A series of assumptions: a Britwank on a budget?

[Riain]

Just a few Out of Area interventions undertaken by Britain during the Cold War.

1. Iraq/Kuwait crisis 1961 (Victorious)
2. Brunei revolt 1962
3. Indonesian confrontation 1963-66
4. Aden emergency 1963-67 (Hunter sqn)
5. Tangyuanika crisis 1964 (Centaur + 45Cdo RM)
6. Beira patrol 1966-75 (2 frigates)
7. Belize 1972 (Ark Royal)
8. Belize 1975 (Harrier flight)
9. South Thule 1976 (Op Journeyman)
10. Belize 1977-93 (Harrier flight)
11. Armilla patrol 1980-> (2-3 ships from 1981)
12. Falklands 1982-> (War then fighter flight, Inf Coy & warship)
13. Gulf War 1990-> (Armoured Division, 90 combat aircraft, 4 warships)

This isn't counting the NATO/Home stuff like Berlin and Cuban Missile crises, the Troubles in Ireland and the Turkish invasion of Cyprus.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

She really wasn't impressed when the US invaded the Commonwealth nation of Grenada. She felt that if it had to be done Britain and other Commonwealth nations should have been the ones to do it.

I think it was also the issue of setting a precedent that concerned her as well

The 'apology' is amusing

 

[Rickshaw]

I think it was also the issue of setting a precedent that concerned her as well

The 'apology' is amusing

I see he was already perpetuating the lies about the reasons why the US invaded. The Organisation of Caribbean States didn't contact the US until after the invasion, not before it.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Question.

ITTL the RAF has 14 VC10 K1, 13 VC10 CK1 and ~15 Belfast C1 in service in 1982 and some unsold Belfasts in some state of preservation. They undertake an up-engining of the Belfast fleet after the Falklands to C2 standard.

Does the RAF buy the Lockheed Tristar ITTL, or is the Belfast C2 and VC10 fleet good enough?

Yes and it will still have to buy the ex-airline VC.10s that were converted into tankers in the 1980s.

OTL the RAF had 12 fixed-wing transport squadrons and 3 tanker squadrons in the middle 1970s, which the Mason Defence Review reduced to five fixed-wing and two tanker squadrons. ITTL they were reduced to six fixed-wing transport and two tanker squadrons.

IOTL the five surviving fixed-wing transport squadrons were No. 10 with the VC.10 C Mk 1s and Nos. 24, 30, 47 & 70 flying the Hercules with the aircraft that were formerly operated by Nos. 36 and 48 Squadrons in aircraft storage units. The two tanker squadrons were Nos. 55 and 57 flying the Victor K. Mk 2.

IOTL No. 57 Squadron disbanded on 30th June 1986, but No 55 Squadron didn't disband until 15th October 1993. No. 101 Squadron reformed on 1st May 1984 with ex-airline VC.10s that had been converted to K. Mk 2, 3 and 4 tankers. No. 216 reformed on 1st November 1984 with ex-airline Tristars. Therefore, for about 18 months the RAF had double the number of tanker squadrons.

ITTL the six transport squadrons were No. 10 with the VC.10, No. 53 with 15 Belfasts and Nos. 24, 30, 47 & 70 flying the C.160 Transall. The Belfasts and Transalls that became surplus to requirements after the Mason Review were sent to the aircraft storage units.

IOTL the 13 of the 14 C. Mk 1s operated by No. 10 Squadron weren't converted to C. Mk 1K standard until the 1990s. XR809 the fourteenth aircraft was leased to Rolls Royce to Rolls-Royce as a flying test bed for the RB211 turbofan engine. It was given the civil registration G-AXLR and on 6th May 1970 made its first light with three-engines. On 26th September 1975 the aircraft was delivered to RAF Kemble. Initially the aircraft would return to RAF service but it was found that the airframe was distorted, and repairs were deemed too costly. In the end the airframe was used for SAS training purposes and was left to decay at the site, eventually being scrapped. (Source VC10.net)

ITTL they were converted to CK. Mk 1 standard in the 1960s. Presumably, this means transport-tanker rather than tanker-transport, which infers that they were transports first and tankers second.

IIRC from earlier in the thread the RAF purchased BOAC's 12 Standard VC.10s in when the airline's Super VC.10s were delivered and converted them to K Mk 1 tankers. However, that was only enough to equip one of the three tanker squadrons that the RAF had between 1966 and 1976. Therefore, the RAF still needed to convert two squadrons worth of Victor Mk 1 bombers into tankers to make up the difference. These will need to be replaced at the same time as IOTL.

