A Shift in Priorities

Status
Not open for further replies.
¡ Hi ! ¡ SMELLS LIKE VICTORY !:D:):D:).

As for myself, so many posibilities, and for start:

1.-For the american army:
A)A total " open their eyes " situation, because this lose/defeat is time to change all that don´t work in the army.
B)A total disaster scenario: for total victory to total defeat, the games of guilties and blames will it be epic:eek:, and if can more and less justified the losses in the TAW, now how can explain a lose in a very closed ground, with relative capacity for obtain stocks, troops, etc...

2.-For politics, now will see a total chaos of blames and acusations between the diverse sections, areas of the american´s goverment:eek:.

3.-For common citizens, they belived and trust in this administration, and now this situation, what other secret, plot are hidden the McAdoo´s administration, and maybe now beginning to suspect that the economy are in deep s...;).

4.-I wonder how the american news, press and Hearts will be saying, reporting andout this disaster, what i try to say is that for a very long time are telling that are in the road for a victory,and in a short period time are losening the conflict.
 
5.-For México, the day after the " big party ";):D, the posibilites are:
A)Working for reconstruction for the next decades:eek:.
B)Cárdenas and Calles because their intelligence, will, energy, heart, maybe and say maybe it be creating a mexican´s powerfully nation:cool:.
C)Now in peace, the mutual distrust, hate between Cardenas and Calles start again, ending in some bloody confrontation, exille, etc...:(.
CH)After the victory, México inner collapse because the drugs lords, the fights between mexican politicians, the number of poors, the severe destruction, etc.., in short after the winning as usual in mexican´s history ocurr some civil war, ¡ oh tragic irony: internal defeat after supreme victory !:eek::(.
D)Maybe EVEG it be the ultimate winner: The goverment working in the reconstruction process, less and less poor because education, food, works,etc..., as sucesfully dinamic middle class,etc... but the really rich, powerfully, masters and lord for México in the next decades: EVEG;):eek::(:eek:, in any way will see...

Peace and good luck:).
 
Well, Central and Southern Mexico are probably free . . . The US will probably keep Northern Mexico.

And it'll probably be awhile before they can successfully rebuild. Because of those expelled people there's going to be a bit of a population burden, on top of whatever damages were caused to their lands by the war itself. And they would be extensive.

While the drug trade will be a nifty source of income, that comes with a LOT of disadvantages as well. Drug warlords and shit.

If they aren't careful, and they probably won't be, they could end up poorly developed overall. A somewhat impoverished nation, fueled by drugs, that might see more attention paid to buying up weapons and catering to the whims of drug barons than actually helping it's people.

-----------------

I'd also be somewhat curious how long their drug trade advantages would last if homegrown groups brought real competition and aggresively fucked with those working with Mexican suppliers. (Disgruntled Grunts, those black gangs. Probably see shit crop up overseas.)

The US is obviously going to run headlong into it's own economic problems soon . . . But I think the Mexicans are going to be suffering more.

And that if it comes down to both sides rebuilding for another go . . . Bye bye, Mexico.

-------------------

And someone mentioned Canada. I still think it's possible through Churchill's machinations to eventually see a more or less peaceful annexation ala OTL's Anschluss.

Only TTL, I don't see America being conquered and Canada returned to sovereignty.
 
Well, Central and Southern Mexico are probably free . . . The US will probably keep Northern Mexico.

Sonora and Baja, I suppose. Not as much as they originally planned.

And it'll probably be awhile before they can successfully rebuild. Because of those expelled people there's going to be a bit of a population burden, on top of whatever damages were caused to their lands by the war itself. And they would be extensive.

Expelled people do not necesarily prohibit reconstruction, as can be seen in Germany after WWII. An important factor on the plus side ITTL is that whoever fights against the US can probably be assured for substantial European and Mittelafrikan support. Some kind of Marshal-plan is definitely possible.

While the drug trade will be a nifty source of income, that comes with a LOT of disadvantages as well. Drug warlords and shit.

