A Short History of the Australiërs.

I agree with Pompejus on this one; I'd like to see a TL where the Cape remains Dutch.

BTW Trinidad and Tobago, though rich, would be controlled by the WIC (West-Indische Compagnie = Dutch West India Company).

I know this is silly of course but weren't they Spanish at this point and since Spain is either an ally of the French or neutral, why are they part of the package.

While valuable they are rather under developed until the arrival of French planters during the Napoleonic War.
 
Quick question: Is the USA going to be be butterflied away by this? It seems like it would make a natural ally for the would be republic in Australia.
 
I know this is silly of course but weren't they Spanish at this point and since Spain is either an ally of the French or neutral, why are they part of the package.

While valuable they are rather under developed until the arrival of French planters during the Napoleonic War.

In a word butterflies, they were given to Britain as part of a a slightly alt War of the Spanish Succession. They are less under developed than OTL as there as been some British settlement in the last 30 years but it was partly chosen because of all the British Caribbean islands it has the smallest British population, also its proximity to Curaçao.

Quick question: Is the USA going to be be butterflied away by this? It seems like it would make a natural ally for the would be republic in Australia.

The USA as we know it will not happen, a post colonial state in North America....
 
Like the time line....but some points.

As pointed by JanPrimus, the Dutch would not trade the cape for sugar flint colonies in the West Indies. The VOC does not had any business there and the VOC had far more influence over this kind of state affair then the always financial crippled West Indian Company, which went bust once before. So very unlikely that they hand over the Cape before the end of the 18th century. Even in OTL the British tend to give it back to the Dutch when Napoleon was finally gone, which would happen if the Dutch were more enthusiastic for it. and when they took it, the paid a nice compensation for.

The cape colony was not that big, there was plenty of room at the Southern tip of the African continent for an other refreshing station, like the British did in OTL with Natal.

I also think the VOC had more interested in a "European" colony close to Batavia for the production of food as you described in the 17th century. Pieterz. Coen was one of the propagandist of a Calvinist colony as a base for expansion in Asia. The VOC thought to have this in Taiwan, but later left this policy.

An other thing, since there is a small colony, would this not trigger a VOC governor to sent out an expedition to find out if Australia was one large continent or a huge island? Like Van Diemen ordered to Abel Tasman,( but he screwed up)? And would they not send again an expedition to New Zeeland, just to look again if there is trade with the ''savages'' is possible?
 
Like the time line....but some points.

As pointed by JanPrimus, the Dutch would not trade the cape for sugar flint colonies in the West Indies...

I clearly misrepresented the deal, this is not a straight trade and its not a Dutch idea. This is a small part of a comprehensive peace treaty involving five major powers in which most of the focus is on Europe. The Dutch have secured Flanders from the Austrians which is massive gain and the non-European parts of the peace treaty are being mainly negotiated with Britain, which unlike Austria and Prussia hasn't lost. As far as the Anglo-Dutch component of the conflict this has been a victory for Britain with successes in India, the capture of the Cape, very damaging raids on Ceylon, Java and New Holland and a couple of naval victories. With Britain already in control of the Cape and the English Channel secure this is a case of Britain agreeing to hand over Trinidad as a face saving exercise.

The cape colony was not that big, there was plenty of room at the Southern tip of the African continent for an other refreshing station, like the British did in OTL with Natal.

Yes, but the cape is already established and the natives already pacified, making it much more preferable from British point of view and with the added advantage that it weakens the VOC.

I also think the VOC had more interested in a "European" colony close to Batavia for the production of food as you described in the 17th century. Pieterz. Coen was one of the propagandist of a Calvinist colony as a base for expansion in Asia.

