Seems to me that the IJN air attacks should have done more against the battleships - these would still be veterans, and the R's were big, slow, and with inadequate AA suites.
But it's not impossible.
But it's not impossible.
A Rising Sun on Tropical Seas (a story from a Battle at Dawn)
- Thread starter galveston bay
- Start date
second mission of the day so crew fatigue does factor in, and these were long missions based out of Saigon
the JANF bombers still operating out of Saigon have plenty of supplies, while the others are operating from Brunei and that base has not been attacked so they have adequate stocks
the Allied air attacks mainly hit the JAAF bases in Malaya except for a strike by B17s that damaged a fighter base in Borneo (which interrupted fighter operations out of that for a couple of days)
Battle of the Straits of Malacca
Battle of the Straits of Malacca February 11
By dawn the evacuation convoy, Force D, is 75 nautical miles from Singapore. The fleet consists of 2 battleships, 2 light cruisers, 4 destroyers, 1 minesweeper, 16 armed trawlers, and 180,000 tons of merchant shipping (14 ships). Fighter cover however is limited to a handful of Hurricanes operating out of Palembang and a similar number of Dutch Buffalo fighters.
The Japanese naval aviators of the 22nd and 24th Flotilla are however determined to get the British battleships after the attempt yesterday and the Japanese Navy is furious about the criticism from the Army.
At 0930 hours a Mavis flying boat spots the British convoy steaming up the Straits of Malacca, now 135 nautical miles from Singapore. Soon after the contact report reaches the forward fighter field at Bangkok, as well as the bomber bases at Brunei, Saigon and Bangkok, and every available bomber takes off.
The first attack is from a force of 21 Betty bombers carrying torpedoes, escorted by 18 Zeroes who quickly deal with the fighter escort, clearing the way for the bombers. Breaking into 4 groups of 6 bombers each, the torpedo bombers attack both of the battleships first. Allied gunners manage to down 2 of the bombers and damage several more, but the attack is a near perfect hammer and anvil attack, and while the 2 battleships manage to dodge most, they both are hit. The Revenge is hit by 3 torpedoes, one of which takes her steering and much of her stern, another blows off 30 feet of her bow, and a final one that hits her in her engine spaces, flooding them and bringing her to a halt. The Royal Sovereign manages to dodge all but one, which takes out one of her boiler rooms and slows her to 12 knots. Admiral Bonham Carter, aboard the cruiser Danae is forced to make the difficult decision of ordering the fleet to continue, leaving Revenge behind attended only by a pair of trawlers and a minesweeper to take off the wounded and begin ferrying men and taking them to nearby Sumatra.
At 1300 hours a force of 27 Nell level bombers arrives, and seeing the battleship below apparently helpless, attack the Revenge. She is adrift and her crew is still attempting to deal with flooding and get her engines working when over 108 bombs fall around her. At least 10 hit her, leaving her ablaze from bow to stern and inflicting devastating casualties. By 1310 hours her surviving senior officer orders her abandoned and at least 600 men make into the water before fires reach her magazines and she detonates. Nearly half manage to swim or drift to Sumatra or are rescued by her consorts but of her crew of nearly 1,000 men (plus 400 passengers) only 203 survive the sinking and Japanese captivity while another 100 are rescued.
The fleet is attacked again at 1340 hours by 27 Betty level bombers and 18 Betty torpedo bombers, this time without escort as the 18 fighters assigned missed the rendezvous due to cloud cover. This does not matter in this case however as there are no Allied fighters available to provide air cover either. Torpedo bombers go in first, concentrating once again on the battleship, and the damage she suffered earlier turns out to be fatal for the Royal Sovereign as she cannot get out of the way quickly enough. The number of torpedoes that hit her is unknown as so many hit her in quick succession that the detonation of her aft magazine and chain reaction that follows that results in the loss of 900 crew and 500 passengers happens to quickly for the handful of survivors to clarify. Even the Japanese pilots are shocked by her sudden demise. Only 2 of the Japanese torpedo bombers are downed, although several more are damaged. The level bombers hurriedly shift their target to the cruiser Durban, and in a outstanding attack, hit her with 8 bombs that leaves her burning and out of action, and soon after that abandoned.
The Allies get lucky soon after that as an afternoon rain squall shields them from another Japanese attack force of 21 level bombers that overflies them but misses them due to cloud cover. This force bombs Singapore harbor on their way home, inflicting some damage to central Singapore and killing several hundred civilians and numerous fires.
