A Slavic country considered Nordic

at least in my opinion there aren't really a whole lot of debate about that Estonians are probably closest to be seen as a Nordic country (since they have the ties needed historically with Denmark and Sweden, and linguisticly with Finland), but they're allready solidly in the box labeled Baltic, which have a couple of distinct different issues than the rest of the Nordic countries have (although there is a certain amount of overlap between Estonia and Finland, in both directions).
 
General Tirpitz I meant "Racial" as in a distinctive cultural grouping. Certainly NOT implying any form of superiority.
 
I still assume that they are more closely related than any Finnish dialect is to Swedish ones. Or maybe we could add Germany as a Scandinavian country, there's nothing inherently different in that nation from any Nordic one.
Yes there is! Germans are much nicer and more well behaved than the rude, rowdy and generally misbehaving Scandinavians. That is my impression, but I might be wrong. (I live in Sweden.)

Scandinavians are more egalitarian. I think Germans are more hierarchic, but that I do not know.

No, that's how "Nordic" is defined quite simply.
But then it is only an empty label. I want to find out the truth concerning cultures.

I have noticed Finns often seem to be more authoritarian than other Norther Europeans and generally are more nationalist; maybe Finns are actually Eastern European?
Norwegians are very nationalistic. In Sweden we are immensely proud of not being nationalistic. :rolleyes:

Truth to be told, these regional groupings are pretty much random and trying to make sense of them doesn't work, especially using sweeping stereotypes. What matter is where people living in one country define themselves belonging and do other people in that grouping also think that they belong there. As I mentioned, it took few decades before Finns were accepted as a Nordic country in other countries and you could still find writings from the early 20th century how Finns are essentially different from other Northern Europeans.
Back then, the racial scientists claimed that Finns were East Asians, but then they went to Finland, and wondered where the Finns were, since they only saw Swedes ...
 

Avskygod0

Banned
"Scandinavia" is defined as the three countries that share the same system of government, constitutional monarchy, and muturally comprehensible languages.

"Nordic" is a more flexible term, including the two incomprehensible republics, Finland and Iceland. It is not impossible for countries such as Estonia or to become Nordic countries in time, if they desire it, but they could not become Scandinavian.

Some Finns insist that Finland is a Scandinavian country, but it is a fairly lonely opinion.

Well, Finland geographically is on Greater Scandinavia, so it isn't really weird. But so has Russia have a part on Greater Scandinavia
 
Yes there is! Germans are much nicer and more well behaved than the rude, rowdy and generally misbehaving Scandinavians. That is my impression, but I might be wrong. (I live in Sweden.)

Scandinavians are more egalitarian. I think Germans are more hierarchic, but that I do not know.

In my experience Swedes are also much more happier, emotional and talkative than Finns on average. Finns OTOH like often think that we are very similar to Germans in our ways. I have also personally found that there's also eerily similarities between Finnish and Japanese cultures. But that's just highly unscientific anecdotal evidence which doesn't really prove anything

But then it is only an empty label.

Yes. :p So?

Back then, the racial scientists claimed that Finns were East Asians, but then they went to Finland, and wondered where the Finns were, since they only saw Swedes ...

There's a story how some Nazi German "scientist" came to Finland to study Mongoloid characteristics among Finns but become utterly shocked when he found that Finns had more "Aryan" features than Germans. :p
 
In Nordic countries North Europe is often understood as a synonym for Nordic countries, thus many Finns don't consider Estonia or the UK as "Northern European" for example.

Something I've noticed is that 'Northern Europe/North Europe' is one of the least defined regions, I've seen definitions ranging from just the Nordic countries, to them plus Britain and Ireland to those plus the Low countries to the latter including Germany.


What traits do Swedes and Norwegians have in common that Finns do not? :confused: (I am curious.) And do not mention language. There were several mutually incomprehensible North Germanic dialects in Sweden and Norway.

With the exception of some minority populations, Norwegians, Swedes and Danes all speak dialects of a single language, just like Americans, Britons, Irish, Australians, Canadians, South Africans etc. all speak dialects of English; the only real linguistic differences I can think of is that the letter ash is written as Æ in all but Swedish, while the Swedes use Ä, however that aside, while there may be some issues with accents, Swedes, Danes and Norwegians (well, the majority atleast, the minority who insist on Nynorsk have more difficulties in writing) can all understand each others standard (and thus the majority form) language dialect; actually now that I think about it Scanidnavian (as in the language which the national languages are all dialects of, similar to Serbo-Croatian) is probably somewhere between the differences between the English dialects and the Iberian languages.

Aside from language they share common ancestry groups and they've generally been part of the same polity alot (Iceland and Norway have been part of Denmark and Sweden and then the Kalmar Union).

As I said though, similarities are not universal, there are different levels, and the Scandinavian identity is simply a sub-grouping of the Nordic identity, they're not exclusive.
 
Nordic countries (Norden, Pohjoismaat) are commonly understood to consist Sweden, Iceland, Denmark, Finland and Norway and that's the way how it's usually taught even schools, at least in Finland. In Nordic countries North Europe is often understood as a synonym for Nordic countries, thus many Finns don't consider Estonia or the UK as "Northern European" for example.
Then why isn't Estonia, which is almost entirely to the north of Denmark not considered Nordic?
 
