A South American “Japan”?

whitecrow

Banned
This site has a number of “revers” timelines – e.g.: ones where Arab world becomes dominant while Christendom lags behind, or ones where USA becomes a communist dictatorship while Russia is the “leader of the free world”, etc. In One such recent timeline where USA goes communist and Russia doesn’t, the author was struggling to come up with a “Perl Harbor” analog for Russia. Specifically, the ideal analog would have had some nation (other than Japan) attack the Russian Pacific fleet in Vladivostok.

Now carrying this analogy further, to be a true Japan counterpart the aggressor nation would have had to be separated by the Pacific ocean from Russia and be relatively close to ATL USSR (USA). So by that logic, it would need to have been a South American or Central American nation.

So now we come to the core of the issue: which South or Central American nation could have, in theory, 1) gone on a war spree against its neighbors in an effort to create an “[Insert the Nation’s Name Here] Co-Prosperity Sphere” (really, an “[Insert the Nation’s Name Here] Empire”), 2) try to lay claim to various Pacific Island and 3) carry out a pre-emptive strike on Russian Pacific Fleet in hopes that it would prevent Russia from interfering in their empire-building efforts?

Now if your only contribution to the thread is going to be “none of them because US stomps them! MERICA F*CK YEAH!” then I am going to preempt you right now and say that the US, due to ATL 2nd civil war and Stalin’s purges, is in no shape to go on South American adventures.
 
I know that you said not to do something like this, but since the POD is after 1900, I don't see any Central or South American nation ever developing a navy or air force powerful enough to be a credible threat to Russia, after over 100 years of American dominance. It takes a while to build up a military
 
The roots of Japanese military strength go back waaay before 1900, so your POD would likely have to do so as well. That said, I'm guessing only Brazil or Argentina would have the population base to imitate Japan in any meaningful fashion, and them attacking Russia would be...awkward. Maybe if Chile were a part of Argentina, that would work, but there's no telling where the butterflies would lead from there.
 

whitecrow

Banned
Hm. What about a POD in early 1900 or just before then that prevents or mitigates the economic recession suffered by Argentina due to the Baring Crisis?
 

whitecrow

Banned
Still doesn't give them a Pacific coast to attack Russia with.
Have them go to war with a weakened Chile? Or simply sail around Tierra del Fuego?

Which reminds me -- wasn't the OTL Argentine Junta planning on going to war with Chile over some Pacific holdings?
 
Options would seem to be an alternate Mexico, Gran Colombia, or Southern Cone (Argentina plus Chile). They'd have the population and resources to be a significant threat. If we want a close analogue with Japan which lacked several important industrial resources, then perhaps the Southern Cone would be a better pick.
 

whitecrow

Banned
Which reminds me -- wasn't the OTL Argentine Junta planning on going to war with Chile over some Pacific holdings?
Turns out I was thinking of the "Beagle Conflict"
Options would seem to be an alternate Mexico, Gran Colombia, or Southern Cone (Argentina plus Chile). They'd have the population and resources to be a significant threat. If we want a close analogue with Japan which lacked several important industrial resources, then perhaps the Southern Cone would be a better pick.
I wonder if the "Southern Cone" can invade Brazil during some time of great turmoil in Brazil to serve as the analog for the Japanese invasion of China?
 
If anyone's curious, it's my timeline, the Reverse Cold War he's talking about, I couldn't figure out what to do about Pearl Harbor, as my POD was after 1900, I personally didn't see Japan trying to pull of a stunt like that, as Russia (TTL's USA) is right next door to Japan, it would be suicide, Japan would be curbstomped by 1943, so there really wasen't a Pearl Harbor In my TL, the event that served that purpose was the invasion of the Ottoman Empire.
 
how about Perú ruled by revengeful Andres A. Caceres, who decide to retake the old glory of Perú (virreynato), trying to build its power since the 1883, only being dictator, and and then we can arrive before he die, pass power to a young Sanchez Cerro (1931), so they launch and invasion in Chile or Ecuador?
 
how about Perú ruled by revengeful Andres A. Caceres, who decide to retake the old glory of Perú (virreynato), trying to build its power since the 1883, only being dictator, and and then we can arrive before he die, pass power to a young Sanchez Cerro (1931), so they launch and invasion in Chile or Ecuador?