The long distance from the Japanese bases means that by late afternoon the convoy is safe from attack from all but Thailand as the other bases cannot rearm and refuel their bombers in time for them to reach the Allied fleet before dark. With only 12 Betty bombers and 9 Nell bombers available for action as the rest need mechanical work or have battle damage, this force of high level bombers makes a final attack at 1700 hours, concentrating on the cruiser Danae, but skilled ship handling by the British and fatigue on the part of the Japanese, who are flying their sixth mission in three days, results in nothing but misses.
By nightfall the convoy is safe, and by the next morning is out of range of Japanese bombers. At a cost of 2 battleships and a light cruiser, along with nearly 2,000 men, the Royal Navy, along with the US Navy, have managed to evacuate approximately 29,000 troops and 5,000 civilians.
The point is made bluntly that the battleship is no longer the queen of the seas in the face of air power.
By dawn the evacuation convoy, Force D, is 75 nautical miles from Singapore. The fleet consists of 2 battleships, 2 light cruisers, 4 destroyers, 1 minesweeper, 16 armed trawlers, and 180,000 tons of merchant shipping (14 ships). Fighter cover however is limited to a handful of Hurricanes operating out of Palembang and a similar number of Dutch Buffalo fighters.
The Japanese naval aviators of the 22nd and 24th Flotilla are however determined to get the British battleships after the attempt yesterday and the Japanese Navy is furious about the criticism from the Army.
At 0930 hours a Mavis flying boat spots the British convoy steaming up the Straits of Malacca, now 135 nautical miles from Singapore. Soon after the contact report reaches the forward fighter field at Bangkok, as well as the bomber bases at Brunei, Saigon and Bangkok, and every available bomber takes off.
The first attack is from a force of 21 Betty bombers carrying torpedoes, escorted by 18 Zeroes who quickly deal with the fighter escort, clearing the way for the bombers. Breaking into 4 groups of 6 bombers each, the torpedo bombers attack both of the battleships first. Allied gunners manage to down 2 of the bombers and damage several more, but the attack is a near perfect hammer and anvil attack, and while the 2 battleships manage to dodge most, they both are hit. The Revenge is hit by 3 torpedoes, one of which takes her steering and much of her stern, another blows off 30 feet of her bow, and a final one that hits her in her engine spaces, flooding them and bringing her to a halt. The Royal Sovereign manages to dodge all but one, which takes out one of her boiler rooms and slows her to 12 knots. Admiral Bonham Carter, aboard the cruiser Danae is forced to make the difficult decision of ordering the fleet to continue, leaving Revenge behind attended only by a pair of trawlers and a minesweeper to take off the wounded and begin ferrying men and taking them to nearby Sumatra.
At 1300 hours a force of 27 Nell level bombers arrives, and seeing the battleship below apparently helpless, attack the Revenge. She is adrift and her crew is still attempting to deal with flooding and get her engines working when over 108 bombs fall around her. At least 10 hit her, leaving her ablaze from bow to stern and inflicting devastating casualties. By 1310 hours her surviving senior officer orders her abandoned and at least 600 men make into the water before fires reach her magazines and she detonates. Nearly half manage to swim or drift to Sumatra or are rescued by her consorts but of her crew of nearly 1,000 men (plus 400 passengers) only 203 survive the sinking and Japanese captivity while another 100 are rescued.
The fleet is attacked again at 1340 hours by 27 Betty level bombers and 18 Betty torpedo bombers, this time without escort as the 18 fighters assigned missed the rendezvous due to cloud cover. This does not matter in this case however as there are no Allied fighters available to provide air cover either. Torpedo bombers go in first, concentrating once again on the battleship, and the damage she suffered earlier turns out to be fatal for the Royal Sovereign as she cannot get out of the way quickly enough. The number of torpedoes that hit her is unknown as so many hit her in quick succession that the detonation of her aft magazine and chain reaction that follows that results in the loss of 900 crew and 500 passengers happens to quickly for the handful of survivors to clarify. Even the Japanese pilots are shocked by her sudden demise. Only 2 of the Japanese torpedo bombers are downed, although several more are damaged. The level bombers hurriedly shift their target to the cruiser Durban, and in a outstanding attack, hit her with 8 bombs that leaves her burning and out of action, and soon after that abandoned.
