A Rhodesian Dream...
- Thread starter Nicksplace27
- Start date
Rhodes is priemier of Cape Colony. The voting act is internal Cape affairs. I don't think Chamberlain (The Colonial Secretary) would get too involved anyway. He didn't when it turned the other way with the Glan Gray Acts (The first apartheid legestlation).
Probably fairly mixed. A lot of the population and government in London will probably support the change. Both because it appeals to their pride about the advancement of British culture and imperial power and also because a S Africa settled more with the support of the local population means less conflict and hence less money.
On the other hand the more racist elements and those looking for quick gains by seizing African lands are going to be unhappy. It wasn't just the Boer's historically, a lot of the white Rhodes brought into found Rhodesia were only too glad to seize lands and use forced labour. Similarly there will be elements elsewhere, especially in India perhaps, who will dislike the idea of more power, let alone equality for natives and the president it sets elsewhere. Could go either way in India. Successes in S Africa might inspire the moderates more and strengthen the position of radicals in London so they are able to bring reforms in faster. Or might make the more conservative elements more determined to oppose reform. [Could also have an impact on the various conservative princes and chiefs that were often agents of indirect rule].
Steve
Nicksplace27
Interesting idea. Looking forward to see how it develops. Think there would be a lot more resistance to such reforms but would have loved to have seen it developed.
Like the idea of Mugabe as a screen villain. At least in this timeline he can't do anything like the damage he's doing to Zimbabwe in ours. [Think most Zimbabweans would love us to take his current rant seriously and hang the evil little scumbag!
]
One other conflict in this area about this time that will be affected. [Can't remember exactly when]. When was the German massacre of the peoples of German SW Africa. With the new liberalism in the Cape there will be pressure to avoid such treatment by the Germans. Also it is likely that if they behave the same there will be a lot of political [and probably other] support of the natives by both empowered blacks and liberal whites in S Africa.
Steve
Interesting idea. Looking forward to see how it develops. Think there would be a lot more resistance to such reforms but would have loved to have seen it developed.
Like the idea of Mugabe as a screen villain. At least in this timeline he can't do anything like the damage he's doing to Zimbabwe in ours. [Think most Zimbabweans would love us to take his current rant seriously and hang the evil little scumbag!
]One other conflict in this area about this time that will be affected. [Can't remember exactly when]. When was the German massacre of the peoples of German SW Africa. With the new liberalism in the Cape there will be pressure to avoid such treatment by the Germans. Also it is likely that if they behave the same there will be a lot of political [and probably other] support of the natives by both empowered blacks and liberal whites in S Africa.
Steve
Well, The racist people, at least in South Africa, will go to the Transvaal like in the 2nd Voortrekkers. And in 1891, Rhodes didn't have too many people in Rhodesia he brought elsewhere.
I can't say too much about the precedent it sets elsewhere, but India will be interesting to say the least.
Nicksplace27
Interesting idea. Looking forward to see how it develops. Think there would be a lot more resistance to such reforms but would have loved to have seen it developed.
Like the idea of Mugabe as a screen villain. At least in this timeline he can't do anything like the damage he's doing to Zimbabwe in ours. [Think most Zimbabweans would love us to take his current rant seriously and hang the evil little scumbag!
One other conflict in this area about this time that will be affected. [Can't remember exactly when]. When was the German massacre of the peoples of German SW Africa. With the new liberalism in the Cape there will be pressure to avoid such treatment by the Germans. Also it is likely that if they behave the same there will be a lot of political [and probably other] support of the natives by both empowered blacks and liberal whites in S Africa.
Steve
Cecil Rhodes was a very powerful figure and set the tone with how South Africans would deal with blacks for the 100 years. If he set the tone differently and worked with the natives on his terms instead of against them... But I'll post an important update that will answer your questions later.
Damn, I've just finished researching the subject and I'll post a good update by Tuesday.
Last edited:
Passit
I wouldn't say its that near but once Leopold is no longer able to keep details a secret there will probably be even more reaction from Britain as it will have a stronger moral position itself. [Provided it doesn't alienate too many other nations by coming across as too moral].
Also waiting for an update but sounds like it will be a couple of days. However may well be worth the wait.
Steve
Maybe the British apply pressure on Belgium to turn the colony over to British rule. Thus, with the possibility of a fully British Cape to Cairo RR, might the Great War be avoided?
Maybe the British apply pressure on Belgium to turn the colony over to British rule. Thus, with the possibility of a fully British Cape to Cairo RR, might the Great War be avoided?
Eh, I don't think WWI (if that's what you mean by the Great War) will be avoided because of Africa. But finishing the Cape to Cairo would certainly be a coup and probably be much helpful in Africa's development. And I REALLY doubt the Belgians would turn the Congo over to the Brits without a huge war.
Besides, after WWI the Congo could be completely bypassed by the Cape to Cairo RR - through Rhodesia into the formerly German East Africa, then back into British East Africa, then Uganda, Sudan and Egypt. That would likely be the best route anyways.
Let's remember that up until his death Leopold II was the sole owner of the Congo, it wasn't the Belgians who ran the colony. It was Leopold himself, and really the world hadn't heard much about the atrocities in the Congo yet. Not until about 1900 or so when E.D. Morel came onto the scene.
Good and well written timeline
I agree totally, Rhodes with his great personality and influence I think he could reduce a lot the possible resistances against this politic of integration.
Hmm.. respect to the Free State of congo I think possibily the things could pursue a similar way than in OTL although with a schedule some years before because the british and Rhodes pressure: in OTL if I remember well an Investigation made by the Belgium parliament give faith of the terrible conditions of the Free State of Congo under the personal rule of king Leopold II, this and the pressure from belgian public opinion and politicians obligated Leopold to give the Free State to Belgium government as a colony in 1908, in TTL the things could go faster and Congo is made a Belgium colony in some years before than in OTL (instead 1908 could be 1900 for example).
