A Song was Heard in China - A Different Tiananmen

[LeX]

In other words, pretty much the exact same type of statement I'm replying to in the first place. Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by lack of evidence.

Um, many people have been killed by the US in wars. The issue doesn't only have to do with how people are dead, but how the government runs its country in general. Last time I checked the United States is a democracy, has systematically implemented human rights, and effective rule of law. The US doesn't censor stuff or ban political/religious organizations. And if you want to go for more...inclusive body counts (not just cherry picking the last twenty years), the Chinese have, since 1949, killed like eight times as many people as the US has since WW2.

Speaking of which, since the CCP killed less people from 1941 to 1945 than the US forces did, that must mean that the Americans were "less civilized", right?

 

[Typo]

Um, many people have been killed by the US in wars. The issue doesn't only have to do with how people are dead, but how the government runs its country in general. Last time I checked the United States is a democracy, has systematically implemented human rights, and effective rule of law. The US doesn't censor stuff or ban political/religious organizations. And if you want to go for more...inclusive body counts (not just cherry picking the last twenty years), the Chinese have, since 1949, killed like eight times as many people as the US has since WW2.

Speaking of which, since the CCP killed less people from 1941 to 1945 than the US forces did, that must mean that the Americans were "less civilized", right?

Yes, America implements all those nice things for themselves, then go abroad and kill people and/or put them in torture camps, what's your point, that's it's better the kill and torture people in foreign countries than your own?

I'm not saying one is less civilized than the other, nor am I trying to put the hurr America is better than china/China is better than america argument I'm sure you are looking for, I'm just saying the self-righteous China bashing is so full of implicit double-standard it's really retarded, trying to vaguely justify this with the classic "well you killed more people" is also one of the stupidest arguments I've heard in my life.

Also stop reply to me through pm plz

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Yes, America implements all those nice things for themselves, then go abroad and kill people and/or put them in torture camps, what's your point, that's it's better the kill and torture people in foreign countries than your own?

I'm not saying one is less civilized than the other, nor am I trying to put the hurr America is better than china/China is better than america argument I'm sure you are looking for, I'm just saying the self-righteous China bashing is so full of implicit double-standard it's really retarded, trying to vaguely justify this with the classic "well you killed more people" is also one of the stupidest arguments I've heard in my life.

Also stop reply to me through pm plz

Golly gee, when you said you were on a thin line to kicking, you were right! See you in a week.

 

[LeX]

Yes, America implements all those nice things for themselves, then go abroad and kill people, what's your point, that's it's better the kill people in foreign countries than your own?

Why are you using this narrow-minded logic to interpret my post? Of course I don't think it's good that the US invades other countries resulting in loss of life. But it's not like the CCP is any better. I'd say it's worse because in addition to killing/screwing over innocent people, it's also a repressive government to boot. At least the USA is actually trying to set up working democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan instead of, say, annexing them and destroying their culture.

I'm not saying one is less civilized than the other, I'm just saying the self-righteous China bashing is so full of implicit double-standard it's really retarded

mcdo's post was in no way self-righteous, nor did it contain any sort of double-standard. He never mentioned the US, only the concept of democracy and open societies.

EDIT: Oh, he's gone.

 

[Gosing]

Yes, America implements all those nice things for themselves, then go abroad and kill people and/or put them in torture camps, what's your point, that's it's better the kill and torture people in foreign countries than your own?

I'm not saying one is less civilized than the other, I'm just saying the self-righteous China bashing is so full of implicit double-standard it's really retarded

Iraq was a war. It was a dirty war, there is no doubt, and there is doubt as to its justification, but it was still a war. I.e, an armed conflict during which the armies of two or more nations attempt to kill each other. Every state since the beginning of man has engaged in it, so your definition of "civilization" makes the whole concept moot.

And on the subject of double standards, do you count the government of Sadaam Hussein as civlized despite killing all those Americans in the Gulf Wars? Do you consider all those Germans killed by the British in the First World War to be a blot upon the face of Georgian Britain?

The US Army killed members of enemy forces that would happily kill its members if they had a chance.

China killed peacefully protesting university students.

There is no double standard.

EDIT: And thanks to BKW.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Note to Tonykwok: Please don't let the preceding debate kill this TL

 

[Gosing]

Note to Tonykwok: Please don't let the preceding debate kill this TL

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[AH.edwoo]

Whoops, RIVER CRABBED.

