EdT said:
Did Russia win in the Middle East (hence no Ottoman Empire), but not in Europe then?
EdT said:
Is the 'China Free State' a French puppet state?
"A Shot Heard Around the World" Teaser (map)
- Thread starter EdT
- Start date
Did Russia win in the Middle East (hence no Ottoman Empire), but not in Europe then?
Is the 'China Free State' a French puppet state?
As for Austria-Hungary; well, my course of events is not neccesarily the most likely outcome, which problably would involve some sort of absorbtion of the Austrian part of the Empire by Germany. On the other hand, OTL's history doesn't always take the most plausible route either!
I freely admit that I've got a bit of a soft spot for the Hapsburgs, and in this TL they do roll quite a lot of 6's in the critical inter-war period (the incompetence of the Hungarian rebels is one example of this-although personally I think that given the people I've got involved in it a degree of idiocy is inevitable). On the other hand, OTL it took 4 years of appalling warfare and hardship for A-H to collapse- here it has a short although occasionally embarassing war, with none of the food shortages etc that took place in 1914-1918. I agree things have to come to a head sooner or later, but the way I have them happen removes the largest single obstacle to reform (i.e Hungary) for long enough that it has to accept the post-1925 fait accompli.
In this TL I expect the success of the Hungarian revolt would be a popular PoD though, especially if there's a feeling that the new Hungarian state might align itself with the Russians.
I freely admit that I've got a bit of a soft spot for the Hapsburgs, and in this TL they do roll quite a lot of 6's in the critical inter-war period (the incompetence of the Hungarian rebels is one example of this-although personally I think that given the people I've got involved in it a degree of idiocy is inevitable). On the other hand, OTL it took 4 years of appalling warfare and hardship for A-H to collapse- here it has a short although occasionally embarassing war, with none of the food shortages etc that took place in 1914-1918. I agree things have to come to a head sooner or later, but the way I have them happen removes the largest single obstacle to reform (i.e Hungary) for long enough that it has to accept the post-1925 fait accompli.
In this TL I expect the success of the Hungarian revolt would be a popular PoD though, especially if there's a feeling that the new Hungarian state might align itself with the Russians.
George Carty said:
Well, Russia was certainly more successful in that theatre. On the other hand, an Allied victory would be unlikely to see the restoration of the Ottoman Empire- the British have been planning for such an occurance for getting on for twenty years by the time it finally happens, and have plenty of plans for the post-Ottoman Middle East. That said, so do the Russians...
George Carty said:
Nope, one thing I should have added to the map is that Indochina is the _Republic of Indochina_. If the Free State is anyone's puppet it would be Britain's- however it is more genuinely independent then the Chinese Republic, Manhukuo or the Reformed Republic.
Pax Britannia said:
Thanks! Like I said before, I always wanted to come back to ASHATW and tie up some loose ends. I haven't gone over the end of the war and post-war peace in quite the same detail as the rest of the TL (I've got a degree to get after all
) but it is there in outline and I may expand on it later. The revised version should be up on Sunday if all goes according to plan- I'll let the board know. Oh yes, and one final teaser- the Middle East, circa 1950... (note the small print btw
)Very interesting Indeed. Egypt and Sudan have gained Independence yet it seems India is still under British rule.
Pax Britannia - Could be, or it could be that I decided to use the British colour for India as it it's a Dominion, while Egypt is officially independent but under strong British influence. A Nasser equivalent remains unlikely in the ASHATW-verse post-war era- or if one existed he probably wouldn't last long in power.
Spartan - Something else happened . Greece picks up that chunk of western Anotolia in 1941 when a Russian invasion of Turkey causes the Ottoman Empire to collapse. Understandably the Turks aren't best pleased, and the region remains a serious potential flashpoint- complicated still further by Greek claims on Eastern Thrace and Bulgrian designs on Salonika.
As the alt-WW1 went completely differently (Greece fought on the side of the Central Powers against Serbia for a start) the treaty of Sevres doesn't happen, or anything remotely like it. What this means for Venizelos I'm really not sure- it could butterfly away the conflict with Constantine I suppose although I'm no expert in Greek history. More likely they have disputes, but with less serious consequences for the country. I'd expect Greece to remain a monarchy in this TL on balance.