The OTL solution was to convert the surviving Victor Mk 2s into tankers, but this was reduced to two-thirds of the survivors because the Mason Defence Review reduced the number of tankers squadrons form three to two. ITTL the plan would have been to convert two-thirds of the survivors to equip two squadrons, which the Review would have reduced to one-third to equip one squadron. These will still need to be replaced in the 1980s.

IOTL the MoD acquired 39 VC.10s. That is 14 new Srs.1106 C. Mk 1s and 25 second hand. One was a Type 1103 built for British United Airways that was used by the RAE. The remaining second hand aircraft consisted of six of the 12 Type 1101 Standard VC.10s that were built for BOAC, the four surviving Type 1154 Super VC.10s from East African Airways and 14 of the 15 surviving Type 1151 Super VC.10s that were built for BOAC. 14 of the 24 were converted to tankers: five Type 1101s to K. Mk 2s, four Type 1154 to K. Mk 3s and five Type 1151s to K. Mk 4s.

ITTL the RAF has been operating the 12 Type 1101s since the second half of the 1960s. I think it will also acquire the survivors of the 30 Super VC.10s built for BOAC ITTL as well as the four surviving EAA aircraft. This would give them a pool of about 30 aircraft. In common with OTL the 14 aircraft with the fewest flying hours will be converted into K. Mk 3 and 4 tankers to replace the Victors and the others will be used for spares.

So my guess is that the RAF's dedicated tanker force in the Falklands War will consist of No. 55 Squadron with VC.10 K. Mk 1s and No. 57 Squadron with Victor K. Mk 2s backed up by the VC.10 CK. Mk 1s of No. 10 Squadron provided that they weren't needed for their "day job".

In common with OTL No. 101 Squadron will re-form on VC.10 K. Mk 3s and 4s in May 1984, No. 216 Squadron will re-form on Tristars in November 1984 and No. 57 Squadron will disband in June 1986. No. 55 Squadron will continue flying the VC.10 K. Mk 1 until it disbanded on 15th October 1993.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I wanted to be conservative, my aim was to do the minimum to get the result in a somewhat hostile political environment, so the extra employment and slightly better balance of payments get put back in other areas rather than defence.

I think the net increase in government revenue and extra foreign currency will be spent on anything but HM Forces too. However, that would be good PR because the sums spent on defence would be the same as OTL, but would be a smaller percentage of Britain's GNP due to the economy being larger.

Nothing succeeds like success, so the political environment would become less hostile over time. The British military-industrial complex would be selling more abroad (exports), selling more at home (frustrated imports) and employing more people. So the politicians would develop a less hostile towards it and the same would happen to British public opinion, which would in turn increase its standing with the politicians because there would be more votes in it.

 

[Riain]

1st Armoured division was deployed to Saudi Arabia in 1990 to command British land forces in the Gulf War with the 4th Armoured Brigade and 7th Armoured Brigade under command. The task was almost the exact opposite of what the British Army’s heavy divisions had been expected to do since the fifties. The heavy tanks had been stationed in Germany since the end of WW2 and throughout the Cold War were expected to fight on the defensive on familiar terrain with extensive infrastructure in a cool-temperate climate. In the Mid-East they were expected to fight on the offensive in the scorching heat and open terrain over long distances, like the RAF these units would face challenges in this new operational environment.

The 7th Armoured Brigade included two armoured regiments, the Queen's Royal Irish Hussars and the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, both equipped with 57 of the latest Mark 3 version of the Challenger 1 as well as 1st Battalion, The Staffordshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's) for it’s infantry component and the M109s of 40 Field Regiment, Royal Artillery. The 4th Armoured Brigade had the opposite composition to the 7th AB with single Challenger regiment, 14th/20th King's Hussars, equipped with 43 Challenger 1 tanks and reinforced by a squadron of the Life Guards. They were equipped with the Mark 2 version of the tank, and 2 battalions of mechanised infantry 1st battalion, The Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment) and 3rd Battalion, 3 Royal Regiment of Fusiliers and the obligatory M109s of the 2nd Field Regiment. The division was rounded out with 16th/5th The Queen's Royal Lancers in the recce role and a regiment of M109s, M110s and MRLS as the divisional artillery.

There were major concerns about the reliability of the vehicles. Before the commencement of the Gulf War deployment only 22% of Challenger 1s were operational because of faults and lack of spares. The tanks were modified for desert operations by a REME team and civilian contractors at the quayside in Al Jubayl, Saudi Arabia. This fit included additional Chobham Armour along the hull sides and explosive reactive armour on the nose and front glacis plate. Modifications also included the provision of extra external fuel drums and a smoke generator. They found that these modified vehicles worked better because the plated on additional armor channeled the sand down, reducing the amount being ingested by the engine. Upgrading these vehicles more than doubled their average powerpack life: in early January, a powerpack gave out every 2.8 kilometres if the entire fleet was moving at once, but by early February that number was up to 6.8 kilometres.

