A Sápmi state

[Shtudmuffin]

Would it be possible for the Sami people (the Lapplanders) of Northern Scandinavia to form their own nation sometime in the Middle Ages? Perhaps one that stretched from central Norway to the Kola Peninsula, and centered in Murmansk?

By the way, I would guess that its borders would look something like this:

 

[Zuvarq]

I don't think a united state in that area is sustainable.

 

[Jurgen Wullenwever]

The Sami were too few and far between, and what need would they have of a state? Some parts of this area was also coinhabited by Scandinavians, which makes a Sami state even more difficult.

 

[Dyranum]

With those borders? No chance at all. With much reduced borders? Very unlikely, considering the area, society, etc..
Furthermore, based out of Murmansk? Totally impossible, as Murmansk was founded during the Russian Civil War, IIRC.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Well, when I was thinking about alternate history states around the Baltic region and Scandinavia, I did make up "Lapland" - a nation very similar to yours.

I tried to stick as much as possible to the map you used to (from wikipedia.org I guess), but I did remove the areas on the Kola peninsula to form the Kola Republic...

I don't think it is as implausible or unlikely as suggested by the previous two posts. I'm not an expert on Scandinavia or whatever, but 'why not?!'
I mean, it is true that you can't consider it a very 'strong' nation, but anyway it could be possible, couldn't it?
Especially if the Swedes, Norwegians and Finns hadn't conquered the land in north that easily and quickly. If they might well have waited a little longer to do this, and if the Sami or Laplanders had had a bit more unity, and if they had won a 'Scando-Sami War' by chance, with a bit of luck, what would be possible then...?

Anyway, I don't think it's such a stupid idea or whatever!

 

[KnightofTempest]

The Sami of the Time are almost entirely nomadic, folllowing herds of reindeer along their routes of migration. Not only is this not condusive to a state, but the Sami lack the numbers and the organization to successfully repel any attempts by sweden and norway to push north.

I think if the Sami were to form a state it would be because their nomadic lifestyle is no longer sustainable and to survive they must become sedentary.

Furthermore this state would only be further and further encroached upon by the more numerous, better equipped, and better organized Norwegians and Swedes, until there's barely anything left of it outside the most northerly or most mountainous areas.

Also Murmansk as a population center was not founded until the 20th century. The Sami wouldn't be able to use it as their capitol in the middle ages.

Also it depends on what part of the middle ages you want this to happen in. The further in time you go the more likely the Sami are to be conquered outright. It would have to form in the Early Middle Ages and grow strong enough that by the time the Swedes and Norwegians unify and go North, their advance can be checked by the Saami. That means a date around 900 or earlier for the founding of your Sami state. 1000 will be too late, not to mention the high or late middle ages.

Also, I'm not entirely sure the Sami had Iron Working until relatively late in the game. I believe they traded for iron tools until around 1330 or so, preferring to work bone, horn, and leather up until then.

 

[Malta]

Mongolia of the Artic North

 

[kasumigenx]

It is more feasible that that area is under Finnish control.

 

[KnightofTempest]

Mongolia of the Artic North

LOL! Watch out the Reindeer Riders of the Sami Empire are coming for you!

 

[ingemann]

Seing that the area would have a Scandinavian majority, the byggest minorities would be Russians, Finns and Kvens (in that order), I find it unlikely that the Saami with less than 5 percent could make a state in this area.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Seing that the area would have a Scandinavian majority, the byggest minorities would be Russians, Finns and Kvens (in that order), I find it unlikely that the Saami with less than 5 percent could make a state in this area.

That's true, but if the region nowadays has Scandinavians living in it, that doesn't mean that they always lived there... so it doesn't have to be the case that Sápmi is dominated by Scandinavians.


And, what if the Sápmi were a lot more united in an alternate history timeline, and got the area a lot more densely populated?
Then they might even expel the Scandinavian in a Lapland Civil War or something like that.

What I just wanted to point out, in fact, is that you should not reject the idea because of arguments that applied in history or today. I mean, alternate history can make everything possible, as long as you have enough fantasy, and good arguments!

