed (for the most part) on the coasts or west of the Mississippi in 1860-16, but Scott relocated to Washington in the winter of 1860-61 and he and other loyalists cleaned house in the DC Militia even when Buchanan was still president.

Best,

I wont split hair but 16 seems to me to certainly be a "few" thousand. :p

And of course you are correct about the DC militia having been purged by Captain Stone, in fact I agree with everything you said. And yes, I was mistaken, having forgotten that Scott had moved South from New York in the secession winter, rather than in the spring. My apologies.

That said, may I ask where you have the 3,000 number from?

Stone's militia was IIRC somewhat less than 2,000 and of course peaked on inauguration day. Lincoln at most had an honor and regular guard of no more than one or two companies (Which by the standard of the time would have been massively under strength) of Cavalry and Infantry on hand at the Inauguration, and whom departed the city rather rapidly afterwards.
 

Japhy

Banned
Irregardless of Inauguration Day though, a Coup could theoretically be set to any day after the results of the election become clear. The problem is still that there's no force capable of doing the job.

And even then you take Washington, you declare your man president, so what? What power do you hold? You've taken one city? What happens when the Governor of New York, or Pennsylvania, or Ohio, or Illinois calls bullshit and raises his militia?
 
Apart from the practicalities of this, a big problem is that the South didn't envisage ruling Washington: they were so wedded to the notion of states rights that it was always about "escaping" Federal authority. The Confederate Government had an awkward enough time trying to keep all its states on the same page.
 
And even then you take Washington, you declare your man president, so what? What power do you hold? You've taken one city? What happens when the Governor of New York, or Pennsylvania, or Ohio, or Illinois calls bullshit and raises his militia?

Evil Mayor of New York Fernando Wood--the man so awful, Tammany Hall threw him out, causing him to found his own version--declares his support for the new administration and attempts to start something against the governor, thus making hanging an option?

But--yeah--something that manages to be a worse idea than the CSA.

Which takes some doing.
 
IIRC one of the Confederacy's main advantages was that public opinion was split over whether or not succession was legal. Marching on Washington and organising a coup d'état would be pretty much guaranteed to unite the rest of the country against them.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
IIRC, there's a report in the OR that I read some time ago

I wont split hair but 16 seems to me to certainly be a "few" thousand. :p

And of course you are correct about the DC militia having been purged by Captain Stone, in fact I agree with everything you said. And yes, I was mistaken, having forgotten that Scott had moved South from New York in the secession winter, rather than in the spring. My apologies.

That said, may I ask where you have the 3,000 number from?

Stone's militia was IIRC somewhat less than 2,000 and of course peaked on inauguration day. Lincoln at most had an honor and regular guard of no more than one or two companies (Which by the standard of the time would have been massively under strength) of Cavalry and Infantry on hand at the Inauguration, and whom departed the city rather rapidly afterwards.

IIRC, there's a report in the OR that I read some time ago; I'll see if I can find it again.

"Few" to me implies a couple of thousand, but okay.;)

Best,
 
instead of Seceding ,Southern officers in dc or southern states send an army to overthrow the US government or Lincoln .what would happen

First, few in the South would support such a plan. The legitimacy of secession was one thing. There is an arguable case for it; none for
a purely criminal conspiracy against the government.

Second, no U.S. Army officers would participate. They took their oaths of allegiance fairly seriously. Resigning to join the Confederacy was one thing. Conspiring against the government while still bound by the oath was another.

Third, Lincoln was in office for over a month before Virginia declared secession. No rebel force could approach Washington until then, and substantial Union troops from the North within a few days after that. THe Confederacy had no organized force for such move until later.
 

jahenders

Banned
You could have a group of armed men rush in, kill the President, and seize the White House temporarily, but that's not a successful coup because they'd just be shot in a few hours.

I think the ONLY way you could have any potential for a successful coup in the US is if the President (and Congress?) was doing something that a sizeable portion of the military believed put the survival of the US at risk. I don't think you can create that mindset with the secession, slavery, etc. To have that, you'd have to have something like the British (1812), Mexico (1847), Japanese (1941), etc attacking and the President just caves and lets them walk in and take what they want. That would be viewed as treasonous and would invoke the oath clause "... defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Under THAT kind of scenario, you could have a fairly small group seize the White House and others seize Congress and the Supreme Court. Then, sympathetic groups nearby, instead of attacking them, join them in defending what they seize. The group then explains openly why they had to step in to stop the treason and that they will stand down as soon as new elections are held and a new President sworn in. "Treasonous" congressmen and judges are imprisoned, but ones that repudiate the President's previous treasonous acts are allowed to continue their work. States whose representatives were seized are allowed to send new representatives who will be seated as long as they repudiate the treasonous acts.
 
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