If they aren't careful, and they probably won't be, they could end up poorly developed overall. A somewhat impoverished nation, fueled by drugs, that might see more attention paid to buying up weapons and catering to the whims of drug barons than actually helping it's people.

that surely is a possibility. And IOTL it is the most likely one. ITTL, though, I think there are many in Europe which would want to avoid this to get a valuable ally against a possible rematch of the US. And if EVEG really is investing heavily in Mexico and Mittelamerika, they'll have an interest in a stable and prosperous Mexico which can defend their investments against the US - something they do not consider in many of their other areas of investment.

I'd also be somewhat curious how long their drug trade advantages would last if homegrown groups brought real competition and aggresively fucked with those working with Mexican suppliers. (Disgruntled Grunts, those black gangs. Probably see shit crop up overseas.)

On the short-term, drugs will provide a lot of money for Mexico. If Mexican drug trade ends on the long-term, it can only be beneficial for the state and the society as a whole, as you pointed out correctly.

And that if it comes down to both sides rebuilding for another go . . . Bye bye, Mexico.

Depends. If it's only Mexico against the US, you're of course right. If the Europeans see Mexico as a bulwark in the Americas and support it accordingly, we might see TAWII fought over Mexico as well, maybe with European expeditionary corps on Mexican soil. That would be something different - although a large scale invasion and occupation of the US is out of question, obviously.

And someone mentioned Canada. I still think it's possible through Churchill's machinations to eventually see a more or less peaceful annexation ala OTL's Anschluss.

Possible yes, yet it gets more and more unlikely. If the US were victorious, peaceful and prosperous, and Britain was Soviet-like, the idea of an Anschluss would be more appealing. With the Great Depression coming soon and being even greater than IOTL that will not be the case for years.
 
You are fools to believe in learning something from your own experience. I prefer learning from mistakes made by others in order to avoid own blunder.
(Otto von Bismarck)

Strolling through the ruins that once had been Ciudad de México, Colonel Erich von Manstein meticulously tried to discern between damage caused by ground fighting and devastation due to US strategic bombing. Because he officially was a volunteer, he wore Mexican uniform; and because his Spanish was rather poor, he was accompanied by an interpreter. Experience acquired in the first few days had taught him that a female interpreter was what he needed; a woman at his side kept away the flocks of whores otherwise invariably attracted by his uniform. One could do nothing against the ubiquitous chores of begging children, but at least the omnipresent prostitutes could thus be deterred.

Dolores del Rio was the prettiest interpreter imaginable. She had worked at the Babelsberg studios since 1923 and spoke German fluently, yet with an intriguing Spanish accent. She had arrived on the same convoy as Manstein, intend to help the country of her origin; but, obviously, actresses were not what Mexico required in the first place today. Thus, she had offered working as an interpreter for the German specialists, whom she already had known from the voyage to Veracruz on board the HAPAG liner ‘Kaiser Wilhelm III’.

Erich von Manstein paused in the shadow of a ruin in order to write down some notes into his tickler. One could learn a lot about fighting in urban areas here in Ciudad de México. The Amis had used their armour quite effectively for suppressing resistance; this required some extra ammunition – and the resolution not to spare the civilian population, but it worked. Thus, the contention originating from the Spanish Civil War that tanks were not suited for urban fighting could be debunked. The lesson learned at Arras in 1918 still held truth: By their ability to destroy whole buildings, tanks were ideally suited for the task, provided they were diligently protected from enemy close combat squads, especially those armed with Panzerfäuste.

While von Manstein was writing, del Rio had lighted a cigarette and was now regarding the scenery. She was appalled by the destruction and misery to be witnessed everywhere. Since arrival in Veracruz, she was moving through ruins and destruction. Being the daughter of a Porfiriato, who had lost all family assets in the First Mexican Revolution, she had come to know poverty and hardship at the age of six; but that had been cosy and comfortable compared to what she experienced these days. How could people carry on under such conditions? Ciudad de México was a vast expanse of rubble, with many corpses still buried below the debris. Until two days ago, Yanqui airplanes had still conducted night raids, ploughing up the wreckage with their heavy bombs.