Spartan - Something else happened
. Greece picks up that chunk of western Anotolia in 1941 when a Russian invasion of Turkey causes the Ottoman Empire to collapse. Understandably the Turks aren't best pleased, and the region remains a serious potential flashpoint- complicated still further by Greek claims on Eastern Thrace and Bulgrian designs on Salonika. As the alt-WW1 went completely differently (Greece fought on the side of the Central Powers against Serbia for a start) the treaty of Sevres doesn't happen, or anything remotely like it. What this means for Venizelos I'm really not sure- it could butterfly away the conflict with Constantine I suppose although I'm no expert in Greek history. More likely they have disputes, but with less serious consequences for the country. I'd expect Greece to remain a monarchy in this TL on balance.
The maps are great.
The collapse of the Ottomans is less so. If John were here, I'm sure he'd have some strong comments about it. But for a wonder he isn't, so I'll just say it strikes me as fairly unlikely. Not a problem - we've seen much worse.
Moving on, the most reasonable way I could see this happening is a Russian occupation of Constantinople and a lot of Anatolia. At some point the caliphate is probably either forcibly abolished or the house of Osman wiped out. None of that is too unreasonable (assuming the war lasts long enough) and it ought to be plenty of impetus for the southern regions to go their own way.
That still doesn't explain how Greece is holding on to that much of Anatolia. The area would have had an overwhelming Muslim majority when they took the place (though by now it would be pretty well cleansed) and even if the Greeks just wanted a colony, I'm not sure quite how they would have the strength to take it. It would be unpleasant work and I doubt the Hellens could do it alone.
The collapse of the Ottomans is less so. If John were here, I'm sure he'd have some strong comments about it. But for a wonder he isn't, so I'll just say it strikes me as fairly unlikely. Not a problem - we've seen much worse.
Moving on, the most reasonable way I could see this happening is a Russian occupation of Constantinople and a lot of Anatolia. At some point the caliphate is probably either forcibly abolished or the house of Osman wiped out. None of that is too unreasonable (assuming the war lasts long enough) and it ought to be plenty of impetus for the southern regions to go their own way.
That still doesn't explain how Greece is holding on to that much of Anatolia. The area would have had an overwhelming Muslim majority when they took the place (though by now it would be pretty well cleansed) and even if the Greeks just wanted a colony, I'm not sure quite how they would have the strength to take it. It would be unpleasant work and I doubt the Hellens could do it alone.
Admiral Matt said:
Well, that's pretty much what I envisage happening. The main cause of the Ottoman collapse isn't the Russian army pressing through the Caucauses, but rather the Russian marines and airborne troops who have been landed in Constantinople and at strategic points along the Black Sea coast. That, combined with the general Ottoman unpreparedness for war, causes an Ottoman surrender- which shouldn't be confused with a cessation of violence in the region, just the collapse of the government in Constantinople. I assume that the British, Germans etc will support the emergence of a "Free Turkish" government based somewhere in central or southern Anatolia that will continue resistance. This is all in the context of a general European war, so British troops will be moving in and trying to restore a semblance of order pretty quickly- it helps that they have a bunch of friendly Hashemites ready to install in Syria and Mesoptamia. Fighting will also definately continue in Anatolia as the Turkish successor-state tries to stave off the Russian advance there. They will also be joined by Greek and Bulgarian troops 'restoring order' (i.e opportunistically grabbing what they can) in the West.
Which brings me to Greece. I tried to give them pretty much what I remember them claiming in OTL western Anatolia-wise, as I thought that given the general confusion and a swift Greek reaction they might be able to gain quite a lot of ground. OTL's population 'exchanges' won't have happened (although doubtless they will in the mid 40's ATL) so there will plenty of Greeks around- albeit persumably concentrated in the towns and cities on the coast. I don't think they'll find holding this ground easy- quite the reverse, I expect the majority of the Greek army to be engaged in pacification/ethnic cleansing for most of the rest of the war, let alone into the 40's and 50's. It won't be very pretty, that's for sure- and as the small print at the bottom of the map says, the border will remain deeply disputed. I'll do a bit of digging- if I think the border's exagerated and reaches too much into the Anatolian hinterland I'll retcon it westwards a bit.
Pax Britannia said:
Well, there's certainly no real Imperial Federation or anything if that's what you mean. Britain is far stronger then OTL, as it's only had to fight one world war rather then two- so I'm thinking an expanded and enhanced Commonwealth. Think of a mix between the political/development aspects of the UN, the Economic integration of the EU and the military aspects of NATO and you're probably just about there- although it doubtless would be more complicated then that. Should be interesting as Britain's power gradually declines over time relative to that of the "New Dominions" like India...
EdT said:
Thats always been my view. A stronger commonwealth is an interesting concept.