A question on the House of Plantagenet

Now, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but one thing I've been really curious about as of late is, say the House of Plantagenet survives, either through Richard III defeating Henry Tudor at Bosworth and managing to marry and sire heirs, or through Edward IV not dying when he did and living a bit longer, or alternatively through having the main line of the Black Prince continue etc, what would've happened.

Would they have continued to pursue claims to France/ Gascony, or would they have focussed more on colonial exploration as the Tudors and Stuarts did?

Would it depend on which situation one were to go with, and the financial and international situation? The matter of the King, and how they deal with things such as the reformation etc?
 
Now, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but one thing I've been really curious about as of late is, say the House of Plantagenet survives, either through Richard III defeating Henry Tudor at Bosworth and managing to marry and sire heirs, or through Edward IV not dying when he did and living a bit longer, or alternatively through having the main line of the Black Prince continue etc, what would've happened.

Would they have continued to pursue claims to France/ Gascony, or would they have focussed more on colonial exploration as the Tudors and Stuarts did?

Would it depend on which situation one were to go with, and the financial and international situation? The matter of the King, and how they deal with things such as the reformation etc?

The problem for the English is, under Edward IV, England only has Calais left on the mainland. First of all, while France is not yet the juggernaut it will be, it remains strong enough to one-on-one smash England even worse than Châtillon. Second of all, the Hundred Years War was officially ended - that is, the wars to claim the French throne - in 1475 by Louis XI buying out Edward IV. Third of all, when they come around, the Austrians are way more powerful than the French and hold Flanders, therefore being more threatening than France to the English.
Therefore, I don't see the English invading France any time soon even if the Plantagenêts stay on the English throne.
 
The problem for the English is, under Edward IV, England only has Calais left on the mainland. First of all, while France is not yet the juggernaut it will be, it remains strong enough to one-on-one smash England even worse than Châtillon. Second of all, the Hundred Years War was officially ended - that is, the wars to claim the French throne - in 1475 by Louis XI buying out Edward IV. Third of all, when they come around, the Austrians are way more powerful than the French and hold Flanders, therefore being more threatening than France to the English.
Therefore, I don't see the English invading France any time soon even if the Plantagenêts stay on the English throne.

Hmm very true, could this therefore lead to alliances with the Habsburgs to ensure that things remain kosher between them?

Also, a question, if one were to push the pod way back ala the Black Prince and his sons surviving, what might the situation be there?
 
So the two scenarios I am thinking for a continued House of Plantagenet with some background:

Scenario I) Edward V who in otl was born in 1470, is this time born in 1466, his birth secures his mother and father's respective places as King and QUeen, however, that does not stop the plotting of the Earl of Warwick, and as such certain events go as otl, such as Warwick rebelling and ruling through Edward, however, this time he has to let Edward IV back on as King to face an invasion of the north led by the newly matured James III, Edward IV manages to repel that invasion, with James III dying. During the course of the negotiations with Scotland, James III's brother Alexander is set up with regents who are forced to reconise English sovereignty over Scotland, soemthing that will come to bite the man in the arse. Warwick, sensing potential issues with a successful Edward IV flees to France, taking his wife, daughters and son in Law Clarence with him. The marriage between Anne Neville and Edward of Westminster goes as otl, as does the subsequent Lancastrian defeat, death of Edward of Westminster, death of Warwick and his brother Montagu. Margaret of Anjou is imprisoned, and Anne Neville is married to Richard, Duke of Gloucester. The realm is largely at peace, for the next few years until, 1482 where Alexander IV of Scotland, under pressure from his nobles resciends that oath of Fealty to England and invades northern England. This is where Edward, Prince of Wales, and his uncle Gloucester develop a strong friendship- not sure if Clarence might die or not in this scenario- the Scots are defeated, and Alexander is forced to recognise English overlordship. Edward IV dies in 1483, and Edward V assumes the throne aged 17.

Any suggestions for this?
 
Scenario 2) 1358 sees Thomas Holland, Earl of Kent in right of his wife Joan, die in a hunting accident. A year later, his widow Joan marries Edward, the Black Prince, their son Edward of Wales is born in 1360. Another child named Richard follows in 1362. Other effects from this pod, are the death of Henry of Trastamara at Najera in 1367, the avoidance of Edward the Black Prince catching dysnetry, and possibly more war with France after the issue of taxes etc. Edward the Black Prince becomes King in 1377 following his father Edward III's death.
 
Hmm very true, could this therefore lead to alliances with the Habsburgs to ensure that things remain kosher between them?

Also, a question, if one were to push the pod way back ala the Black Prince and his sons surviving, what might the situation be there?

No. The Habsburgs are at the beginning greatly stronger than France because HRE, but not enough to be a threat for England. Therefore, England will ally France to maintain the balance of power.