They have established a Calvinist settler colony and while it was set up by accident the VOC and Dutch government supported it for its initial period, and have continued to by using as a base for many of the VOC's activities in the Asia-Pacific region. It is a major provider of food and goods such as hemp (vital in the age of sail for ropes), wool, leather and other basic goods. New Holland is doing everything that Coen wanted.
While New Holland's growth rate has been pretty pathetic compared to the British North American colonies but they are the exception not the rule. New Holland is only growing it a bit slower than the more important and closer Cape Colony which is a sign of the effort that is being put into it. However you can't around the sheer distance. Australia is called the Antipodes for a reason and was a year long voyage from Europe at this point. We really are the arse end of the world and I would say that if anything I have been way too optimistic about New Holland's growth rate.

An other thing, since there is a small colony, would this not trigger a VOC governor to sent out an expedition to find out if Australia was one large continent or a huge island? Like Van Diemen ordered to Abel Tasman,( but he screwed up)? And would they not send again an expedition to New Zeeland, just to look again if there is trade with the ''savages'' is possible?

Already happened.

1731: On his third journey of exploration Captain van der Valk circumnavigates the continent surveying the coast up to the already known Janszoon Peninsular [Cape York Peninsular] in some detail.

There has been some contact with both the Maori and east coast Aboriginals but there is little trade as neither has much to offer the other. Dutch maps show Oceania with a level of detail that would not be reached in OTL till the 1810's and have a matching level of general knowledge of the region.

Naturally the VOC's secretive nature means less is known by everyone else but both the British and French have sent expeditions and while behind the Dutch are far ahead of OTL.


I've had a lot of uni work but should be able to get the next update up tonight.
 
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If the Austrians and Prussians are defeated then generally so is Britain... they will generally return to a status quo peace or a peace with only minor changes or they hazard Brunswick-Luneburg, of which the King is Elector to French or French allied occupation.

It is the way it always has been.

What really bothers me though is why the Dutch, a maritime power whose goal has always been to thwart the French gaining control of the Southern Netherlands and therefore maintaining a buffer by another Great power between themselves and the French because they by themselves are incapable of withstanding a concerted French onslaught by themselves should they ever share a border in common. They are allied with France? or merely co-belligerents. The Dutch Republic is incapable of ejecting the Austrians by themselves and will have required substantial ( read more armies than they themselves have) to accomplish that task from the French to do so.

Why have the Bourbons long desirous of removing the Hapsburgs from their northern border and bringing those areas either directly or indirectly within the Bourbon sphere of influence suddenly forgoing that opportunity.

A war against the Hapsburgs on the continent to place their candidate on the Saxon throne, they defeat Prussia AND Austria and they obtain none of the Austrian Netherlands? The latter is far more important to the Bourbons than the former. Though the former is indeed a most convenient avenue to attempt to obtain the latter. Are the Swedes, Danes or Russians also allies? Obviously Spain must figure in there somewhere as well.

Indeed they have defeated both German powers securing succession in Saxony to their candidate which implies their armies in Germany itself are victorious and Brunswick-Luneburg if not over-run already is is surely in danger of it at the French leisure.

i think there are details missing that would provide a clearer picture.

BTW in the Wof SS
the French islands are far more valuable and numerous ( all of the Windward Islands in fact except Barbados) for the British than lowly Trinidad and Tobago

Do you suddenly have a Bourbon Stadtholder or something? This peace is simply going to make the Dutch republic a puppet of France.

obviously you have a lot of butterflies flapping, and you probably need to flesh out exactly where they are...which is why you are getting so many questions.
 
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Das_Colonel

Banned
I obviously can't get into too many details but suffice to say one of my major aims of this tl is to make *Australian history much more interesting than otl. This isn't just going to be otl Australia but speaking Dutch and settled earlier.

I live in Australia and despite being a pom love the country but no country has as dull and uneventful story as Australia. No civil wars, no invasions, no Little Big Horns or Isandlwanas, no contesting colonial powers, no coups, nothing. Even New Zealand had the Land Wars.
The biggest political controversy is the Whitlam sacking, an event that was really pretty minor by international standards. The biggest attacks on Australia is either the arrival of the First Fleet or the Japanese bombing of Darwin which was on such a tiny scale that it doesn't make it into most histories.

1788 was an invasion. From a certain point of view :cool:
 
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