The Allies get lucky soon after that as an afternoon rain squall shields them from another Japanese attack force of 21 level bombers that overflies them but misses them due to cloud cover. This force bombs Singapore harbor on their way home, inflicting some damage to central Singapore and killing several hundred civilians and numerous fires.
The long distance from the Japanese bases means that by late afternoon the convoy is safe from attack from all but Thailand as the other bases cannot rearm and refuel their bombers in time for them to reach the Allied fleet before dark. With only 12 Betty bombers and 9 Nell bombers available for action as the rest need mechanical work or have battle damage, this force of high level bombers makes a final attack at 1700 hours, concentrating on the cruiser Danae, but skilled ship handling by the British and fatigue on the part of the Japanese, who are flying their sixth mission in three days, results in nothing but misses.
By nightfall the convoy is safe, and by the next morning is out of range of Japanese bombers. At a cost of 2 battleships and a light cruiser, along with nearly 2,000 men, the Royal Navy, along with the US Navy, have managed to evacuate approximately 29,000 troops and 5,000 civilians.
The point is made bluntly that the battleship is no longer the queen of the seas in the face of air power.
authors notes: Doctrine would require the Japanese attack aircraft to concentrate on the battleships, then cruisers and then any other warships before attacking merchant shipping.
The 2 old battleships were doomed
that is it for the weekend as a busy week is ahead for me
The 2 old battleships were doomed
that is it for the weekend as a busy week is ahead for me
Hopefully the British can learn this lesson without losing fast fleet units this time. It looks like the Eastern Fleet Escort Force that started the war is essentially gone, but Force Z is still intact. A collision with Inoue's force of two Kongo-class ships could be interesting as the Kongos were essentially rebuilt Lion-class battlecruisers. Of course, the Japanese heavy cruisers would almost certainly tip the balance of the engagement.
I think this compensates for my criticisms of the survival of the "R" battleships over the weekend.
Still, the RN comes out ahead of the game, so far: in OTL it lost a KGV-class battleship and the Repulse. Here it's lost two R-class battleships. I know which I'd prefer to lose.
The point is these two ships, which were obsolescent at best, provided a serious hit to the Japanese forces attacking Singapore which will hurt Japan going forward, and their sacrifices allowed the convoy of evacuees to reach safety. No matter what the Allied forces in the area are outnumbered and facing more modern forces with air power where they none. The sinking of these ships, the deaths of the sailors and the prolonged suffering of those to be taken prisoner in Singapore are unfortunate, but war has costs and here the sacrifices have been worthwhile and not wasted.
Right.
They died honorably executing a successful mission. A mission that takes some of the sting out of the loss of Singapore. Sort of a Dunkirk of the Far East.
Whereas OTL Prince of Wales and Repulse, while they died honorably, were sunk in a mission that utterly failed.
The japanese will see the conquest of Singapore asa phyrric victory in the end. And since the Britts are putting up a better fight now and fight to the end Churchill will make a speach how the soldiers fought against overwelming odds and fought until the bitter end.
Considering the Japanese loses i think they will go on the defensive soon, they are losing to many ships
Considering the Japanese loses i think they will go on the defensive soon, they are losing to many ships
In the long run, will the Japanese get less "victory disease" this time around? They've lost a lot more than OTL and they know it.
That might actually make them more dangerous, not less, even though in the long run they're pretty much doomed.
That might actually make them more dangerous, not less, even though in the long run they're pretty much doomed.
Errr, no they don't. They only know their losses here. And their reactions now depend on their estimates of losses compiled during the initial planning stages. Maybe they still think they're ahead of the game?
Driftless
Donor
Weren't they somewhat astonished on the string of success they had at the OTL beginning?
yes they were, and the very cheap cost (a few destroyers and submarines, along with a few lesser vessels), while Army casualties were acceptable to light depending
victory disease is a bit less likely but the Japanese will have every reason to be pleased by the time the Dutch East Indies, British East Indies,. Malaya, Singapore, Burma, and Philippines are secured
They obviously don't know what happened OTL, but they know they've lost carriers and lots and lots and lots of soldiers.
the carriers are about to take center stage again, and two of those actions will directly affect the situation in the Malay Barrier
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...he-carrier-war-in-the-pacific-1942-44.419259/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...he-carrier-war-in-the-pacific-1942-44.419259/