 

[Olligarchy]

That's true, but if the region nowadays has Scandinavians living in it, that doesn't mean that they always lived there... so it doesn't have to be the case that Sápmi is dominated by Scandinavians.


And, what if the Sápmi were a lot more united in an alternate history timeline, and got the area a lot more densely populated?
Then they might even expel the Scandinavian in a Lapland Civil War or something like that.

What I just wanted to point out, in fact, is that you should not reject the idea because of arguments that applied in history or today. I mean, alternate history can make everything possible, as long as you have enough fantasy, and good arguments!

It's not just a problem of numbers and unity (though those stop this as well) but the fact that unlike the other "tribes" in this region the Sami were never to my knowledge very warlike. This will eventually result in them being brought to heel under one of the stronger tribes/nations that dot the North. The best they can really hope for unless ASB goes on and gives them assault rifles in the 5th century is to be an -important- minority with some say in how things.

A good example is in my TL where the Kola and much of Lappland under the Kingdom of Finland is Sami and they even have their own Duke who can pretty much negotiate with the King to keep their way of life and certain privilidges.

 

[DrakonFin]

The Sami never had the numbers, the organization or the technology to create a nation that could rival a Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish power. One of the main reasons is their nomadic, reindeer-herding lifestyle. And that is due to the fact that they live so damn north they can't really do anything else for a living, as a people that is.

The Sami used to enjoy much bigger living areas in Finland and Sweden until the 16th and the 17th centuries, even, before the southern peoples practicing slash-and-burn agriculture moved north and took over those areas. Central and even parts of the southern Finland have a lot of place names derived from the Sami language due to that. And there were very small, isolated Sami communities living in the southern parts of Finland even in the 18th century - pagans, no less.

The point is that the OTL showed that Sami culture and technology, as it has been, would not allow the people to succesfully compete with Swedes or Finns for those more temperate lands south of today's Lapland. It would be pretty hard to devise ways their culture could change so much and their numbers grow in such a major fashion that they could expel the encroaching Swedes and Finns and forge a nation of their own.

Incidentally, I think the best way to get an actual Sami state, at least in name, would be to devise a plan to get the USSR to annex a part of the Finnish (and possibly Norwegian) Lapland in 1944-45 and to establish a Sami ASSR there as a Sami homeland under the fatherly guidance of the Soviet government. Maybe I'll write a TL about that at some point.

 

[Sharkani Rend]

A puppet-"state" as imperial quasi-province of Russia formed in early 1800es. ( The period until the Crimmean war when Russia was "disciplined" and mainly 1810-es - the time of the attempt for Russian Hawaii and Fort Ross @Frisko ).

The rationale behind this - to grab Narvik securing "warm waters" port for the Empire. ( Narvich , Нарвич , as RU name )

This PoD is not Medieval , but it implies conflict with both Norway and Sweden, cause it cuts off their Far north.

 

[Dyranum]

You know, being from northern Scandinavia, I think I know enough about the subject to say that those borders are pretty impossible.
Why? Well, they include northern Tröndelag and Jamtland, for one, the former being a part of Tröndelag which is an important Norwegian region, and the latter existed as an entity throughout the Middle Ages (actually, it looks like that map places Trondheim in your hypothetical Sami state. Trondheim is the capital of Tröndelag). The parts in that map north of those might be less populated early on, but it is inevitable that stronger states from the south will seize control of those lands as well, unless a situation arises where it is not. E.g. wars exhausting resources, the area being a buffer or puppet state of some kind, etc..

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

The Sami never had the numbers, the organization or the technology to create a nation that could rival a Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish power. One of the main reasons is their nomadic, reindeer-herding lifestyle. And that is due to the fact that they live so damn north they can't really do anything else for a living, as a people that is.

The Sami used to enjoy much bigger living areas in Finland and Sweden until the 16th and the 17th centuries, even, before the southern peoples practicing slash-and-burn agriculture moved north and took over those areas. Central and even parts of the southern Finland have a lot of place names derived from the Sami language due to that. And there were very small, isolated Sami communities living in the southern parts of Finland even in the 18th century - pagans, no less.
...
It would be pretty hard to devise ways their culture could change so much and their numbers grow in such a major fashion that they could expel the encroaching Swedes and Finns and forge a nation of their own.