The 1st (UK) Armoured Division would be placed under the command of the US VII Corps. This corps would form the armoured fist of the Coalition forces, tasked with destroying the bulk of the Iraqi forces. The 1st (UK) Armoured Division was the easternmost unit in VII Corp's sector, its Challenger tanks forming the spearhead of the advance. The main threat to the Challenger was deemed to be the Iraqi Republican Guard's T-72M tanks; each British tank was provided with twelve L26A1 "Jericho" depleted uranium shells specifically for use against T-72Ms. On 26 February 1991, Call-sign 11B, the Commanding officer of the Scorts DG achieved the longest range confirmed kill of the war, destroying an Iraqi tank with an armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding-sabot (APFSDS) round fired over a distance of 3.18 miles—the longest tank-on-tank kill shot recorded.

After 48 hours of combat, the division destroyed or isolated the 26th, 48th, 31st, and 25th Iraqi infantry divisions and overran the Iraqi 52nd Armoured Division belonging to the Iraqi 7th Corps in several sharp engagements. In 97 hours the division travelled 217 miles and captured or destroyed about 300 tanks and a very large number of armoured personnel carriers, trucks, and reconnaissance vehicles. The division captured two division commanders and two other general officers prisoner and over 7,000 Iraqi prisoners of war. This was a masterful performance for troops far from their comfort zone.

 

[Riain]

Yes and it will still have to buy the ex-airline VC.10s that were converted into tankers in the 1980s.

OTL the RAF had 12 fixed-wing transport squadrons and 3 tanker squadrons in the middle 1970s, which the Mason Defence Review reduced to five fixed-wing and two tanker squadrons. ITTL they were reduced to six fixed-wing transport and two tanker squadrons.

IOTL the five surviving fixed-wing transport squadrons were No. 10 with the VC.10 C Mk 1s and Nos. 24, 30, 47 & 70 flying the Hercules with the aircraft that were formerly operated by Nos. 36 and 48 Squadrons in aircraft storage units. The two tanker squadrons were Nos. 55 and 57 flying the Victor K. Mk 2.

IOTL No. 57 Squadron disbanded on 30th June 1986, but No 55 Squadron didn't disband until 15th October 1993. No. 101 Squadron reformed on 1st May 1984 with ex-airline VC.10s that had been converted to K. Mk 2, 3 and 4 tankers. No. 216 reformed on 1st November 1984 with ex-airline Tristars. Therefore, for about 18 months the RAF had double the number of tanker squadrons.

ITTL the six transport squadrons were No. 10 with the VC.10, No. 53 with 15 Belfasts and Nos. 24, 30, 47 & 70 flying the C.160 Transall. The Belfasts and Transalls that became surplus to requirements after the Mason Review were sent to the aircraft storage units.

IOTL the 13 of the 14 C. Mk 1s operated by No. 10 Squadron weren't converted to C. Mk 1K standard until the 1990s. XR809 the fourteenth aircraft was leased to Rolls Royce to Rolls-Royce as a flying test bed for the RB211 turbofan engine. It was given the civil registration G-AXLR and on 6th May 1970 made its first light with three-engines. On 26th September 1975 the aircraft was delivered to RAF Kemble. Initially the aircraft would return to RAF service but it was found that the airframe was distorted, and repairs were deemed too costly. In the end the airframe was used for SAS training purposes and was left to decay at the site, eventually being scrapped. (Source VC10.net)

ITTL they were converted to CK. Mk 1 standard in the 1960s. Presumably, this means transport-tanker rather than tanker-transport, which infers that they were transports first and tankers second.

IIRC from earlier in the thread the RAF purchased BOAC's 12 Standard VC.10s in when the airline's Super VC.10s were delivered and converted tem to K Mk 1 tankers. However, that was only enough to equip one of the three tanker squadrons that the RAF had between 1966 and 1976. Therefore, the RAF still needed to convert two squadrons worth of Victor Mk 1 bombers into tankers to make up the difference. These will need to be replaced at the same time as IOTL.

The OTL solution was to convert the surviving Victor Mk 2s into tankers, but this was reduced to two-thirds of the survivors because the Mason Defence Review reduced the number of tankers squadrons form three to two. ITTL the plan would have been to convert two-thirds of the survivors to equip two squadrons, which the Review would have reduced to one-third to equip one squadron. These will still need to be replaced in the 1980s.