Also, a Black prince POD doesn't change much. What drove the course of the HYW wasn't England's politics but France. When France was weak, disorganized, in civil war or anything, the English grabbed land. When France had a medium-to-strong king, the English were pushed back brutally.
John the Good (alla Leroy Jenkins) : bad king, got prisoner. England wins.
Charles V the Wise : Great king, with a good general. France wins. The war would've ended there if not for
Charles VI the Mad : Mad, periodically thinks he's made of glass, has a civil war on his hands. England unsurprisingly wins.
Charles VII the Well-served : Good king, even without Joan of Arc, although she did raise the French morale quite a bit. France wins.
Louis XI, the Spider : Great King. England is paid off to deal with the civil war against Bourgogne.
 
No. The Habsburgs are at the beginning greatly stronger than France because HRE, but not enough to be a threat for England. Therefore, England will ally France to maintain the balance of power.

Also, a Black prince POD doesn't change much. What drove the course of the HYW wasn't England's politics but France. When France was weak, disorganized, in civil war or anything, the English grabbed land. When France had a medium-to-strong king, the English were pushed back brutally.
John the Good (alla Leroy Jenkins) : bad king, got prisoner. England wins.
Charles V the Wise : Great king, with a good general. France wins. The war would've ended there if not for
Charles VI the Mad : Mad, periodically thinks he's made of glass, has a civil war on his hands. England unsurprisingly wins.
Charles VII the Well-served : Good king, even without Joan of Arc, although she did raise the French morale quite a bit. France wins.
Louis XI, the Spider : Great King. England is paid off to deal with the civil war against Bourgogne.

Hmm true enough, I'd also add Charles VII benefitted from some terrible generalship on the English side.
 
Hmm true enough, I'd also add Charles VII benefitted from some terrible generalship on the English side.

Actually, I'd like to read a TL on WI : Charles VI of France isn't mad. He didn't have an easy situation internally but he could've ended the HYW there.
 
Actually, I'd like to read a TL on WI : Charles VI of France isn't mad. He didn't have an easy situation internally but he could've ended the HYW there.

He very well could've. But then how does one avoid his madness, was it not hereditary from his mother's side? Or was it one of those one in a million?
 
He very well could've. But then how does one avoid his madness, was it not hereditary from his mother's side? Or was it one of those one in a million?

Well he had a predisposition from his mother's side, but his crises IIRC only started after he fell from horseback. With him not falling from his horse, he can either not go mad at all or simply go mad a couple decades later. Which would of course be even more interesting.
 
Well he had a predisposition from his mother's side, but his crises IIRC only started after he fell from horseback. With him not falling from his horse, he can either not go mad at all or simply go mad a couple decades later. Which would of course be even more interesting.

Very true, very true, that could well prevent the regency issues, preventing the English from having a second wind as it were, until around the 1420s aha, if he dies as in otl
 
Well he had a predisposition from his mother's side, but his crises IIRC only started after he fell from horseback. With him not falling from his horse, he can either not go mad at all or simply go mad a couple decades later. Which would of course be even more interesting.
My familiarity with this fellow is rather limited but he does seem rather interesting from a psychological standpoint. Avoiding the fall from horseback would only be a temporary fix due to his genetic predisposition. Any amount of instability in the French court may cause a psychotic break. I don't have my books with me at the moment but, in my opinion, his madness is inevitable and having him become psychologically unstable a couple of decades later is unlikely.
 
My familiarity with this fellow is rather limited but he does seem rather interesting from a psychological standpoint. Avoiding the fall from horseback would only be a temporary fix due to his genetic predisposition. Any amount of instability in the French court may cause a psychotic break. I don't have my books with me at the moment but, in my opinion, his madness is inevitable and having him become psychologically unstable a couple of decades later is unlikely.

One thing I've always wondered is what would've happened had say there been another Black Prince like figure, or if the stability of England had not been thrown off by the regency of Richard II etc, or if Henry V had lived. Could the English have salvaged more of France long term?
 
Now, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but one thing I've been really curious about as of late is, say the House of Plantagenet survives

Who says the House of Plantagenet is extinct? Here's a picture of the 33rd in patrilineal line from Hugues du Perche, progenitor of the family.

(There are a couple of oopsies in the descent, but hey, we understand these things now . . .)
:D

11th_Duke_of_Beaufort.jpg
 
Who says the House of Plantagenet is extinct? Here's a picture of the 33rd in patrilineal line from Hugues du Perche, progenitor of the family.

(There are a couple of oopsies in the descent, but hey, we understand these things now . . .)
:D


AHA, cheeky :p

Imagine him as King of Great Britain aha.

On that note, under a surviving Plantagenet royal family how likely would the united kingdoms be?
 
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