A Radically Enlightened Denmark in the latter half of the 1700-hundreds

I'm just curious if we could come up with some sort of POD where Struensee maintains power(as opposed to his brief reign 1771-1772) and enacts more thorough liberal reforms than OTL.
Maybe the coup against him is unsuccesful, or perhaps he is not as zealous, reckless and impatient in his reforms.
Could we see a Denmark which abolishes the slavetrade and slavery in general as the first European country? A permanently free press? Denmark becoming a haven for progressive thinkers under the protection of the de facto philosopher ruler.
Or is all this too implausible?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I'm just curious if we could come up with some sort of POD where Struensee maintains power(as opposed to his brief reign 1771-1772) and enacts more thorough liberal reforms than OTL.
Maybe the coup against him is unsuccesful, or perhaps he is not as zealous, reckless and impatient in his reforms.
Could we see a Denmark which abolishes the slavetrade and slavery in general as the first European country? A permanently free press? Denmark becoming a haven for progressive thinkers under the protection of the de facto philosopher ruler.
Or is all this too implausible?

To large extent it is, not because it isn't possible but because of Struensee. His primary problems was that he lacked legitimacy and a power base, his only claim to power was being middleman between the king and the support of the queen. He more or less alienated everybody else, the rest of the royal family feared for their lives (and the kings), the progressive nationalist elements hated him for his restriction of the Danish language, the reactionary pro-Germans hated him for his progressive ideas, everybody else hated him for his illegitimate power grap and his affair with the queen. Struensee fundamental problem was that he was a idiot, whom tried to rule a country he didn't get without any popular support. Unless he's able to create a alliance with a fraction in Danish society or adminstration, he are going to end up a head shorter no matter what he does after his de facto coup.

If you want a progressive Denmark, you're better off making Struensee conservative, so the backlash are going to be proggesive rather than conservative. Of course if he's reactinary he's in a much better position to make alliance within the adminstration.
 
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I see your points Valdemar, the guy was indeed reckless and out of touch.
The sheer magnitude of the legislation that he pushed through during his tenure was just overwhelming, and that along with his inability to forge political alliances would inevitably lead him to the gallows.
But is there a way to mitigate his reforms and not provoke a reactionary backlash? Frederick VI did reform the country for the better in a few ways, what if Struensees vision had taken a firmer hold on the young and impressionable prince? Could this be an alternate way of having radical reforms, with the "small" difference that a person with a legitimate claim to power instituting them?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I see your points Valdemar, the guy was indeed reckless and out of touch.
The sheer magnitude of the legislation that he pushed through during his tenure was just overwhelming, and that along with his inability to forge political alliances would inevitably lead him to the gallows.
But is there a way to mitigate his reforms and not provoke a reactionary backlash? Frederick VI did reform the country for the better in a few ways, what if Struensees vision had taken a firmer hold on the young and impressionable prince? Could this be an alternate way of having radical reforms, with the "small" difference that a person with a legitimate claim to power instituting them?

The problem are that the Crownprince was quite young, when Struensee was excuted, and if Struensee had survived longer there was a good chance that Frederik would have died*. Honestly you're better off without Struensee if you want reform.

The best bet are keeping Christian VII from going insane and make him more like his father, incompetent but fully aware of it. Like his father he could in that case find someone he could trust to run the country. It would be quite likely that he would find someone young, whom was fan of radical enlightenment.

*Struensee and the queen was followers of a radical new child raising technic, which by modern standard would at very least would have resulted in the state removing the child because of neglect.
 
So what we're looking at is having a sane Christian VII with a smart advisor, someone in mold of say, A.P. Bernstorff?
With the king and his aid pursuing a more moderate yet progressive policies could we see at least some of the liberal Struensee reforms accomplished by he end of Christian's reign? free press, abolition of serfdom(of course), and perhaps even an end to the slavetrade(and dare I say, slavery in the west indies as well?)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
So what we're looking at is having a sane Christian VII with a smart advisor, someone in mold of say, A.P. Bernstorff?
With the king and his aid pursuing a more moderate yet progressive policies could we see at least some of the liberal Struensee reforms accomplished by he end of Christian's reign? free press, abolition of serfdom(of course), and perhaps even an end to the slavetrade(and dare I say, slavery in the west indies as well?)

I think all of them are quite likely, through we're unlikely to see a completely free press, more a press which are free as long as it doesn't upset the regime to badly. These things was more or less part of the times

Another alternative could be to have Frederik V live longer his advisors while not radical was somewhat progessive, it would also make it possible to deal with his sons insanity maybe set up a potential regency for his son. Hereditary Prince Frederik and his mother Queen Juliana Maria regency after Stuensee was only so reactionary, because their grip on power was so weak that they needed a alliance with the more reactionary part of the Danish adminstration. Queen Juliana Maria had shown progressive signs, before the regency, like using Danish while she raised her son, it was only political necessarity and Struensees stupidity in threatning her and her sons life, which made her turn reactionary.
 
so it comes down to stability of salic law, and then have Bernstorff live a bit longer so Frederick VI doesn't make the mistakes he did after the death of his advisor.
 
Also, do you think the right balance of stabile constitutional progression could lead to a seperation of chuch and sate in Denmark? how devout were Frederick V or his closest advisors, and would a puritan segment object?
 

Oddball

Monthly Donor
The problem are that the Crownprince was quite young, when Struensee was excuted, and if Struensee had survived longer there was a good chance that Frederik would have died*. Honestly you're better off without Struensee if you want reform.

*Struensee and the queen was followers of a radical new child raising technic, which by modern standard would at very least would have resulted in the state removing the child because of neglect.

Yes, Struensee was a "bit" peculiar. :D

Could you elaborate some about this radical child raising "technic?" I have not heard about this before :confused:
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Yes, Struensee was a "bit" peculiar. :D

Could you elaborate some about this radical child raising "technic?" I have not heard about this before :confused:

I have about in the satiric and anti-royal but historical correct book "Kongerækken forfra og bagfra" by Morten Ingemann and Bent Falbert. It seem that Struensee was supporter of a Rousseaus idea that children shopuld be raised afteer the nature method; "to let children be raised after their own experience, so he let the prince learn by eating badly, sleep in cold room under thin sheets and not helping the poor child when he fell", this happen to a sickly child, it was more or less a miracle that he survived until Struensee was executed and his mother banished. It was also a important reason behind the coup, many feared that Struensee was trying to kill the child and would try to get one more child with the queen, whom would when become crown prince.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
so it comes down to stability of salic law, and then have Bernstorff live a bit longer so Frederick VI doesn't make the mistakes he did after the death of his advisor.

One thing Denmark didn't use Salic law.

Also, do you think the right balance of stabile constitutional progression could lead to a seperation of chuch and sate in Denmark? how devout were Frederick V or his closest advisors, and would a puritan segment object?

We won't see seperation of state and church, that was fundamental a a phenomen in Catholic states, in Protestant states, where the Church was a extention of the State, such seperation would have been disasterous. One of the reasons absolutism turned out so much stronger in Scandinavia and Germany was because the monarchs used priest as public officials and in that way had a greater control over and contact with the common man.
 
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