IOTL the MoD acquired 39 VC.10s. That is 14 new Srs.1106 C. Mk 1s and 25 second hand. One was a Type 1103 built for British United Airways that was used by the RAE. The remaining second hand aircraft consisted of six of the 12 Type 1101 Standard VC.10s that were built for BOAC, the four surviving Type 1154 Super VC.10s from East African Airways and 14 of the 15 surviving Type 1151 Super VC.10s that were built for BOAC. 14 of the 24 were converted to tankers: five Type 1101s to K. Mk 2s, four Type 1154 to K. Mk 3s and five Type 1151s to K. Mk 4s.

ITTL the RAF has been operating the 12 Type 1101s since the second half of the 1960s. I think it will also acquire the survivors of the 30 Super VC.10s built for BOAC ITTL as well as the four surviving EAA aircraft. This would give them a pool of about 30 aircraft. In common with OTL the 14 aircraft with the fewest flying hours will be converted into K. Mk 3 and 4 tankers to replace the Victors and the others will be used for spares.

So my guess is that the RAF's dedicated tanker force in the Falklands War will consist of No. 55 Squadron with VC.10 K. Mk 1s and No. 57 Squadron with Victor K. Mk 2s backed up by the VC.10 CK. Mk 1s of No. 10 Squadron provided that they weren't needed for their "day job".

In common with OTL No. 101 Squadron will re-form on VC.10 K. Mk 3s and 4s in May 1984, No. 216 Squadron will re-form on Tristars in November 1984 and No. 57 Squadron will disband in June 1986. No. 55 Squadron will continue flying the VC.10 K. Mk 1 until it disbanded on 15th October 1993.

The OTL Tanker trajectory as best I can work out is

• 31 Victor B1 to B1K/K1/K1A tanker conversions in 3 sqns: 55, 57 and 214 from the mid 60s.
• 24 Victor B2-K2 conversions from the early 70s 55 and 57 sqn
  • 215 sqn kept the K1A until the Mason review which canned them in 1977.
• Tanker conversions were undertaken on 14 ex-commercial VC10s of 3 types bought in 1981 and converted in the mid 80s and replaced the 57sqn Victors in 1986.
• 6 Tristars were bought from BA in 1982, another 3 from Pan Am in 1984 and the 6 ex-BA aircraft given a single point IFR conversion in 1986.
  • actually its 2 HDU; a big Mk17 and a small Mk20, both on the centreline, so only able to service 1 aircraft at a time
• 12 RAF VC10 C Mk1 were converted to CMk1K in the early 90s and replaced the Victors of 55sqn in 1993.

ITTL the tanker trajectory is

• 31 Victor B1 to B1K/K1/K1A tanker conversions in 3 sqns: 55, 57 and 214 from the mid 60s.
• 12 ex BOAC VC10 K2 3 point tanker conversions early 70s 101 sqn
• 14 RAF C1 to C1K 2 point tanker-combi/transport conversions mid 70s 10 sqn
  • All 31 Victor B1K/K1/K1A out of service by about 1975

With 12 VC10 pure tankers, 14 VC10 combi-transport/tankers, 15 Belfasts and like ~40 C160s in service as opposed to 24 Victor and ~50 C130 IOTL I don't think there would be a serious shortfall in strategic transport that requires the acquisition of a strategic transport with secondary refueling capabilities. If it is then would putting a HDU in the wheel blister of a Belfast, like was done with French C160s, be sufficient?

 

[Riain]

It took the end of the Cold War and the fall of the Berlin Wall for the British Government to finally admit what it had been trying to deny for over 30 years, that Britain was an expeditionary power. The massive transformation the world over, the ‘Peace Dividend’ from the end of the Cold War, affected this change for Britain. The Options for Change White Paper left Britain at the end of the century, in a much diminished form, where she was at the start: as an expeditionary power with a small army!

 

[Riain]

That's it, finished.

Time for a re-write yet?

 

[Spencersj345.346]

If you want to do a rewrite asap go right ahead otherwise find something else your in the mood to do right about.

 

[HBsennah94]

That's it, finished.

Time for a re-write yet?

That, or a sequel into the 21st century...

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Well done.

Pens down and give it time to settle, then do Mk 2. If it takes your fancy a 21st century version would be neat.