 

[mcdo]

I do try hard to avoid being drawn into political issues. Sometime I get carried away.


@Gosing
>but it was still a war. I.e, an armed conflict during which the armies of two or more nations attempt to kill each other. Every state since the beginning of man has engaged in it
How does that even remotely justify war? To kill 1 man is foul murder but to kill a million become morally acceptable?

>so your definition of "civilization" makes the whole concept moot.
And does your definition of civilization consists entirely of White countries who go around killing people in brown countries because we aren't as civilized as you?

>The US Army killed members of enemy forces that would happily kill its members if they had a chance.
The USA army travelled across the planet to kill people acting in defense of their own country. It was one thing to expel the Iraqis from Kuwait. It is quite another to invade, occupy and brutalize Iraqis in their own countries. Abu-Ghraib puts the lie into American claims of concern for the welfare of ordinary Iraqis. If you really cared, you would of issued them all with Greencards and let them move to America.

>China killed peacefully protesting university students.
Funny thing is I rather live in China than the free and democratic US liberated Iraq.
The core point is that Deng Xiaoping took a wretched and broken country and initiated a reform program that set China on a path of growing prosperity and liberty. The US took one of the best educated, most egalitarian, most "westernized" countries in the Middle-East with the most sizeable middle class and transformed it into an ongoing humanitarian crisis. Congratulations!

>There is no double standard.
Since fine liberal white folk are the only rightful arbiters of truth and justice, who am I to argue?


@tonykwok
I'm curious how you intend to do US-China relationship. Most of the difficulties in US-China relations in the OTL are clearly our fault since America is ever a selfless paragon of righteousness and we Chinese are despicable brainwashed warmongering slaves of Mao. I assume there won't be much bilateral friction, aside from the carpet burns. Or will the innate racism of the Han mindset come into play? Because it has been remarked by wiser men than I that the Han race is the most racially racist race of all racist races. An inherent racial defect of ours, apparently. This might complicate relations with civilized white countries if they are offended by hordes of ignorant uppity Chinamen who don't know our proper place!
I trust a democratic China has no need a military beyond a militia and a coastguard? Can there please be another 八國聯軍, mandated by the UN to bring peace and de-nazification over us heathen savages? That way China can be as free as one giant sized liberated Iraq!
Even as we huddle among the rubble of our home against the sound of distant gunfire, at least we will know the taste of freedom! Sure millions of Chinese might die but that's ok because according to Gosing, c'est la guerre. Besides it's the fault of those blasted islamo-commies for resisting the invariably righteous white armies of great justice.


@BKW
Is there an explicit AH party line that I have to tow to avoided being River Crabbed like Typo?
I think Chinese people who disagree with white people are outrageous. They disturb the refined sense of inherent natural moral superiority of white people with their disruptive nationalistic bigotry.

Welcome back, Typo. Truely, you are a master of trolling.
Reported.

 

[YLi]

A lot of Chinese people actually think precisely like that.

I find myself thinking like that sometimes too, especially when I'm drunk.

There's a lot of really, really, really nasty history between the West and China and relations aren't really that great between the two.

Not only do massive amounts of misconceptions occur between both sides, but many Chinese people and Westerners alike are more than willing to point fingers and assign blame rather than try for reconciliation.

 

[mcdo]

A lot of Chinese people actually think precisely like that.

I find myself thinking like that sometimes too, especially when I'm drunk.

There's a lot of really, really, really nasty history between the West and China and relations aren't really that great between the two.

Not only do massive amounts of misconceptions occur between both sides, but many Chinese people and Westerners alike are more than willing to point fingers and assign blame rather than try for reconciliation.

I don't speak any Chinese language, so I don't know anything about public opinion there the way I might in Japan or the UK. Of course you are right that China and the West have had a bad relationship for the past 200 years or so. It doesn't help that, during the post-colonial era when the West was at least starting to see imperial explotation as wrong, China was cut off from being on the "wrong side" in the ColdWar. Chinese people have good reason to suspect hypocracy in "western" criticism of China, even now. However, Wuguanhui seems to be implying that any and all foreign criticism is based solely on racism. Is that really a mainstream view in China today?

 

[YLi]

. However, Wuguanhui seems to be implying that any and all foreign criticism is based solely on racism. Is that really a mainstream view in China today?

Race has a lot to do with it, on both sides. Unfortunately, a great deal of nationalists simply cannot see beyond race as a factor.

