A series of assumptions: a Britwank on a budget?

Riain

Banned
I think you're saying that the length of time required to design and build the warheads dictated when the Resolution class could be built and that is why they've been ordered 16 months earlier than OTL instead of 24 months earlier.

George Washington and Ethan Allen classes had their A-1 and A-2 missiles replaced by Polaris A-3 IOTL, but they couldn't be rearmed with Poseidon because the cost of replacing the missile tubes (which were too small) was prohibitively expensive. (The first 8 Lafayettes had Polaris A-2 too but it was possible to rearm them with Poseidon because their missile tubes were larger.)

The people designing the TTL Resolution class around Polaris A-2 will have to make sure that the missile tubes are big enough to be fitted with larger missiles.

There are 3 main reasons, although I didn't dive down the rabbit hole of month to month timing
  1. There is no emergency, this is the main reason, there is no great need to shave off 8 months
  2. The industrial capability to build nuclear submarines was still developing
  3. The industrial capability to design and build nuclear warheads of 2.5 types was still developing

As the R class will use the last A2s their tubes will be the same size as the Lafayettes, with locating rings and fibre-glass lagging that can be removed for Poseidon.
 
Interestingly enough, when their own bonkers X-diesel engine didn't work, the Americans launched the development of two conventionnal diesels for the T95 medium tank, the AVDS and LVDS-1100 V8. The latter made 700hp...with 18L (19.47 if you use piston displacement it seems). Seems like small 700hp V8s are the saviors of Anglo-Saxon tanks. And since the engine bays of the T95 and Chieftain could accept compatible engines, having either country succeed could have given them both a good engine...
 
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Riain

Banned
I've been amazed by how such tiny decisions have massive spin-offs, the RR V8 for the Chieftain being one of them, it would have transformed the tank so that it didn't spend it's entire life in remediation. The Trident and VC10 airliners are the same; short-sighted, state-owned airlines crippled these potentially healthy selling aircraft
 
Apparently something like half the US nuclear warheads developed during the temporary test ban era would have been duds and either fizzled or not gone off at all.
Do we know how reliable the USSR's nuclear warheads developed during that period were?
 
I mostly compared it on a weight basis, and weight of those suspension types didn't change much over time. And spamming dampeners like on the Leo 2 is not hard even in the 60s, but again this was just a worst-case comparison for the torsion bar. Torsion bar suspensions contemporary to Chieftain still offered better ride quality and were lighter than the extreme Leo 2 type (though for some reason US TBs on the Pattons had really poor late life handling, at least in the specific case of Israel, which is a rocky country).

Besides, if Hortsmann (and other spring-based suspensions) really was competitive in ride quality, the Americans wouldn't have adopted it just after getting HVSS and reported that TB offered better ride quality and the Soviets and Germans wouldn't have been so hell-bent on it (moreso for the Germans considering that Horstmann equivalents would also have been doable with the poor materials they had in WW2).

More curious is the British case itself. The postwar service tanks used Horstmann and later Hydrogas, but the FV 300 series, Vickers export tanks (even the MBT Mk 1 which used other Chieftain components!), CVR(T) series, FV 432 series (1960s!) and the Warrior (stuck in development hell in the 70s before Hydrogas became available), all of those vehicles used torsion bar. And out of all the suspensions that Vickers would design during the war (wishbones for Vanguard/Valiants, air struts on Tetrarch), a revived A6's Horstmann was not one of them. If anything the Chieftain having Horstmann is the anomaly.

Did the REME guys ever complain about CVR(T) and FV 432 torsion bar maintenance?

Hydrogas offers better ride quality, somewhat improved wheel travel, can reduce weight by 100kg minimum per wheel and doesn't take space in the hull, it just was still a bit too expensive in the 80s to see really massive use but choosing it over torsion bar if it works is absolutely legitimate. But it wasn't the case in the 60s (though that's partially because the units that went on the MBT-70 were very complicated). Of course we all know about the ability to increase gun depression/elevation but you can also use those units to block the suspension when firing, which drastically reduces the rocking effect. Hydropneumatic is excellent, just usually for the 80s and beyond. It's one of those times when the British actually chose the expensive but high quality option. Too bad this wasn't the case for the rest of the Challenger.