 

[Riain]

Maybe expand a few things, or maybe subtly change policy to keep the likes of the med presence at the expense of BAOR.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Wonderful. Great thread.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

BAOR and RAFG were both stood down during 1994

In addition there were major cuts to the reserves (including my glorious RNR) and Britain like everyone else entered the 'peace dividend' years and in my opinion cut too deeply - particularly in manpower.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The OTL Tanker trajectory as best I can work out is

• 31 Victor B1 to B1K/K1/K1A tanker conversions in 3 sqns: 55, 57 and 214 from the mid 60s.
• 24 Victor B2-K2 conversions from the early 70s 55 and 57 sqn
  • 215 sqn kept the K1A until the Mason review which canned them in 1977.
• Tanker conversions were undertaken on 14 ex-commercial VC10s of 3 types bought in 1981 and converted in the mid 80s and replaced the 57sqn Victors in 1986.
• 6 Tristars were bought from BA in 1982, another 3 from Pan Am in 1984 and the 6 ex-BA aircraft given a single point IFR conversion in 1986.
  • actually its 2 HDU; a big Mk17 and a small Mk20, both on the centreline, so only able to service 1 aircraft at a time
• 12 RAF VC10 C Mk1 were converted to CMk1K in the early 90s and replaced the Victors of 55sqn in 1993.

RAF Tanker Squadrons and their Equipment IOTL from the POD to 1st April 1998

According to Humphrey Winn in the RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces the first tanker squadrons were Nos. 90 and 214 with effect from 1st April 1962. However, he went on to write that No. 214 Squadron had been flight refuelling since August 1958 and No. 90 Squadron went into the FR role in October 1961. Both squadrons were disbanded on 1st March 1965 due to the premature withdrawal from service of the Vickers Valiant.

According to Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918 a total of 30 Mk 1 Victors were converted to tankers by Avro at Woodford. That is: 6 two-point B(K) Mk 1A; 10 three-point K. Mk 1; and 14 K. Mk 1A. The B(K) Mk 1A began operations with No. 55 Squadron in June 1965 and the K. Mk 1 in December 1965 with No. 57 Squadron.

Victor Mk 1 tankers were also operated by No. 214 Squadron which reformed on 1st July 1966 and disbanded on 28th January 1977 as part of the Mason Defence Review. It wasn't reformed before 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

According to Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918 a total of 29 Mk 2 Victors were to be converted to tankers by Avro Woodford. However, the number was cut back to 24 in April 1975 as part of the Mason Defence Review. The first K. Mk 2 flew from Woodford on 1st March 1972 and the type entered service with No. 55 Squadron in July 1975. I don't know when it entered service with No. 57 Squadron. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

No. 57 Squadron operated Victor K. Mk 2s until it disbanded on 30th June 1986. It reformed on 1st July 1992 as No. 57 (Reserve) Squadron the Hercules Operational Training Unit by re-designating No. 242 Operational Conversion Unit. It was current on 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

No. 55 Squadron operated Victor K. Mk 2s until 15th October 1993 when it was disbanded. It was reformed the same day as No. 55 (Reserve) Squadron being, the VC.10 Operational Conversion Unit, by re-designating No. 241 Operational Conversion Unit. It was disbanded again on 31st March 1996 to become the Aircrew and Ground Training Squadron. It was reformed for the last time in this period on 1st November 1996 as No. 55 (Reserve) Squadron, being the Dominie T. Mk 1 squadron within No. 3 Flying Training School. It was current on 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

The RAF converted 6 Hercules C. Mk 1 to C. Mk 1K tankers. The first was delivered to the RAF on 5th July 1982. These equipped No. 1312 (In-Flight Refuelling) Flight which reformed on 20th April 1983 at Stanley, Falkland Islands. (Sources: Thetford, Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918 and Lake, Flying Units of the RAF.) According to Wikipaedia the flight moved to Mount Pleasant in 1986. It was current on 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

A short-lived tanker squadron was No. 50 that operated 6 Vulcan K. Mk 2 from the second half of 1982 until 31st March 1984 when it disbanded. (Sources: Lake, Thetford and RAFWEB) This was the RAF's last Vulcan squadron. It wasn't reformed before 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

No. 10 Squadron was reformed on VC.10 C. Mk 1 strategic transports on 1st July 1966. One of its 14 aircraft was leased to Rolls Royce in April 1969 to use as a test-bed for the RB.211 engine. It was returned to the RAF in 1975 who put it into storage and then scrapped it. Thetford says that the No. 10 Squadron was reduced from 13 to 9 aircraft as part of the Mason Defence Review, but the aircraft were put into storage rather than being scrapped. According to VC10.net their first flights after conversion to C. Mk 1K tanker/transport were between 11th June 1992 and 4th February 1997. VC10.net says that the 13 aircraft were delivered to No. 10 Squadron between 3rd December 1992 and 7th February 1997. Therefore, it didn't become a tanker-transport squadron until the middle of the 1990s. The squadron was current at 1st April 1998.