NOW you're thinking. :cool:
 
how about Perú ruled by revengeful Andres A. Caceres, who decide to retake the old glory of Perú (virreynato), trying to build its power since the 1883, only being dictator, and and then we can arrive before he die, pass power to a young Sanchez Cerro (1931), so they launch and invasion in Chile or Ecuador?

Population of Peru 1950 (farthest back the Wikipedia page goes, and good enough to illustrate my point): 7.6 million.

Population of Japan 1950: 84 million.

Yeah, Peru's not threatening Russia anytime soon.
 
Ah, but remember that Perú is still trying to smart up from the War of the Pacific (Bolivia, too), because from the Peruvian POV Chile "stole" Peruvian land. (Chile, of course, would disagree). A second Peruvian-Chilean war, perhaps, which would be just as disastrous as the War of the Triple Alliance?

Population of Peru 1950 (farthest back the Wikipedia page goes, and good enough to illustrate my point): 7.6 million.

Population of Japan 1950: 84 million.

Yeah, Peru's not threatening Russia anytime soon.
 
If you took all of the lands comprising the former Inca Empire (Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, northern Chile, northwestern Argentina, and southern Colombia), you'd have about 75 million people. It's still not Japan's 127 million, but it's a decent number. As for how to get a country containing this much territory in a world that still has a United States analog, I'm not entirely sure, but the Viceroyalty of Peru did contain Chile. Ecuador was part of New Granada, but culturally speaking, it's closer to Peru than it is to Colombia and Venezuela, so perhaps it can be absorbed at some point. The Andean parts of Colombia and Argentina could be conquered during the same types of border wars that have always plagued post-colonial South America.
 
Well ignoring the sub-forum etiquette rather than rabbiting on about 1900, Have Bolivar's dream of a united Latin America that at least dominates the Hispanic States come to fruition - Have them then spread out into the Pacific - really though you need Russia to do likewise as Japan never attacked San Francisco.

Really the Pacific War is quite unique so maybe have an unFascist Britain with Scandinavian allies attack Kronstadt? Or with Turkish allies attack Sevastopol, repeating a great shame in Russian military history, leading to the second Crimean War, replacing island hopping with really intense mountain warfare.

But of course then you have to deal with Germany and France to make Russia a logical target for Britain. Its quite the shoehorn.

My 2 pence.
 
If you took all of the lands comprising the former Inca Empire (Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, northern Chile, northwestern Argentina, and southern Colombia), you'd have about 75 million people. It's still not Japan's 127 million, but it's a decent number. As for how to get a country containing this much territory in a world that still has a United States analog, I'm not entirely sure, but the Viceroyalty of Peru did contain Chile. Ecuador was part of New Granada, but culturally speaking, it's closer to Peru than it is to Colombia and Venezuela, so perhaps it can be absorbed at some point. The Andean parts of Colombia and Argentina could be conquered during the same types of border wars that have always plagued post-colonial South America.
that is what i am looking for, what was one a unique entity was divided , intentionally or not; so, maybe somene want to get together all again, and he mas gain favor of the oppresed sector of population; so it cna originate in Perú.

about Bolivars, dream, he wants to be a dictador, supreme ruler, at the end he brings division, by creating Ecuador, and Bolivia
 

whitecrow

Banned
Thanks for the great input everyone :). Excellent ideas all around!

If one wanted to keep pre-1900 PODs to a minimum and stick with Argentina, what would could be the best time for Argentina to merge with/annex/conquer Chile? Chile emerged from a civil war in the end of 19th century – could another civil war be fermented, giving Argentina the chance to invade when the country is in chaos? Or is there a way to get a Chilean government that opts out to merge with Argentina peacefully on its own accord?

And if we are going with Japanese Empire parallels, would Chile be the “Korea” of this world? Or would Argentina need the cooperation of the Chilean population for future conquests, thus diminishing the amount of atrocities the Argentinians can commit in Chile?
 
^ Dammit, a future TL idea I had was exactly such an Argentine-Chilean union. :mad: Don't ask me for details, though - I don't have a clue on how to get that to work, and even then it would have to be in my own way.
 
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