Ignoring the circle of mendicant kids that had formed around him and del Rio during his note taking, von Manstein continued his tour. Ahead was a collecting point for US armour. The Mexicans intended to utilise some of the tanks and armoured cars captured, this required cannibalisation of the rest. Therefore, collecting points had been set up all over the city. While the Panzerfäuste generally had only caused light or moderate damage, US bombs had thoroughly smashed most wrecks. The American M3 tank was roughly the equivalent of the Panzer III currently in service with the Heer. Until now, he had only seen two M3s fragmented by direct bomb hits, but most vehicles had badly been tossed around by bomb blast, losing turrets, tracks and other parts. Thus, one could state that aerial bombing was more effective against tanks than shelling by artillery. The blast and the splinters delivered by artillery shells hardly could stop tanks, but the blast effect of heavy bombs obviously was capable of ultimately disabling them.

Del Rio watched von Manstein crawl around between the rusty wrecks. The man was a militaristic maniac, absolutely devoted to his eerie profession. Opposite her, he was courteous and gallant, but that was about all. No sexual emotion had ever distracted him from his strange activities, although she had signalled her willingness for a little adventure early on. In 1929, she had separated from her husband, Jaime Martinez del Rio, who subsequently had committed suicide; since that time she had entered alternating unrewarding short-term relationships with various men, mainly from the movie industry. Von Manstein, the leader of the German military expert team sent to Mexico, had impressed her as a natural leader and extraordinary shrewd head already on board of the liner. Therefore, she had taken care to be selected as his interpreter. But obviously, he was more interested in torn steel and grimy debris than in a beautiful woman…

Von Manstein wasted no time examinating the effects of the Panzerfäuste; these had been most thoroughly tested in Germany – and it was well known what they could do and what not. But here was a tank that obviously had fallen victim to a ‘Mexican Cocktail’. These incendiary bottles were an ingenious invention of the Mexican guerrillas: Easy to manufacture and very dangerous especially in urban surrounding, also quite useful when fighting from house to house…
If one replaced the fuel with white phosphorus, one might be able to produce an incendiary hand grenade easy to handle by common soldiers. – Von Manstein opened his tickler and started writing again…
 
The cliche is that the Germans turn war into a science. Like in OTL the von Manstein of TTL seems to make that the reality. His idea for a anti-tank grenade using a chemical charge is easily doable.

Knowing the complete inner workings of the American tanks, with working models available, would be of immense value. There are something that would be worth while to attempt to reverse engineer. In OTL the transmissions in the heavy German tanks were never totally debugged. I don't know how much of that was due to wartime construction or flawed overworked design. Its just that as American tanks grew heavier in the 1940s the same problems didn't seem to crop up as much.
 
The cliche is that the Germans turn war into a science. Like in OTL the von Manstein of TTL seems to make that the reality. His idea for a anti-tank grenade using a chemical charge is easily doable.

Knowing the complete inner workings of the American tanks, with working models available, would be of immense value. There are something that would be worth while to attempt to reverse engineer. In OTL the transmissions in the heavy German tanks were never totally debugged. I don't know how much of that was due to wartime construction or flawed overworked design. Its just that as American tanks grew heavier in the 1940s the same problems didn't seem to crop up as much.

LOL - The Pershing and up to M-48 (late) have the same or worse problems of the heavies (including the Panther) german tanks....
Transmission / engine / reliability - you name it - both have it.....
 
When people talk about the Pershing or the M-48 mechanical problems aren't the first the first thing to come up. Mostly its in the form TLs where in the Pershing was fielded on an earlier date. The Tiger and the Panther on the other hand mechanical problems are one of the first things that come up.

One of the enticing aspects of this TL is the prospect that the Panther could be perfected in peacetime and hopefully the Tiger never leaves the draftsman's table.
 
When people talk about the Pershing or the M-48 mechanical problems aren't the first the first thing to come up. Mostly its in the form TLs where in the Pershing was fielded on an earlier date. The Tiger and the Panther on the other hand mechanical problems are one of the first things that come up.

One of the enticing aspects of this TL is the prospect that the Panther could be perfected in peacetime and hopefully the Tiger never leaves the draftsman's table.