My copy of Thetford says that the RAF acquired 5 standard VC.10s from Gulf Air (which acquired them from BOAC), 4 Super VC.10s from East African Airways and 14 Super VC.10s from British Airways. That's a total of 23 aircraft. VC10.net and the UK Serials website say the total was 24 because they say 6 Standard VC.10s were acquired instead of 5. Thetford says that the first VC.10 K. Mk 2 flew at Filton on 22nd June 1982. No. 101 Squadron reformed on 1st May 1984 and it was current on 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

The VC10.net and UK Serials sites say that 14 of the 24 aircraft were converted to tankers. That is 5 Mk 2, 4 Mk 3 and 5 Mk 4 as follows:

• The RAF bought 5 Type 1101 Standard VC.10s in March and April 1978. They were converted to K. Mk 2 standard. They made their first flights between 22nd June 1982 and 26th March 1984. They were delivered to No. 101 Squadron between 25th July 1983 and 5th October 1984.
• The sixth Type 1101 was purchased on 20th September 1982. The initial plan was to use it for local training flights only, but it was found to be too different from the other RAF VC10s.
• The RAF bought 4 Type 1154 Super VC.10s on 30th September 1978. They were converted to K. Mk 3 tankers. They made their first flights between 4th July 1984 and 9th August 1985. They were delivered to No. 101 Squadron between 1st February 1985 and 27th March 1986.
• The RAF bought 14 Type 1151 Super VC.10s in April 1981 and converted 5 of them to K. Mk 4 tankers. However, this was not until the 1990s. They made their first flights between 29th July 1993 and 13th December 1995. They were delivered to No. 101 Squadron between 28th April 1994 and 8th March 1996.

Thetford in Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918 (Eighth Edition, 1988) says that 6 ex-British Airways Tristars were purchased in 1982 and 3 ex-PanAm aircraft were purchased in 1984. According to him the Tristar entered service with No. 216 Squadron in 1983, but Lake says that No. 216 Squadron reformed on 1st November 1984. Thetford says that the first two were operated as passenger-carrying transports and that the full conversion to tanker configuration was done by Marshall's of Cambridge. The first fully modified Tristar K. 1 left Marshalls in July 1985. The ex-British Airways aircraft would be K. Mk 1 tanker/freighters and the ex-PanAm would be K.C. Mk 2 tanker/passenger transports. All 9, fully-converted multi-role Tristars would be in service by 1990.

However, that didn't happen. Instead the 3 ex-PanAm aircraft were operated as C. Mk 2 passenger transports (one became the sole C. Mk 2A), 2 of the former British Airways became K.1 Mk 1 tanker/passenger transports and the other 4 became KC. Mk 1 that could operate as either tankers or passenger/cargo aircraft.

No. 216 Squadron was current at 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

According to Lake in Flying Units of the RAF the second-line tanker formations that existed during the thread were:

• No. 232 Operational Conversion Unit formed on 21st February 1955 and disbanded on 30th June 1965;
• The Tanker Training Flight formed on 1st July 1965 by re-designating the Victor element of No. 232 OCU;
• The Tanker Training Flight disbanded on 13th October 1969 to become the Victor Training Unit;
• Flying Units of the RAF doesn't have a separate entry for the Victor Training Unit;
• No. 232 OCU reformed on 6th February 1970 by merging the Victor (B.2) Training Flight* and the Victor Training Unit;
• No. 232 OCU disbanded for the last time on 4th April 1986.

*The Victor (B.2) Training Flight was originally formed in September 1961 as the Victor (B.2) Trials Unit. It became "C" Flight, No. 232 OCU on 1st February 1962 and the Victor (B.2) Training Flight on 1st February 1962. It was disbanded on 6th February 1970 and merged with the Victor Training Unit to become No. 232 OCU.

 

[freelander]

I see he was already perpetuating the lies about the reasons why the US invaded. The Organisation of Caribbean States didn't contact the US until after the invasion, not before it.

How unusual for the Americans to tell porky pies. They could not put the operation together at the drop of a hat considering how many different parts of the military that were involved. Technically the Americans invaded a colony of the UKs how would they like it if the UK decided to land troops say in Guam typical Americans shoot first talk latter.

 

[Riain]

RAF Tanker Squadrons and their Equipment IOTL from the POD to 1st April 1998

According to Humphrey Winn in the RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces the first tanker squadrons were Nos. 90 and 214 with effect from 1st April 1962. However, he went on to write that No. 214 Squadron had been flight refuelling since August 1958 and No. 90 Squadron went into the FR role in October 1961. Both squadrons were disbanded on 1st March 1965 due to the premature withdrawal from service of the Vickers Valiant.

