A question regarding alternate Israels

There would still be Arab bitterness at losing land, the legal sale of land to Jews pre-war was opposed by many Arabs.

?Would there be Bitterness or just Unhappyness?

My Families Farm was resently sold to a Mennonite Farm Group [They are buying a lot of Farms] While I [& my Siblings] are unhappy at losing the Farm after three generations. We all regonize it as ligitimate. None of us were living there any way.

This is Different than if there was a War on and the Mennonites had sezied it at gunpoint, when we fled from it during one of the attacks.

I was envisioning the same type of situation, The Arabs being unhappy with the Jewish groups, But it was a fair buying.
 
Weapon M said:
Better yet, have the Jews, fleeing The Inquisistion, be the ones who "discover" the New World.....

I think I heard a roumor about columbus beeing a genuesian jew, whose family has left spain some decennials before...
 
DuQuense said:
?Would there be Bitterness or just Unhappyness?

My Families Farm was resently sold to a Mennonite Farm Group [They are buying a lot of Farms] While I [& my Siblings] are unhappy at losing the Farm after three generations. We all regonize it as ligitimate. None of us were living there any way.

This is Different than if there was a War on and the Mennonites had sezied it at gunpoint, when we fled from it during one of the attacks.

I was envisioning the same type of situation, The Arabs being unhappy with the Jewish groups, But it was a fair buying.

There would be bitterness if it was felt that the Jews were taking over, irrespective of the legitimacy of the sales. If half the farms where your family farm were taken over by Mennonites and they started to wield political power locally there would be bitterness, I guarantee you.

The same would be true in an earlier Israel. Would the bitterness be as bad as in the current situation, probably not. Would it have a better chance of subsiding within a generation or two, I think yes.

However, the question is could an earlier Israel, created by legal purchase of homes and land have come into being? Not everyone would have sold up, there would be patchwork Jewish settlement. How could a state of Israel be created from this patchwork? Would such an Isreal have a larger Arab population? And of course there is the question of Jerusalem.
 
anzac 15

I'VE BEEN A FAN OF THIS SITE FOR A WHILE,BUT HAVE NOT POSTED BEFORE.SO APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR ANY BLATANT ERRORS MADE.I'D LIKE TO MENTION A LITTLE KNOWN ALTERNATIVE SITE FOR ISRAEL WHICH NEVER SEEMS TO GET BROUGHT UP.IN THE 1930'S THERE WAS A PLAN TO ESTABLISH A JEWISH HOMELAND IN THE KIMBERLEY REGION OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA.THIS ORGANISATION WAS CALLED THE FREELAND LEAGUE FOR JEWISH TERRITORIAL COLONISATION .LED BY A ISAAC STEINBERG(A FORMER MINISTER FOR JUSTICE IN LENIN'S GOVT. BEFORE BEING PURGED)THE PLAN WAS TO SETTLE 10,000 JEWISH FAMILIES IN NORTHERN AUSTRALIA.A PLAN THAT INTRIGUED THE AUST.GOVT.AS AT THAT TIME THE NORTH WAS SPARESLY POPULATED AND THE THREAT OF A AGGRESIVE JAPANESE EMPIRE WAYED HEAVILY ON THE AUSTALIAN PSYCHE.DR STEINBERG MUST HAVE BEEN A VERY CHARISMATIC MAN,AS HE WAS ABLE TO OVERCOME A LOT OF PARONIA DIRECTED TOWARDS PEOPLE OF NON ANGLO SAXON EXTRACTION.AUSTRALIA AT THAT TIME ENSHRINED THE CONCEPT OF THE WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY.A PLAN TO LIMIT IMMIGRATION TO AUSTRALIA TO SELECT ETHNIC GROUPS.A POLICY LONG SINCE DISCARDED,MUCH TO OZ'S CURRENT BENEFIT.DR STEINBERG MANAGED TO GET SUPPORT FROM MAINSTREAM CHRISTIAN CHURCHES,THE TRADE UNION MOVEMENT,NOT TO MENTION THE THEN WESTERN AUSTRALIAN PREMIER MR WILLCOCK.ONE OF HIS SUPPORTERS WAS EVEN ONE OF AUSTRALIA'S MOST REKNOWNED PRIMEMINISTER'S SIR STANLEY MELBOURNE BRUCE.PLANS WERE PRECEDING AT A SLOW BUT STEADY PACE.AN AGREEMENT WAS REACHED WITH THE DURACK FAMILY AND OTHER NORTHERN PASTORALIST'S WHO HAD OPENED THE REGION TO AN EXTENSVE SERIES OF CATTLE RUNS MORE THAN FIFTY YEARS EARLIER.A PLAN TO SELL THEIR VAST HOLDINGS,ALL RIGHTS TO LAND,BUILDINGS AND CATTLE IN THE TERRITORY FOR 200,000 POUNDS. I'D BE REMISS TO NOT MENTION THAT THEIR WAS ALSO A LOT OF RESISTANCE TO THE IDEA OF A SEPARATE JEWISH HOMELAND AT THIS TIME FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.A CERTAIN LEVEL OF JEWISH BIAS,THE HARSHNESS OF THE AREA(in hindsight,i can say my personal view is the environment is more viable than the current location of israel)NOT TO MENTION A BELIEF THAT THE ATTEMT WOULD FAIL AND THE JEWISH POPULATION WOULD MELT AWAY TO AUSTRALIAS CAPITAL CITIES.NEEDLESS TO SAY,HISTORY INTERVENED IN THE FORM OF WW2.BY THE END OF THE WAR A JEWISH STATE IN PALESTINE WAS A GOING CONCERN,THE JAPANESE THREAT WAS ELLIMINATED AND AUSTRALIA'S POLICY TOWARDS IMMIGRATION WAS NOW ONE OF ASSIMILATION RATHER THAN SEPARATE HOMELANDS. BUT WHAT IF...........
 