Unfortunately, those who shout the loudest are the ones most often heard.

 

[AH.edwoo]

Welcome back, Typo. Truely, you are a master of trolling.
Reported.

Who is this "Typo" that you speak of? It is not I.

>trolling
I wasn't really trolling but I was perhaps too abrasive with other people's egos.
I really shouldn't post in a foul mood. I've censored it to avoid hurting the feelings of white people.

 

[AH.edwoo]

@YLi & mcdo

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree to blame all present day frictions entirely on history. Although history does play a huge part, we can as enlightened people look beyond that and chart a better path. Sapient beings are not predestined to conflict. It is a choice.

China chooses to sit at home, make money and uplift hundreds of millions of people into a better quality of life, while America chooses to drop bombs and murderize entire communities for truth, justice and the American way.

It's a choice.

 

[Kinny Riddle]

Just before I went to bed last night, saw a troll up to no good. Refused to entertain him with a response and duly reported him.

mcdo, from what you said, a serial offender like him ought to be banned outright, rather than be excluded for another week.

Whoops, RIVER CRABBED.

LOL, couldn't have put it any better, mate.

 

[AH.edwoo]

Just before I went to bed last night, saw a troll up to no good. Refused to entertain him with a response and duly reported him.

mcdo, from what you said, a serial offender like him ought to be banned outright, rather than be excluded for another week.



LOL, couldn't have put it any better, mate.

I'm glad you liked it.

 

[Tony]

Part 2-2 Conflicts and Dialogue (2)

[continuing Part 2-1 (Post #17)]

"Li Peng disagreed with my decision to hold a lively televised meeting with the student leaders popularly elected by the students. He thought that we should only meet the student leaders of the official student unions. That was meaningless, as everyone knows that they were just our appointees.​

The students had 5 demands. Revise the April 26 Editorial, objectively evaluate the student movement, recognise their (the student ledaers') legality, revoke the ban on their freedom of assembly, and fight corruption.​

The students were really patriotic and rational, and they greatly impressed me. I honestly told them the difficulty in revising the April 26 Editorial, but stated clearly that the government would follow the spirit of the May 4th Speech of Zhao, rather than the Editorial. And once the chance came, we would fix it.​

Also, with the promise of Zhao Ziyang, I told them we would propose an official end to laws restricting their civil liberties, including their freedom of assembly, during the 4th Plenary Session of the 13th Central Committee in June. Dialogue between them and the government shall continue, particularly concerning the establishment of an independent anti-corruption commission. Concerning the seemingly most difficult issue of recognition, I just told them the very fact - by meeting them, they have already been recognised.​

Though I wholeheartedly endorsed the soft approach of Zhao, I was actually rather afraid that Deng thought otherwise. We would never know, since [redacted]. This is the first time that I reveal this publicly, but the people have the right to know. To play safe, I actually had tried to reach Deng, who had just met Wan Li in person, before meeting the students. ​

Wang Ruilin, director of Deng's office, refused my booking. From Wang, I knew that Deng's health was deteriorating, and Deng himself was rather afraid that his meeting with Gorbachev would have to be cancelled.​

Luckily, I did not go and find Deng, and as a result Deng lived long enough to greet Gorbachev, making a giant step towards reconciliation with Soviety Russia [redacted]. You know, I've just read 1989 [7] - an excellent story of alternate history written by Newt Gingrich. Had I met Deng, things really may have turned out differently."
(Preface of the)Tiananmen Diaries by Yan Mingfu​

"Sometimes, I wonder if I was right to pull my fellow fighters out of the Tiananmen Square temporarily. At the time, I naively thought that we should give Mikhail Gorbachev some 'face', because we all want China to follow the direction of Gorbachev. ​

Immediately after the meeting with Yan Mingfu, we conducted a survey in the University of Peking. Half of them preferred to continue boycotting school, but at the same time 60% of them favoured a temporary withdrawal from the Tiananmen Square during Gorbachev's visit. As a student leader, I was elected by the students of the University of Peking to represent their views. Therefore my only choice was to instruct the remaining students who opted to stay, to leave the square for the time being."
- Towards a World without Secrets by Wang Dan [8]​