According to Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918 a total of 30 Mk 1 Victors were converted to tankers by Avro at Woodford. That is: 6 two-point B(K) Mk 1A; 10 three-point K. Mk 1; and 14 K. Mk 1A. The B(K) Mk 1A began operations with No. 55 Squadron in June 1965 and the K. Mk 1 in December 1965 with No. 57 Squadron.

Victor Mk 1 tankers were also operated by No. 214 Squadron which reformed on 1st July 1966 and disbanded on 28th January 1977 as part of the Mason Defence Review. It wasn't reformed before 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

According to Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918 a total of 29 Mk 2 Victors were to be converted to tankers by Avro Woodford. However, the number was cut back to 24 in April 1975 as part of the Mason Defence Review. The first K. Mk 2 flew from Woodford on 1st March 1972 and the type entered service with No. 55 Squadron in July 1975. I don't know when it entered service with No. 57 Squadron. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

No. 57 Squadron operated Victor K. Mk 2s until it disbanded on 30th June 1986. It reformed on 1st July 1992 as No. 57 (Reserve) Squadron the Hercules Operational Training Unit by re-designating No. 242 Operational Conversion Unit. It was current on 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

No. 55 Squadron operated Victor K. Mk 2s until 15th October 1993 when it was disbanded. It was reformed the same day as No. 55 (Reserve) Squadron being, the VC.10 Operational Conversion Unit, by re-designating No. 241 Operational Conversion Unit. It was disbanded again on 31st March 1996 to become the Aircrew and Ground Training Squadron. It was reformed for the last time in this period on 1st November 1996 as No. 55 (Reserve) Squadron, being the Dominie T. Mk 1 squadron within No. 3 Flying Training School. It was current on 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

The RAF converted 6 Hercules C. Mk 1 to C. Mk 1K tankers. The first was delivered to the RAF on 5th July 1982. These equipped No. 1312 (In-Flight Refuelling) Flight which reformed on 20th April 1983 at Stanley, Falkland Islands. (Sources: Thetford, Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918 and Lake, Flying Units of the RAF.) According to Wikipaedia the flight moved to Mount Pleasant in 1986. It was current on 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

A short-lived tanker squadron was No. 50 that operated 6 Vulcan K. Mk 2 from the second half of 1982 until 31st March 1984 when it disbanded. (Sources: Lake, Thetford and RAFWEB) This was the RAF's last Vulcan squadron. It wasn't reformed before 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

No. 10 Squadron was reformed on VC.10 C. Mk 1 strategic transports on 1st July 1966. One of its 14 aircraft was leased to Rolls Royce in April 1969 to use as a test-bed for the RB.211 engine. It was returned to the RAF in 1975 who put it into storage and then scrapped it. Thetford says that the No. 10 Squadron was reduced from 13 to 9 aircraft as part of the Mason Defence Review, but the aircraft were put into storage rather than being scrapped. According to VC10.net their first flights after conversion to C. Mk 1K tanker/transport were between 11th June 1992 and 4th February 1997. VC10.net says that the 13 aircraft were delivered to No. 10 Squadron between 3rd December 1992 and 7th February 1997. Therefore, it didn't become a tanker-transport squadron until the middle of the 1990s. The squadron was current at 1st April 1998.

My copy of Thetford says that the RAF acquired 5 standard VC.10s from Gulf Air (which acquired them from BOAC), 4 Super VC.10s from East African Airways and 14 Super VC.10s from British Airways. That's a total of 23 aircraft. VC10.net and the UK Serials website say the total was 24 because they say 6 Standard VC.10s were acquired instead of 5. Thetford says that the first VC.10 K. Mk 2 flew at Filton on 22nd June 1982. No. 101 Squadron reformed on 1st May 1984 and it was current on 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

The VC10.net and UK Serials sites say that 14 of the 24 aircraft were converted to tankers. That is 5 Mk 2, 4 Mk 3 and 5 Mk 4 as follows:

• The RAF bought 5 Type 1101 Standard VC.10s in March and April 1978. They were converted to K. Mk 2 standard. They made their first flights between 22nd June 1982 and 26th March 1984. They were delivered to No. 101 Squadron between 25th July 1983 and 5th October 1984.
• The sixth Type 1101 was purchased on 20th September 1982. The initial plan was to use it for local training flights only, but it was found to be too different from the other RAF VC10s.
• The RAF bought 4 Type 1154 Super VC.20s on 30th September 1978. They were converted to K. Mk 3 tankers. They made their first flights between 4th July 1984 and 9th August 1985. They were delivered to No. 101 Squadron between 1st February 1985 and 27th March 1986.
• The RAF bought 14 Type 1151 Super VC.10s in April 1981 and converted 5 of them to K. Mk 4 tankers. However, this was not until the 1990s. They made their first flights between 29th July 1993 and 13th December 1995. They were delivered to No. 101 Squadron between 28th April 1994 and 8th March 1996.