I think what happened with the Jewish buying of land is that the Jews bought the land from often-absentee Turkish landlords and then kicked the Arab tenants out to bring in fellow Jews to do the work. THAT caused bitterness, even though the Jews were within their rights as the new property-owners.
 
In fact, a great deal of the land purchased was not then in use by the Arabs and while there were purchases from absentee land owners, these land owners were generally Arabs, not Turks. Just as in England in the 19th century the wealthy might own land in several areas but would prefer some sophisticated city as the prime residence, there were Arabs who owned land in what is now Israel but who greatly preferred Cairo as a place to live.

One major issue later, but not at the time, was when Jews began draining swamps and otherwise developing land which had long been of no value, as there were never enough people to bother with developing it, even presuming that the scientific knowledge for doing so had been available. Evidence suggests that population in the region was stagnant and had been for quite some time, which is one reason even a small Jewish influx might have been noticeable. And draining or otherwise developing land clearly presumes a surplus population willing to farm the land.

As any Dutchman knows, such swampland is exceptionally fertile once drained, and it is easy to see people who thought they were getting the better part of the bargain learning that they badly underestimated the potential value of what was sold.

As for Arabs losing their jobs, not a possibility. Until the 1920s, there weren't enough Jews there to TAKE anyone's job, less than 100,000 and given the establishment of communities in Jerusalem, Haifa, and Tel Aviv PLUS the four ancient religious towns it's hard to see just how many farmers there were. And after this period the Arabs became much more opposed to such land sales.

As a side note, one reason that so many German Jews were reluctant to flee is that the behavior of Nazi Germany was considered to a complete reversal of German attitude for centuries. Of course, where were they to go, given global restrictions on immigration.
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If I WANTED your opinion I would read it in your entrails
 
I also dimly recall a plan by Josef Stalin to settle large numbers of Russian Jews in the Crimea. This was probably just a political ploy, but for what I don't recall.
 
Alasdair Czyrnyj said:
In my readings of AH scenarios, I have heard references to the establishment of a Jewish state in areas other than Palestine, including Uganda, Madagascar, and Alaska (really!). My question is: wouldn't these alternate Israels run into the same problem as OTL Israel: an angry, displaced native population, and neighboring countries angered at Israel for the displacement? Or is the Middle East a unique case?

Uganda and Madagascar would have resulted in the instantaneous deaths of the entire Jewish population the second they arrived.

Alaska would have been mean, but at least Israel would have oil revenue.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Uganda and Madagascar would have resulted in the instantaneous deaths of the entire Jewish population the second they arrived.

Alaska would have been mean, but at least Israel would have oil revenue.

I'm not sure I see why the area they were proposing for the African Israel (which is apparently more in the uplands of Kenya) would be that bad. Whites settled there, after all.

A Jewish state in Africa could be funky, actually. Certainly millions of Jews will have a place to go in the 30's.
 
If you're looking for a place where the Jews could settle w/o major problems, I agree with the Australian idea. The place was practically empty for years, so the question becomes how do you get them there?

How about Disraeli? Maybe in an effort to establish harmony in Europe, he proposes to the Queen that Jews be resettled there.
 
Alayta said:
I do not want to look to much pc, but we are short before defining people just for their belive. Obviosly the "jews" in europe felt more like french, german or whatever. the zionist idea sounded ridiculous for a lot of those people. Would anybody join a call for all the lefthanded to change the country and go in a very underdeveloped area, while you can enjoy cars, daily newspapers and live music?
I dont know about the jewish people in eastern eurrope.