This is what you must do to replace a bogie:
View attachment 621530
Chieftain was just as bad because the track is supported by a return roller on the bogie itself and center guides run through it. At least HVSS fixed this problem since the return roller was not on the bogie. And you need a crane to remove that bogie. The idea that removing a bogie is somehow easy is a misconception.

Meanwhile for removing TBs, you just need to release the stress on the torsion bar, undo the cap that protects the torsion bar, undo some bolts in the hull itself on the torsion bar mount and pull it out (something you can do with just humans since TBs are light enough). Releasing the stress is done with a jack that gets put under the tank

Or you can drive onto something that does that for you. Granted if you are a Patton tank driver it will be a bit harder to reach the bar because there is no coating on it, but it's not that hard.

And remember, a torsion bar requires no maintenance as long as it doesn't snap, and since most of the work is done on the surface of the bar/spring, an external spring element can be taken out over time by enemy fire, thrown rocks and what have you. A TB doesn't.

Now, it's true that removing TBs bent by a mine is a PITA that requires a factory job BUT: if a mine bent your TBs then the hull itself requires factory work or will be written off anyway, it's not dependent on the suspension type. By the way a 9.5kg mine with 50/50 RDX and TNT that explodes under a T-54's track will lose a wheel and swingarm.

A Chieftain that runs over a 8.9kg TNT mine: hull breached (pictures are too large sadly).

So much for easy maintenance.

I suspect the decision was made purely because of the Chieftain being a development of the earlier tanks (Conqueror and Cent) and that Horstman was a known and understood and importantly 'trusted' suspension system and supportable by the British industry of the day.

We see the same sort of thing with Israel's Merkava MBT adapting a 'similar' system to Centurion (I believe made by Caterpillar) in the initial development and first versions

And again this makes sense - its what they knew and trusted.

While the Horstman used on the Chieftain is certainly a dead end as far as tank suspension goes it was trusted by the British at the time of the Chieftain development and while I appreciate your opposition to it I do not think I have ever seen the suspension mentioned in any general critique on it or the earlier tanks (in fact the opposite if anything) and so I think you are 'over egging the pudding' somewhat.

So while they could have used something different they are almost certainly not going to within this TL

Also showing pictures of destroyed tanks etc is a bug bear of mine - all tanks can be damaged/killed by mines etc and pictures can be produced accordingly - and what is the context of that picture - looks like a destructive test to me?
 
Our 2016 data is old, old, old.

Take it for what it is worth. Topol and Bulava are provably less effective than Trident, but 66% still gets the job done.
Yeah enough to rearrange the ashes several times over I suspect!

I recall a series on British TV called QED in the early 80s one episode of which shown to us by a sadistic teacher that simulated the effect of a single 1 MT nuke detonated 1 mile above Saint Pauls in London - very grim - showing how various people might or probably not survive such an attack depending where they were at the time and how they had prepared etc.


So you get to thinking oh well so some people might survive - until the conclusion when the program shows the then suspected 'multiple' number of warheads (plus their yield) targeted at London.

That and the film Threads where the most terrifying things I have ever watched as a teenager or since for that matter (horror films bore me as a result)
 
I suspect the decision was made purely because of the Chieftain being a development of the earlier tanks (Conqueror and Cent) and that Horstman was a known and understood and importantly 'trusted' suspension system and supportable by the British industry of the day.

We see the same sort of thing with Israel's Merkava MBT adapting a 'similar' system to Centurion (I believe made by Caterpillar) in the initial development and first versions

And again this makes sense - its what they knew and trusted.

While the Horstman used on the Chieftain is certainly a dead end as far as tank suspension goes it was trusted by the British at the time of the Chieftain development and while I appreciate your opposition to it I do not think I have ever seen the suspension mentioned in any general critique on it or the earlier tanks (in fact the opposite if anything) and so I think you are 'over egging the pudding' somewhat.

So while they could have used something different they are almost certainly not going to within this TL

Also showing pictures of destroyed tanks etc is a bug bear of mine - all tanks can be damaged/killed by mines etc and pictures can be produced accordingly - and what is the context of that picture - looks like a destructive test to me?
That's what I think too, Leyland doesn't really strike me as a particularly innovative company. I just wanted to keep things straight and show the maximum that could be done, but it's dependent on British thinking in the end.