Well, tanks are generally not really reliable, the panther and tiger suffered from the weak transmission and had a weak engine...

if someone will solve this (huge diesel engine, broad tracks and some gear that could hold the forces), the tiger is a perfect tank.

but i doubt that tanks will be so important in this scenario, with all the fine cheap antitank stuff tanks will be less important. i bet they look for something different, say automatical rifles...

the germans had the MK18, they developtet the Sturmgewehr44 (in real life) and earlier versions in 1938-1942, so they (or others) could realize that you need a lot firepower to break the lines, tanks are vulnerable, i doubt someone "find" cobham armor so fast, but if every soldier is equipped with a weapon that fires so many rounds so far like a belgish G1 or G3-stormweapon, this could cause a revolution, right?
 
Wait. Have people already started applying sloped armor to tanks?

And the Panther was a fucking awesome tank. A LOT of it's mechanical problems were a result of it being rushed into production, so they ran into teething problems and whatnot.

Once they worked the kinks out it was pretty badass. My favorite WW2 tank.
 
Last edited:
Wait. Have people already started applying sloped armor to tanks?

And the Panther was a fucking awesome tank. A LOT of it's mechanical problems were a result of it being rushed into production, so they ran into teething problems and whatnot.

Once they worked the kinks out it was pretty badass. My favorite WW2 tank.

While I like the Panther - one of the best WWII tanks - several problems that are not addressed even in late (F) models...
- slow rotating turret - one of the great advantages of the Sherman
- need to remove turret to change engine
- not really good at short range - ok, one of the best at medium/long range (and is designed for that)
- weak lateral armor - more or less fixed in F
Best of the lot - but not produced - F model with 88L71 and the new 1000hp DI maibach engine....
 
If Mannstein's already thinking about white phosphorus hand grenades, and the idea takes hold, chances are it won't be long until it's used for shells and bombs as well. Possibly with an earlier development of napalm to boot.

- Kelenas
 
Sloped armor was known to naval designers since the first ironclads during the ACW. In the thirties improvements in anti-tank guns led to increased use of sloped armor first fielded by the french in WW1. One of the consequences of the Mexican war is that German engineers will be looking to develop vehicles that can withstand their own weapons.

The tank ideas that Informationfan has sound a lot like the king tiger from OTL minus the wider tracks. It would still suffer lack of mobility just due to its weight, 65-70 + tons.

When the STG is ready for evaluation it will cause a revolution, there will be no other option. The German Army is still organized at the platoon level much like they were at the end of the nineteenth century. Most soldiers armed with a bolt-action rifle with a few SMGs and GPMGs rounding it out. There were a few specialized outfits like the storm troops used a different weapons mix. What will change is that a single platoon will suddenly have more firepower than a company did before.

Nothing short of a nuke can quite ruin your day quite as fast a weaponized phosphorus, especially in the form of napalm. If its developed in TTL in the US like in OTL I don't like to think about the use that it would be put to. It has crimes against humanity written all over it.
 
¡ Hi ! ¡ DOLORES DEL RIO !, ¡ LOL !:eek::D:cool::D.

About Dolores Del Rio what a total nice surprise Rast:cool:. Please people, see her life in wikipedia, because she was one of the most famous actresss in the 30´s, she was a lover of Orson Wells, a friend of Diego Rivera and Frida Khalo, ¡ Heck !, the great Greta Garbo say more or less that: " Dolores was the most beatifully and excellent actress in Hollywood:eek: ", if you have the the oportunity please see with how to say, titles, letters, writting the black and white movie with the name of Maria Candelaria, in short, what an awesome surprise, well done:).

About the germans, yep, there are learning so many important things, not only about tanks, and hand granates, or mexican cocktails:D, but how important are the use of guerrillas in conventional war, the suport of population in that class of conflict, about military will and dicipline in combat, about how important is to provided stocks, etc.. in short, this conflict are opening their eyes in new fields of moder war;):cool::D:cool:.

Peace:).
 