Congo is the only Belgium possesion although it was through personal rule of Leopold II, the Belgian government by prestige and could be economic reasons would prefer to see Congo under direct belgian rule (no more Free State of Congo) instead of british, I doubt also that the british want to press very hard to the belgians to get a colony, they want, at least as they say publicily, to end the very harsh and barbarian treatment that receives the black population in Congo, not to get another colony, also if the british say that they want rule the Congo, the international opinion would consider the british interest more a colonialist expansion that a defense of the human rights apart of alienating the relations with the Belgium government.
Also, we have to think that if as it seems probable we have a Second Boer War as in OTL the british will have sufficient preocupations to add pressing the Belgium government, alienating this and the international opinion to add another colony that surely will cost a lot to govern (after the brutal mess of Leopold II), so in my opinion the most probable outcome would be see Free State of Congo given to the Belgium goverment as colony after Parliament and Belgian politicians and public opinion claims against Leopold II.
Herero and Hotento tribes rebelled against germans in 1904-06 because the very hard german government of SW Africa.
Waiting with great interest new updates
Originally posted by Nicksplace27
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevep
Nicksplace27
Interesting idea. Looking forward to see how it develops. Think there would be a lot more resistance to such reforms but would have loved to have seen it developed.
Like the idea of Mugabe as a screen villain. At least in this timeline he can't do anything like the damage he's doing to Zimbabwe in ours. [Think most Zimbabweans would love us to take his current rant seriously and hang the evil little scumbag!
One other conflict in this area about this time that will be affected. [Can't remember exactly when]. When was the German massacre of the peoples of German SW Africa. With the new liberalism in the Cape there will be pressure to avoid such treatment by the Germans. Also it is likely that if they behave the same there will be a lot of political [and probably other] support of the natives by both empowered blacks and liberal whites in S Africa.
Steve
Cecil Rhodes was a very powerful figure and set the tone with how South Africans would deal with blacks for the 100 years. If he set the tone differently and worked with the natives on his terms instead of against them... But I'll post an important update that will answer your questions later.
I agree totally, Rhodes with his great personality and influence I think he could reduce a lot the possible resistances against this politic of integration.
Originally posted by Wendell
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Passit
Hey, this is a good and interesting read.I wonder how this Cecil(and the British) will react to the atrocities in the nearby Congo.
Waiting for update here.
Maybe the British apply pressure on Belgium to turn the colony over to British rule. Thus, with the possibility of a fully British Cape to Cairo RR, might the Great War be avoided?
Hmm.. respect to the Free State of congo I think possibily the things could pursue a similar way than in OTL although with a schedule some years before because the british and Rhodes pressure: in OTL if I remember well an Investigation made by the Belgium parliament give faith of the terrible conditions of the Free State of Congo under the personal rule of king Leopold II, this and the pressure from belgian public opinion and politicians obligated Leopold to give the Free State to Belgium government as a colony in 1908, in TTL the things could go faster and Congo is made a Belgium colony in some years before than in OTL (instead 1908 could be 1900 for example).
Congo is the only Belgium possesion although it was through personal rule of Leopold II, the Belgian government by prestige and could be economic reasons would prefer to see Congo under direct belgian rule (no more Free State of Congo) instead of british, I doubt also that the british want to press very hard to the belgians to get a colony, they want, at least as they say publicily, to end the very harsh and barbarian treatment that receives the black population in Congo, not to get another colony, also if the british say that they want rule the Congo, the international opinion would consider the british interest more a colonialist expansion that a defense of the human rights apart of alienating the relations with the Belgium government.
Also, we have to think that if as it seems probable we have a Second Boer War as in OTL the british will have sufficient preocupations to add pressing the Belgium government, alienating this and the international opinion to add another colony that surely will cost a lot to govern (after the brutal mess of Leopold II), so in my opinion the most probable outcome would be see Free State of Congo given to the Belgium goverment as colony after Parliament and Belgian politicians and public opinion claims against Leopold II.
Herero and Hotento tribes rebelled against germans in 1904-06 because the very hard german government of SW Africa.
Waiting with great interest new updates
Don't forget the Namaqua. The thing that always got me about that particular rebellion is that the Africans didn't attack priests and left most homesteads alone, most of the numerous Congo uprisings did the exact same thing.
Sad what happened though, the Germans under Lothar von Trotha drove the Herero and Namaqua into the Omaheke Desert where around 80% of them perished.
Still, I hope that nothing like that happens in this TL. Really, really hope.
Yes, that is the conference to which I was referring. Indeed, it was not World War I until there was a World War II.
I disagree about the Belgians. The way in which the Free State was run could be seen as a national embarassment to the Belgians. Furthermore, who would back the Belgians in a conflict with the British?
As I recall, Britain too had investigated the problems in Congo, and the British could justify moving in on the colony for humanitarian reasons. Of course that did happen, but why would it be a better route?
The British didn't send Roger Casement into the Congo until about 1902 or so, at which point a few black ministers had already begun speaking out against what was going on, but they were black so pretty much nobody bothered to listen to them.I disagree about the Belgians. The way in which the Free State was run could be seen as a national embarassment to the Belgians. Furthermore, who would back the Belgians in a conflict with the British?
So the British investigations are a bit off.
But they are still before the Belgian Parliament assumes control of the Congo Free State, are they not?
The Belgian Parliament only seized control after Leopold's death.
So yes, they would be.