I explained the context, running over a mine with 8.9kg of TNT. Same conditions as the T-54 except that the latter faced an even more powerful mine. That's the TM-62 mine by the way, which is pretty common as far as AT mines go so it's not just a destructive test but what would usually happen in an AT minefield against a Soviet-equipped force.
 

Riain

Banned
The 66% reliability figure is basically each of things needing to happen being 1-5% reliable; ignition of 1st stage, separation of 1st stage etc etc etc until warhead detonation.

From what I understand the reliability factor for W47 warhead detonation wasn't 95-99% but as low as 50%, so if ~20 steps at 1-5% failure rate gets you 66% what does 19 steps at 1-5% failure rate and 1 step at 50% failure rate get you?
 
That's what I think too, Leyland doesn't really strike me as a particularly innovative company. I just wanted to keep things straight and show the maximum that could be done, but it's dependent on British thinking in the end.
I note that Vickers used the Torsion bar system in their MBT 1 (that the Indians built as the Vijayanta) which was developed around about the same time and do appear to have been more innovative throughout their tank development history than Leyland (not a byword for innovation)

I recall that their MBT 7 comprehensively trounced the Challenger I in a shoot off at Lulworth (despite a very experienced Challenger I crew being used in both tanks) and I cannot help but note that the gunsight and layout were used in the subsequent Vickers designed Challenger II (and as far as I can see every MBT developed since!).

Perhaps have them take lead on Chieftain - maybe that's the answer - give Vickers-Armstrong the job - they do appear to know what they are about!

In fact I wonder why they did not get the job in the first place?
 
I note that Vickers used the Torsion bar system in their MBT 1 (that the Indians built as the Vijayanta) which was developed around about the same time and do appear to have been more innovative throughout their tank development history than Leyland (not a byword for innovation)

I recall that their MBT 7 comprehensively trounced the Challenger I in a shoot off at Lulworth (despite a very experienced Challenger I crew being used in both tanks) and I cannot help but note that the gunsight and layout were used in the subsequent Vickers designed Challenger II (and as far as I can see every MBT developed since!).

Perhaps have them take lead on Chieftain - maybe that's the answer - give Vickers-Armstrong the job - they do appear to know what they are about!

In fact I wonder why they did not get the job in the first place?
In fact the Mk 7's universal turret served as the basis for the Challenger 2's. A respectable upgrade for the Challenger although not quite as capable as a turret designed specifically for British needs. The MBT-80 would have been even better but alas previous policies had left the British without a modern tank for the early 80s and when it was time to save ROFL who couldn't sell the Shir 2 to the Iranians anymore...

The RARDE tried to salvage the situation one last time with the Challenger PIP 87 to meet British requirements for better mbility, fire control and especially armor that the Challenger 1 could not meet. It was closer to a brand new tank than a product improved one.
1612268808621.png
1612269494419.png

Transversly mounted CV 12 with 1250-1500hp coupled to a new transmission (as an export tank based on the Chieftain, the Shir 2-Chally 1 couldn't do this), further improved suspension, massively increased protection*, MBT-80 FCS components, carroussel autoloader and new L30-style gun to keep the weight under 55 long tons...
This could actually have been a very competitive tank for its era but procurement politics screwed this one again.

*350 or 550mm against KE (can't read this one well) at normal to glacis instead of 300, 900mm against HEAT instead of 580, 386mm instead of 242mm KE on the side plate at a 10° angle from the front. The driver was move to the left so no need for the cutout that weakened the armor.

I remember Britain dropping the ball again when they chose not to develop W-Ni-Fe alloys for APFSDS as they thought W-Ni-Cu would be enough. Turns out it wasn't, and I've hard horror stories about the 105mm L64 dart they tried to sell at export.


70's and 80's British tank procurement is so sad because they could actually have been very competitive.


Vickers not getting Chieftain is odd, maybe the British government trusted Leyland who was given the Centurion production in 1945 while Vickers hadn't really made large and heavy tanks in WW2 and was unable to push new designs after the Valentine, but still.
 
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Vickers not getting Chieftain is odd, maybe the British government trusted Leyland who was given the Centurion production in 1945 while Vickers hadn't really made large and heavy tanks in WW2 and was unable to push new designs after the Valentine, but still.
Vickers also built the Cent!