¡ Hi ! to Shogo: About problems and the future of México and America:

1.-For México´s the problems are:
A)A lot of war´s victims:(, or maybe not because for one part the works of Calles and for other, well so many died in the last combats:D.
B)The drug´s lords, a real wild card, can it be controled, can it be exterminated, can it be the new overlords and masters, or maybe they became rich and provided a lot of monye for reconstruction will see...
C)Calles and Cárdenas, Calles is very smart but Cardenas is a freaking genious:cool:, in our world, both guys was presidents of México, but they really hate one to another, in short Cárdenas exiles Calles using the army:eek:, and some decades latter in the big goverment´s party celebration both leaders was invited and show in the same ofitial photo:rolleyes::D:rolleyes:, in short, a civil war is posible after the victory:eek:.

2.-For México the advantages are:
A)Cardenas and Calles:D.
B)The money for drug lords:(.
C)A young population who know and feel that everything is possible:cool:.
CH)The help provided by another countries that by the way want to do buisness with México:cool:.
D)Fertile land in the southern states, minerals in the center states, hard industries, in other states...
E)Aghh a bath taste in my mouth, one word: EVEG.
 
¡ Hi ! for América after the war:

I.-The advantages are:
A)mmhh, let me think, mhh a lot of arid unfertile unproductive dry useless desert:D.
B)In Baja there exist some whales:rolleyes:.
C)Please give me another oportunity, i can think some profit for this war;):D:D.

II.-For disvantages:
A)A lot of angry grunts..
B)Freaking scary powerfully drug lords and mafia boses:eek:.
C)Canada is in deep sh.., a lot of unemployed peoples, political parties fighting one to another, are for the moment part of the empire, the buisness are slowly broken, etc...
CH)The GREAT GREAT GREAT depresion are hiden by america´s goverment:eek:.
D)The Dust Bowl now are something EPIC natural disaster:(.
E)A lot of buisness, companies, enterprises, etc.. are how to say have hope for new buisness, lands, oportunities, in the new conquered territories, not victory: and well ¡ VOLIA ! economic collapse...
F)A lot of drug people, wounded veterans, unployement peoples,etc..:(.
G)Because all the goverment´s money was wasted in the southern conquest, no more resources for helping the american economy in industries, or reforestation programs, or works against the next depresion:eek::(:eek:.
H)And finnally two words: McAdoo and Hearst...:D:rolleyes::D.

What you think uncle Shogo, in short what country are in a total proces of how to say, internall collapse, meltdown, big crunch;):eek::D:D.

Peace and good luck:).
 
Sloped armor was known to naval designers since the first ironclads during the ACW. In the thirties improvements in anti-tank guns led to increased use of sloped armor first fielded by the french in WW1. One of the consequences of the Mexican war is that German engineers will be looking to develop vehicles that can withstand their own weapons.

The tank ideas that Informationfan has sound a lot like the king tiger from OTL minus the wider tracks. It would still suffer lack of mobility just due to its weight, 65-70 + tons.

When the STG is ready for evaluation it will cause a revolution, there will be no other option. The German Army is still organized at the platoon level much like they were at the end of the nineteenth century. Most soldiers armed with a bolt-action rifle with a few SMGs and GPMGs rounding it out. There were a few specialized outfits like the storm troops used a different weapons mix. What will change is that a single platoon will suddenly have more firepower than a company did before.

Nothing short of a nuke can quite ruin your day quite as fast a weaponized phosphorus, especially in the form of napalm. If its developed in TTL in the US like in OTL I don't like to think about the use that it would be put to. It has crimes against humanity written all over it.

Hi, about the tanks, i like to disagree... tanks like the tiger2 aren´t necessary... something "easy" like the tiger (basically a wellarmored box) is possible... if you optimize his failures (weak engine - put a 1000hp-diesel on it and you get a very agile tank crossroads... 58tons with 1000hp is not bad, if they want, they could even go to 1200hp... so you have more or less the same HP per ton like 1960-tanks)

i think, the automatic rifle could be much more important.
if the germans develop em (they did, but lacked the money, in this timeline they have money and use for it, they even developted the panzerfaust 15 years earlier), they will have a big advantage, even if everybody copy it.
Cause in small units, german leadership is far superior to the other big nations
 
Happiness is nothing more than good health and a bad memory.
(Albert Schweitzer)

The visit of the Imperial Family on the eve of the crucial provincial elections represented a severe challenge for Plenipotentiary Heinrich von Schnee and his staff. After all, this was the first time ever that a German Kaiser came to visit Middle Africa.