Incidentally, I think the best way to get an actual Sami state, at least in name, would be to devise a plan to get the USSR to annex a part of the Finnish (and possibly Norwegian) Lapland in 1944-45 and to establish a Sami ASSR there as a Sami homeland under the fatherly guidance of the Soviet government. Maybe I'll write a TL about that at some point.

If you would write a timline about Lapland, please let me know, because I'm already quite curious. Actually, I would not make it a Russian autonomous republic, but rather a Swedish puppet state or something like that...

... they include northern Tröndelag and Jamtland, for one, the former being a part of Tröndelag which is an important Norwegian region, and the latter existed as an entity throughout the Middle Ages (actually, it looks like that map places Trondheim in your hypothetical Sami state. Trondheim is the capital of Tröndelag). The parts in that map north of those might be less populated early on, but it is inevitable that stronger states from the south will seize control of those lands as well, unless a situation arises where it is not. E.g. wars exhausting resources, the area being a buffer or puppet state of some kind, etc..

Yes, that's all quite true, I now see... But, indeed, a puppet state could be an idea.

It's not just a problem of numbers and unity (though those stop this as well) but the fact that unlike the other "tribes" in this region the Sami were never to my knowledge very warlike. This will eventually result in them being brought to heel under one of the stronger tribes/nations that dot the North. The best they can really hope for unless ASB goes on and gives them assault rifles in the 5th century is to be an -important- minority with some say in how things.

... much of Lappland under the Kingdom of Finland is Sami and they even have their own Duke who can pretty much negotiate with the King to keep their way of life and certain privilidges.

Oh, that's a pity, that they aren't very warlike... Then you'll get the same as the Indians had in the US; being expelled to poor regions... isn't it?

And, indeed, it could be a more plausible idea for instance to create an "Autonomous Republic of Lapland" that has an autonomous status within either (a) Norway, (b) Sweden, (c) Finland or (d) Russia, and which comprises all areas of the map, except the major Norwegian areas and except the areas on the Kola Peninsula... What about that?
(I would prefer Sweden or Finland being the 'possessor' and not Norway or Russia, but anyway...)

 

[Olligarchy]

Oh, that's a pity, that they aren't very warlike... Then you'll get the same as the Indians had in the US; being expelled to poor regions... isn't it?

And, indeed, it could be a more plausible idea for instance to create an "Autonomous Republic of Lapland" that has an autonomous status within either (a) Norway, (b) Sweden, (c) Finland or (d) Russia, and which comprises all areas of the map, except the major Norwegian areas and except the areas on the Kola Peninsula... What about that?
(I would prefer Sweden or Finland being the 'possessor' and not Norway or Russia, but anyway...)

Yeah, it is. Though I like to think of us Nordics as being better than that. I mean for us all of this is ANCIENT history. "Finns" have lived in Finland for thousands of years, and the Norse tribes to the west maybe even longer. This was before Denmark was even a Kingdom which is a pretty big deal. Slowly throughout history the Nordic tribes just pushed further and further north and the Sami ended up living in the most northern parts.

However it isn't all bad! They typically have some pretty good rights and Finnish government for one protects their rights and language ensuring that their cultural tradition will survive. I might actually use this idea in my TL when we get to the Age of Enlightenment.

 

[Petike]

If it was ever founded as an independent country, I could see it exist within the territory of OTL Finnmark, Finnish Lappland and parts of the Kola peninsula. But not anywhere south of those places - it would not do the Samis any favours, both on a logistical level and on a level of rivalry with the various Scandinavian states.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

If it was ever founded as an independent country, I could see it exist within the territory of OTL Finnmark, Finnish Lappland and parts of the Kola peninsula. But not anywhere south of those places - it would not do the Samis any favours, both on a logistical level and on a level of rivalry with the various Scandinavian states.

So you wouldn't take Swedish areas?

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

I might actually use this idea in my TL when we get to the Age of Enlightenment.

Well, ole hyvä, then - and if you're going to use it, please let me know!