"Whilst the majority were built by Leyland Motors in Lancashire and at the Royal Ordnance Factories (ROF) Leeds, the Elswick Works played their part in the production of this versatile platform. Between 1944 - 1960, they produced 1,437 main battle tanks and 345 Armoured Recovery Vehicles."
 
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Further to the above that document also details how they were involved in Conqueror and FV201 "universal tank" development.

Leyland do appear to be the main builder of tanks during the Cent/Chieftain period - maybe it was a production capacity thing?

But looking at how successful Vickers tank designs were - them leading on Chieftain instead of Leyland could be the POD needed for a better "RR V8, Torsion Bar" version of Chieftain?
 
Further to the above that document also details how they were involved in Conqueror and FV201 "universal tank" development.

Leyland do appear to be the main builder of tanks during the Cent/Chieftain period - maybe it was a production capacity thing?

But looking at how successful Vickers tank designs were - them leading on Chieftain instead of Leyland could be the POD needed for a better "RR V8, Torsion Bar" version of Chieftain?
RR V8 is independent fortunately (and unfortunately if it had been cancelled in a Vickers Chieftain TL). TB and adapted hull design-probably.

Vickers' torsion bar system is rather interesting itself because while its wheel travel and number of hydraulic dampeners is the same as the M60A1 (better than the T-54 and AM-30), the Vickers MBT had the bars angled relative to the hull sides so that the wheels are at the same level, which isn't the case with other suspension where one wheel will be in front of the other. This means that they will wear at the same speed, instead of one wearing out faster.
Moreover Vickers added small secondary TBs in the trailing arms of the first two, and last suspension units per side to provide additionnal performance over rough ground (all units had those on the heavier Vickers Mk 4). The Vickers system probably didn't have the late life issues of Patton bars, so this system is arguably the second best torsion bar suspension of the era behind the extreme Leopard 1 (which had even more hydraulic dampeners and greater wheel travel, but was heavier and more expensive).

I will have to check but Vickers may have used more modern roadwheels too. Those on the Centurion (and Chieftain which had the same) were notoriously heavy.
 
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McPherson

Banned
The 66% reliability figure is basically each of things needing to happen being 1-5% reliable; ignition of 1st stage, separation of 1st stage etc etc etc until warhead detonation.

From what I understand the reliability factor for W47 warhead detonation wasn't 95-99% but as low as 50%, so if ~20 steps at 1-5% failure rate gets you 66% what does 19 steps at 1-5% failure rate and 1 step at 50% failure rate get you?
In the case of the PAL architecture of the time, I cannot tell you, because I do not know exactly which part of the fail-test sequence was involved, but since permissive action linkage was designed to inert the warhead if the sequence did not exactly perform in flight as intended; (I "think" it might have been the accelerometers.) 90% to 100% is not implausible. It was another case of not testing the complete goddamned initiator chain in a full series of function tests again. One would think after the torpedo, bomb and shell fuses and functions crises of 1941-1942, the USN would have learned?

Anyway... one can only "imagine" what computer modeling as substitutes for function tests means for actual performance assurances. There has to be some "doubt" as to the actual "bang" in the warheads of those weapon systems in the arsenals of nuclear test ban treaty compliant powers. It is a "good" thing to be unsure and one hopes that gangster states and rogue regimes who have fizzled their tests also are unsure, and those "fizzles" were actual "fizzles" and not just "tickles" as I suspect some of the "supposedly" NTBT compliant states may have pulled themselves to ensure warhead functions.^1

^1 A "tickle" is a function test of a pseudo-warhead with a practice "conventional" or "inert" materials with a function charge to see if the design physically works up to the imploder portion of the device. Everything, but the "pit", and the "booster", so to speak.
 

Riain

Banned
Is the PAL that boron wire in the W47 that made the warhead safe until it was withdrawn on it's reel?
 

McPherson

Banned
Is the PAL that boron wire in the W47 that made the warhead safe until it was withdrawn on it's reel?
I do not know if the neutron sump was directly involved in the PAL mechanisms or if the found embrittlement and mechanism jamming was a separate issue. I do know that the pit was wire doped to prevent criticality or runaway fission chaining until the sump was withdrawn.
 

Riain

Banned
These 1960 nukes are as dodgy as the 1960 mach 2 fighters, you can get the high performance as long it is at the expense of everything else.
 
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