I agree with this. Zionism was the beleif of a tiny minority before ww2. Zionism is pretty much the ideological product of the holocaust, in much the same way as islamic fundamentalism is the product of decades of war in afghanistan, iran and iraq and so on.
Jewish workers had no resources, jewish businessmen were happy to stay in their state and the jewish intelligentsia were for the most part involved in left orientated movements.
The jewish population had at this point either been content to stay in central europe despite anti-semetism (which of course was lowest in germany ironically) or wanted to move to the US, but then found themselves unwelcome in many parts of the US aswell towards the end of the 19th century.
 
JimmyJimJam said:
At the hands of whom.

Disease. White people can't live in Uganda and Madagascar. The mortality rate for missionary doctors was enormous - a large compact population group like a Jewish colony would be wiped out fast.
 
Not in the highlands region of Kenya-Uganda

as Faeelin said, whites settled there.

Mr. Haywood, you're right about Zionism as a minority sentiment, but created out of whole cloth only after the Holocaust? C'mon. Zionism was getting endorsements from the US political parties from 1920 on, and considering the lack of occupational fit, all the the periods of pre-WWII migration were fairly impressive. The immigration rate of the 1920s probably wouldn't have been enough to create a state, but the pre-Holocaust, pre-WWII Hitler era did increase immigration alot and made an attempt to establish Israel in at least part of of what later became Israel pretty much inevitable, with or without WWII or the Holocaust.
 
Norman said:
If you're looking for a place where the Jews could settle w/o major problems, I agree with the Australian idea. The place was practically empty for years, so the question becomes how do you get them there?

In my Aurora Australis TL I had mass migration to Australia's west coast by the european jews first avoiding the amti-sematism and then forced relocation by the nazis instead of consentration camps.
 
One of the little known facts of history is that the first colony on what is now Sao Tome and Principe (the former Portuguese colony on two volcanic islands in the Bight of Benin) were some deported Jews from Spain, circa 1498 or thereabouts. Most of them died like flies. Not from natives, because there weren't any, but just from living in a malarial area.
There is also a legend that the colony consisted of 100 jewish boys and 100 African girls, who disappeared before the Spanish came back. I only saw that legend once in a book published in the twenties in the Vassar library in the seventies when I lived near there. It wasn't there when I went back two years ago, and I don't have a title or an author. Maybe the ASBs resettled them someplace. Or maybe they built ships and sailed off to Brazil or the Ibo section of Nigeria, the two closest destinations.
Of course, now that they have discovered several billion barrels of oil in the newly exploitable middle deeps (1000 to 3000 feet), the Israelis might decide that they are Jewish after all, and should be covered by the law of return. It would be historically correct. Don't know what the gene analysis will show. Maybe some Kohan Y chromosomes?
Perhaps after the Turks expelled the ten thousand Jews from Palestine in 1916 during the war, they might have settled in the Suez canal zone as some kind of free city. Britain and Egypt did not want them there, but if Turkey wound up still in control of Palestine after an inconclusive WWI, then it might have been a magnet for immigrants escaping the turmoil of post WWI Europe. The Sinai had a population of about 25,000 Beduin because of lack of water. The urban Israelis of the Suez and the Beduin wouldn't have had much to fight about.
Perhaps the Australians might have deliberately decided to import nonBrit immigrants after WWI. If England went broke after a longer war the Australians would have had surplus capital because hyperinflation would have destroyed their British pound denominated debt, and if the British could no longer afford a big navy then Australia might have decided that they needed to beef up their population to defend themselves. Australia would have had a native industrial and scientific base that would have enabled it to give a better account of itself in WWII.
Maybe if the war had been shorter, Russia might have stayed noncommunist because of better support from the Allies. Then there would have not have been such antiimmigrant prejudice by the US upper classes and the immigration of the Jews from Europe to America would have continued and there would never have been an Israel. Only two percent of the Jewish emigrants moved to and stayed in Israel when immigration to the US was open. Long Island might have been the Jewish homeland! It's got ten million people, after all.
Another possible site might be Labrador. There was some interest in making nitrates from hydroelectricity around 1900. The Churchill falls site has five gigawatts of electricity. There are also some other mineral deposits that might have been of interest, like FeVTiO and FeNiCuCoS and FeMnSiO and sea salts. After the war they would have imported most of their meat, grain, and dairy foodstuffs for the bulk of their calories, and grown vegetables and fruit in greenhouses lighted by all that hydroelectricity.
 
ANZAC 15

Apologies for the way the post came out.I'll try to improve on the amount of errors in the future.For anyone interested though,the Australian reference was taken from a book titled 'The big history question'(Snapshots of Australian history).The author was a Frank G.Clarke an Associate Professor of history at Macquarie University,so I'm assuming it's accurate.

If anyone has any 'friendly' suggestions of how I can improve my posting I'd appreciate it as I'm new to this and still finding my feet.Thanks....
 
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