Thetford in Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918 (Eighth Edition, 1988) says that 6 ex-British Airways Tristars were purchased in 1982 and 3 ex-PanAm aircraft were purchased in 1984. According to him the Tristar entered service with No. 216 Squadron in 1983, but Lake says that No. 216 Squadron reformed on 1st November 1984. Thetford says that the first two were operated as passenger-carrying transports and that the full conversion to tanker configuration was done by Marshall's of Cambridge. The first fully modified Tristar K. 1 left Marshalls in July 1985. The ex-British Airways aircraft would be K. Mk 1 tanker/freighters and the ex-PanAm would be K.C. Mk 2 tanker/passenger transports. All 9, fully-converted multi-role Tristars would be in service by 1990.

However, that didn't happen. Instead the 3 ex-PanAm aircraft were operated as C. Mk 2 passenger transports (one became the sole C. Mk 2A), 2 of the former British Airways became K.1 Mk 1 tanker/passenger transports and the other 4 became KC. Mk 1 that could operate as either tankers or passenger/cargo aircraft.

No. 216 Squadron was current at 1st April 1998. (Source: Lake, Flying Units of the RAF)

According to Lake in Flying Units of the RAF the second-line tanker formations that existed during the thread were:

• No. 232 Operational Conversion Unit formed on 21st February 1955 and disbanded on 30th June 1965;
• The Tanker Training Flight formed on 1st July 1965 by re-designating the Victor element of No. 232 OCU;
• The Tanker Training Flight disbanded on 13th October 1969 to become the Victor Training Unit;
• Flying Units of the RAF doesn't have a separate entry for the Victor Training Unit;
• No. 232 OCU reformed on 6th February 1970 by merging the Victor (B.2) Training Flight* and the Victor Training Unit;
• No. 232 OCU disbanded for the last time on 4th April 1986.

*The Victor (B.2) Training Flight was originally formed in September 1961 as the Victor (B.2) Trials Unit. It became "C" Flight, No. 232 OCU on 1st February 1962 and the Victor (B.2) Training Flight on 1st February 1962. It was disbanded on 6th February 1970 and merged with the Victor Training Unit to become No. 232 OCU.

I'd forgotten about the Victors, but otherwise I was pretty close.

It's important to note that the Tristars are not 'normal' tankers because they can only service 1 aircraft at a time, so they cannot refuel strike package of 4-8 aircraft in short time like a Victor or VC10 and send them on their way. What they can do is refuel a small number of tactical aircraft over and over on a ferry flight to Ascension or the Falklands or transfer a big amount of fuel to a big aircraft like a Nimrod, Hercules, VC10 or another Tristar with the big Mk17B HDU like on a Blackbuck or Cadbury mission.

 

[Riain]

If you want to do a rewrite asap go right ahead otherwise find something else your in the mood to do right about.

That, or a sequel into the 21st century...

Well done.

Pens down and give it time to settle, then do Mk 2. If it takes your fancy a 21st century version would be neat.

Wonderful. Great thread.

BAOR and RAFG were both stood down during 1994

In addition there were major cuts to the reserves (including my glorious RNR) and Britain like everyone else entered the 'peace dividend' years and in my opinion cut too deeply - particularly in manpower.

Thanks, I've learned a hell of a lot which was the whole point of the exercise, but that's the problem.

Case in point when reading about the Gulf War because that was where I was up to I learned that the Tornado struggled with availability in the leadup to the fighting because it was designed to fight from home bases with major industrial backing, it entered RAF service in 1979. In contrast the TSR2 was justified in the 60s by it's East of Suez role, or at least in part, and in 1965 there were plans for at least a sqn in Singapore with the FEAF (IOTL 1971) and a wing in Cyprus with the NEAF (IOTL 1974). Given it's design was for 'decentralised' operations would it do better than the Tornado in the Gulf War?

These are the sorts of things I'm still interested in, not taking this TL up to the present day.

 

[ArtosStark]

How unusual for the Americans to tell porky pies. They could not put the operation together at the drop of a hat considering how many different parts of the military that were involved. Technically the Americans invaded a colony of the UKs how would they like it if the UK decided to land troops say in Guam typical Americans shoot first talk latter.

Its a common condition among nations that think they can get away with it. Not distinctly American.