"...students did not go back to their campus, and protests in other cities except Shanghai and Beijing continued. Anyway, thanks to the success of the soft approach and Yan Mingfu's effort, things seemed to have been cooled down a bit in Beijing. On May 15, we greeted General Secretary Gorbachev in the Tiananmen Square. There were 'hecklers' in the welcoming ceremony, since the square was not thoroughly cleared. While Gorbachev was walking through the red carpet, we could very clearly hear students shouting, 'we love Gorbachev' and 'welcome home Gorbachev'."
- Critical Point by Yang Shangkun​

"On May 16, 1989, I met Deng Xiaoping. He was a man of wisdon, and arguably one of the most important people that shaped the 20th Century. Before my arrival, Deng was already there, waiting outside the main entrance of the East Lobby, the Great Hall of the People. At 10 am, I got off my car. Deng came forward to receive me. In front of cameras, we shoke hands for more than half a minute... We also briefly talked about the latest situation in Beijing. Deng told me that China was a unique nation, and would go its own direction. He firmly stated that China would not solely copy from my reforms... Zhao is a very different man. He was very idealistic, and rather Western-minded even in my sense. [redacted]"
- Mikhail Gorbachev: Memoirs by Mikhail S. Gorbachev

"On May 13, which was two days before Mikhail Gorbachev came to China, I went to Deng's apartment. Deng stated that once he met Gorbachev, the relationship between the two communist parties would immediately revive. ​

Virtually every politician in the world, inside or outside China knew that the meaning of the highest-level meeting with the Chinese leadership meant meeting Deng. But to play safe, in case some Communist ledaers did not understand; after the 13th National Congress, every time when I held bilateral talks with another foreign leader, I would automatically inform them the fact that Deng was the real leader of China so as to clear possible misunderstandings. During my visit to Pyongyong in April, I told Kim Il-sung exactly the same thing.​

Yet, this time I had to be very careful. Foreign Minister Qian Qichen asked me to skip this part. I agree with him, telling Gorbachev that Deng was the one behind the curtains may well mean a declaration of war at such a sensitive moment. I said what Qin Qichen told me to. I told Gorbachev that the relationship between our two communist parties had been restored, because we, the two respective general secretaries had met."[9]
- Journey of the Reforms by Zhao Ziyang​

[Above: Students protesting in Hangzhou, May 1989]​

May 19, 1989, somewhere in Beijing...​

Yao Yilin: "Seemingly, the soft approach of that SOB Zhao has won."
Li Peng: "It's not over yet. We cannot just let Zhao Ziyang win everything."
Chen Yun: "The health of Deng is deteriorating, but he would be the key of our success. Economically, he's a quasi-capitalist. But politically, I'm quite confident that he is still on our side. The protestors in Hangzhou are directing their criticism at Deng himself, and maybe we should just tell Deng."
General Liu Huaqing: "I don't care. We must do something to protect the people's republic. Beijing is stable now, but the protests in other cities continue. We cannot let those Western-inspired counterrevolutionaries succeed. The fruits of revolution must be safeguarded."
Yao Yilin: "Then what can we do?"
Chen Yun: "Trust me, Deng is on our side. Let's meet him first."​

Japan foreign minister quits in fresh blow to PM [10]
Friday, May 19, 1989

TOKYO(Reuters) - Japanese Foreign Minister Sosuke Uno resigned on Thursday amid a sex scandal, after the Shanghai-based World Economic Herald revealed that the Japanese foreign minister bought sexual favors from geisha girls; adding to embattled Prime Minister Noboru Takeshita's troubles as he fights to keep his own job.​

Last month, Takeshita conceded that over the years he and others close to him received nearly $1 million from Recruit. Referring to his October disclaimer, Takeshita pleaded a faulty memory: "I probably did not have a clear recollection of the matter then."​

In the wake of the Prime Minister's latest disclosures, opposition members have already intensified their demands that he step down. To his critics, Takeshita declared, "I have no intention of taking a quick way out of this crisis."​

Though Takeshita appeared determined to grit through the crisis, the spreading scandal -- the country's most pervasive in modern times -- may yet topple his Liberal Democratic Party government, much as a series of financial misdeeds brought down Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka in 1974.​

Since Recruit's involvement in influence peddling among the political bigwigs first came to light in the press last June, 20 people have been forced to resign, including three members of Takeshita's Cabinet. The separate scandal of Uno and his subsequent resignation is surely a stunning fresh blow to the government of Nobusuke Takeshita. Some ruling party MPs have already requested his resignation, fearing that Takeshita would lead the party to a crushing defeat in the upper house election in July.​