The Imperial Family arrived by train on Thursday, July 27th, 1933. Crossing the border from the Emirate of Egypt at Am Dafok, the Imperial special train was welcomed by a Middle African delegation headed by the Plenipotentiary.
Am Dafok – as border crossing point for the transcontinental railway line – was a busy and populous place in the midst of an otherwise largely uninhabited savanna. Some five thousand people had gathered to see and cheer the Imperial Family.

Kaiser Wilhelm IV and his wife Giovanna were accompanied by Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm Viktor Emmanuel, aged six, Princess Viktoria Elena Cecilie, aged four, Prince Heinrich Hubertus Oskar, aged three, and Prince August Wilhelm Ferdinand, born nine months ago.
There was, of course, a complete crew of adjutants, nannies, nurses, guards, waiters, secretaries, and stewards on the train – plus Vice Chancellor and Colonial Minister Wilhelm Solf (FVP) with his secretarial staff.

The media were present with a strong force of reporters and camera operators. The Middle African military had assembled a battalion of honour guards cum military band, while an artillery battery for the salute was lurking in the background – and a flight of fighters was circling above.

Despite the fact that his father had been assassinated during a state visit to France five years ago, Wilhelm did not shy away from contact with his subjects. After von Schnee had delivered the welcoming address and the honour guards had been inspected, he shook hands with von Schnee’s delegation before answering the questions of the reporters.

The first question was – quite predictably – why it had taken so long until a Kaiser came to eventually visit Middle Africa.
“A state visit means a considerable strain for the state visited. While my father and I always cared for the progress made in Middle Africa and kept us well informed about it, we refrained from upsetting the process by an untimely visit. – Today, at the eve of your provincial elections, your common weal has grown sufficiently mature – therefore the Plenipotentiary signalled that a visit was now considered possible without unsettling Middle African affairs. – Well, my family and I did not hesitate; we took the earliest opportunity to come – and look forward to meet people in Middle Africa and see their achievements.”

Although the itinerary of the Imperial Family had been handed out to the media well in advance, the next question was just about it.
“From here, we will proceed to Duala – and I will climb Mount Cameroon; the next stop will be at Boma, where we will board a steamer and cruise upstream on the Congo River to Lisala. In Lisala, the train will pick us up again, and then we’ll cross the Rift Valley Bridge and proceed to Kigoma. After a boat tour on Lake Tanganyika, we’ll move on to Tabora and then to Daressalam. After a trip down to Lindi, the journey will lead us to Tanga and to the Usambara Mountains. While my family will sojourn at a lodge there, I will climb Mount Kilimanjaro and Mount Meru. Thereafter, the state visit will be resumed and we’ll move to Katanga Province. From Katanga we’ll proceed to Windhoek and Lüderitz. At Lüderitz, we’ll be picked up by a Middle African cruiser and be transported to Lomé. From Groß Togoland, the cruiser will then bring us to Duala again, where we’ll board the train and return to Germany.”

After some more harmless questions, an aggressive female newspaper reporter asked about Wilhelm’s opinion on the sterilisations and neuterings of Middle Africans conducted by the US in the Trans-Atlantic War.
“This was an explicit violation of international law, but it became only known to us after the acts had already been committed. As there is no way to undo it, I can only express my compassion with the victims.”
“And why weren’t we allowed to retaliate in kind? – We had about thousand Ami prisoners of war at that time!”
“Retaliation serves to deter the other side from further doing wrong. – In this case, the acts had already happened in the past. – What you call retaliation, would only have been revenge. And pure revenge is as unlawful as sterilisation and neutering.”
“Would you tell us the same story if white Germans had been neutered?”
“Certainly. – Had we known about it during the war, retaliation might have been considered in order to prevent the enemy from further misdeeds. But we only became aware of the facts during the peace talks. – Therefore, believe me, a distinction between black and white was never made.”
 
Last edited:
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top