Somewhere along the way, the Volga Basin Russian principalities are destroyed by the Mongols or Tatars. Novgorod, which survives, goes on to play a greater role in the Baltic Sea Region, the White Sea, and the Gulf of Finland. Over time, it comes to be considered a Nordic society with a Slavic language.
 
Somewhere along the way, the Volga Basin Russian principalities are destroyed by the Mongols or Tatars. Novgorod, which survives, goes on to play a greater role in the Baltic Sea Region, the White Sea, and the Gulf of Finland. Over time, it comes to be considered a Nordic society with a Slavic language.
Perhaps it has to become Lutheran as well, but that might be a small change.
 
On the other hand, if Sweden had played the Napoleonic wars differently, and had ended up with possession of Latvia, Estonia and Ingria, then Petersburg would be Swedish. Its current (2014) population might be much lower than OTL, though, so it might no longer have a numerous Russian-speaking population.
 
Somewhere along the way, the Volga Basin Russian principalities are destroyed by the Mongols or Tatars. Novgorod, which survives, goes on to play a greater role in the Baltic Sea Region, the White Sea, and the Gulf of Finland. Over time, it comes to be considered a Nordic society with a Slavic language.

There was a website with a guy who created a fourth eastern slav language based on the Novgorod dialect, that could be linked to this thread here - have those Novgory(?) guys an holding in the northwest of modern Russia...
 
What traits do Swedes and Norwegians have in common that Finns do not? :confused: (I am curious.) And do not mention language. There were several mutually incomprehensible North Germanic dialects in Sweden and Norway.

Don't mention language? Are you under the assumption Finnish is a North Germanic language? It isn't. Finnish is not even an Indo-European language; it is Uralic. There is no connection between the Finnish language and the North Germanic languages.

Culturally the Finns are different from Scandinavians. Norse and Finnish mythology are totally different. Finns generally lagged behind the Scandinavians technologically (iron age, agriculture) and culturally (law, government) - primarily because of their greater distance from the Classical World. Of course, the Finns were brought into the Nordic cultural sphere, but there are substantial differences between them as ethnicities.
 
What about some Polish coast area is ruled by Swedes. When theSwedes pull out, the local Slavs are shaped by the Swedes, with Swedish similar to how it was in Finland.
 
Then why isn't Estonia, which is almost entirely to the north of Denmark not considered Nordic?

Well, the Estonians are trying very hard to get the world to see them as "Nordic" instead of "Baltic". Part of this is cultural - Estonian is related to Finnish, not any Baltic language. Part of this is "branding" - Nordic countries are seen as more successful, more competent, more Western than Baltic. Most probably has to do with fear of Russia - by emphasizing its ties to the core West, Estonia will be seen as less exotic, and therefore less likely to be abandoned by the West in case Russia becomes aggressive again.

There has even been support to change the Estonian flag from a tricolour to a Nordic Cross design.

Whether Estonia is a "Nordic" or a "Baltic" country really depends on perception of others. Finland was not considered a Nordic country until after the 1930s. Finland escaped being annexed or controlled by the Soviet Union, so outsiders classed it as Nordic rather than "Baltic" (which became the term for those countries formerly part of the Russian Empire which were forcibly joined to the Soviet Union). If the Soviet annexations had never happened, it is possible Finland might still be considered to be "Baltic" instead of of "Nordic" today. So it is entirely possible that within 20-30 years, Estonian may be able to convince people they are indeed Nordic.
 
Don't mention language? Are you under the assumption Finnish is a North Germanic language? It isn't. Finnish is not even an Indo-European language; it is Uralic. There is no connection between the Finnish language and the North Germanic languages.

Culturally the Finns are different from Scandinavians. Norse and Finnish mythology are totally different. Finns generally lagged behind the Scandinavians technologically (iron age, agriculture) and culturally (law, government) - primarily because of their greater distance from the Classical World. Of course, the Finns were brought into the Nordic cultural sphere, but there are substantial differences between them as ethnicities.
I know that the languages (and histories) are different, since I do live in this part of the world. My point is that there might be a Scandinavian/Nordic behavioral pattern that is more or less common around here, but contrasting with neighboring lands. If so, it would be possible to find the objective extent of cultural Scandinavia, instead of only hearing about everyone's opinions.

Now, if the differences between Finns and Swedes (and the rest) are substantial, as you state above - what are they?
 
There was a website with a guy who created a fourth eastern slav language based on the Novgorod dialect, that could be linked to this thread here - have those Novgory(?) guys an holding in the northwest of modern Russia...

Certainly doable, but seems to be more of an effect than a cause.
 
Now, if the differences between Finns and Swedes (and the rest) are substantial, as you state above - what are they?

Alot of the differences culturally have begun to disappear over the last 50 years, but one big one I can think of is that the Finns are very big on being On Time (don't be late, but don't be early either) and the whole being sort of strict with separating their work relationships from their personal relationships, that and being portrayed as stoic, semi-psychotic drunks. :p
 
Top