The former geisha whose tales of infidelity brought down Japan's foreign minister said today she cried tears of happiness when she saw Sosuke Uno announce his resignation on nationwide television. "Victory at last," was Mitsuko Nakanishi's first reaction when Uno told the nation Friday he would resign. "Tears came running down. I felt like an athlete who just won a game."​

The Japanese are highly sensitive to their image abroad, and Uno would likely be regarded as a laughingstock among his counterparts.​

[7] In OTL, Newt Gingrich wrote a book called 1945. Also, Wang Ruilin did tell Zhao (but not Yan) that Deng's health was deteriorating.​

[8] In OTL, the student leaders conducted a survey in the University of Peking on May 9, where 60% of students favoured continuing the boycott of classes. Also, in OTL, Wang Dan was one of the very first student ledaers to start off a hunger strike. Yet, before getting impatient due to the Government's ignorance of the demand to meet the students, Wang and Wuer Kaixi, due to their appreciation of Mikhail Gorbachev, indeed suggested the students to consider leaving the Square so that Gorbachev could be welcomed in the Tiananmen Square, in case the meeting with government officials could be held with positive results. However, getting increasingly impatient, they would begin the grand hunger strike on May 13 in OTL.​

In TTL, due to the success of the meeting with Yan Mingfu, Wang Dan agreed that students should temporarily leave the Tiananmen Square. As a result, Gorbachev was welcomed not at the airport, but in Tiananmen.​

Also, despite that I appreciate him very much, indeed far more than any other student leaders, Wang Dan would play the role of an infamous Australian in OTL. In TTL, as of September 2010, before his arrest in Seoul, Wang Dan was the most wanted person in China and the United States. Guess which Australian I mean from the title of Wang Dan's book I quote in TTL​

[9] In OTL, Zhao told Gorbachev in front of Western and Chinese media that Deng was the one behind the scene, and the Politburo had to consult Deng when handling important affairs after the 13th National Congress. Zhao claimed in his memoirs that his intention was to help Deng rather than to embarrass him, and Zhao admitted that the Foreign Ministry had advised him not to clearly identify the fact that Deng was behind everything.​

[10] Totally unrelated to Tiananmen. In OTL, the sex scadal surrounding Sosuke Uno would not be revealed after he became Prime Minister of Japan in June 1989, following the resignation of Noboru Takeshita.​

Due to butterflies that I would explain later when I talk about Japan, the scandal was revealed earlier than in OTL, and as a result the prime ministry of Sosuke Uno would be butterflied away.​

OOC: Honestly, I begin to feel a bit daunting and unhappy when I find out what is going on here. I can happily accept the opinions of NFR, seemingly a fellow Hong Konger. If you go back to Page 2, our open conversatoin was rather rational and friendly. As a conversation, it lasted for just a few posts. Constructive criticisms help me improve, and so I have to thank him.​

Then when I went to bed due to the difference in time zone, someone began trolling here. I decided that I should not give any response until my next update. After that guy was kicked, another person intentionally revived the trolls. The best way out is to ignore him. I and some of you here had him reported, but seemingly the war goes on.​

Though I admit that I do share mcdo's views in your preceding debate, I cannot say that 2 trollers are totally wrong. I really have to bear some responsibilities. Due to my poor English and poor range of vocabularies, I may have misused the word "civilization" in my preface, which may have become a catalyst of the trolls. I will fix it tomorrow after HKT16:00 (GMT 08:00) when I can use a computer. If your find that I've used a wrong word or have any other spelling mistakes, feel free to tell me here or PM me.​

Accordingly, I would like to make a sincere request to all of you here. Please stop feeding the troll. Ignore those trollers, then they would leave us alone. Let us move on and look forward.​

And John Fredrick Parker and Gosing, don't worry, I won't let such nonsense stop this timeline​

Next Update scheduled on 07:30 (GMT), April 20
Part 3 The May 27th Coup
(May 20 - May 30, 1989)​

 

[Hendryk]

The pics really add something to the TL. The late 1980s are within living memory for several of us, but the grainy photos make them look like a distant era.

 

[historybuff]

Getting very interesting. Wonder what's up next. Good thing things are settling down.

 

[AH.edwoo]

@tonykwok

I'll be blunt. I don't agree with your views. But I really resent the notion that I must be trolling just because you don't like my views. If you noticed, I river crabbed my own post in order to let your TL get back on track.