A question on Spain

A question for you all, during the 15th and 16th centuries, Spain was arguably one of the greatest powers in Europe and perhaps the world. However, it began to decline as the 17th century began and this decline continued throughout the eighteenth century. Was the decline mainly due to Habsburg inertia, or other factors? What would be needed for Spain to remain if not a major power than a medium power in Europe and the world?
 
I think this question has been presented before. I am far from an expert on Spain but one thing I recall reading was that if Spain were to avoid conflicts in Europe then they may have been better off. However, with Spain being ruled by the Habsburgs that might prove difficult.
 
I think this question has been presented before. I am far from an expert on Spain but one thing I recall reading was that if Spain were to avoid conflicts in Europe then they may have been better off. However, with Spain being ruled by the Habsburgs that might prove difficult.

Interesting, do you think these conflicts were always going to be likely regardless of who the dynasty was?
 
To put it simply, without going off on a tangent, humans are hard wired for conflict. Even without a Habsburg on the throne of Spain, there will be conflicts in Europe. The question I would ask is if not the Habsburgs then who would be ruling Spain?
 
To put it simply, without going off on a tangent, humans are hard wired for conflict. Even without a Habsburg on the throne of Spain, there will be conflicts in Europe. The question I would ask is if not the Habsburgs then who would be ruling Spain?

Hmm perhaps a continued Trastamara Spain?

Do you think there were any key reforms the Habsburgs missed that they could've implemented?
 
Is it not also true though that the Habsburgs gave Spain access to a much larger trade in Germany and Netherlands for their goods? Without the Habsburgs, is that possible, to have such a large market for their goods coming from the New World?
 
Is it not also true though that the Habsburgs gave Spain access to a much larger trade in Germany and Netherlands for their goods? Without the Habsburgs, is that possible, to have such a large market for their goods coming from the New World?

Hmm one could argue trade alliances and marital alliances with the Habsburgs could bring that in for say the Trastamaras?
 
I think that some of the issues of Spain are going to be addressed in this thread. Even if it deals with a PoD well before the spanish decline you mentioned, a lot of the problems of Spain proper remained (IIRC) the same from the reconquista onwards.
 
Hmm one could argue trade alliances and marital alliances with the Habsburgs could bring that in for say the Trastamaras?

Possibly. It may also, be a possibility for Spain to invade further into North Africa instead of engage in wars in Europe. This could possibly be a better option as it could allow Spain new avenues for population growth and access to trade with the slave markets overland.
 
I think that some of the issues of Spain are going to be addressed in this thread. Even if it deals with a PoD well before the spanish decline you mentioned, a lot of the problems of Spain proper remained (IIRC) the same from the reconquista onwards.

Alright interesting.

Possibly. It may also, be a possibility for Spain to invade further into North Africa instead of engage in wars in Europe. This could possibly be a better option as it could allow Spain new avenues for population growth and access to trade with the slave markets overland.

Hmm very true, if the House of Ivrea had remained on the Spanish or rather Castilian throne, what could that have changed?
 
A question for you all, during the 15th and 16th centuries, Spain was arguably one of the greatest powers in Europe and perhaps the world. However, it began to decline as the 17th century began and this decline continued throughout the eighteenth century. Was the decline mainly due to Habsburg inertia, or other factors? What would be needed for Spain to remain if not a major power than a medium power in Europe and the world?
It has been argued that Spain simply had too much bullion that was not invested productively in an actual economy for its own good
 
It has been argued that Spain simply had too much bullion that was not invested productively in an actual economy for its own good

This essentially. Spain's major problem was the fact that most of their gold and silver was spent on the arts. On beautiful architecture and paintings and sculptures. What they didn't spend on art was often spent on their wars or on themselves.

Hmm interesting. I suppose proper economy means agricultural development, trade etc.

You'd likely need to change Spain's thought process on the use of their bullion however. They had so much gold that they thought it'd never run out and simply used it on luxury goods rather than on the nation itself simply because there'd always be more.
 
This essentially. Spain's major problem was the fact that most of their gold and silver was spent on the arts. On beautiful architecture and paintings and sculptures. What they didn't spend on art was often spent on their wars or on themselves.



You'd likely need to change Spain's thought process on the use of their bullion however. They had so much gold that they thought it'd never run out and simply used it on luxury goods rather than on the nation itself simply because there'd always be more.

This is true, I suppose a stingy Henry VII like figure would be needed perhaps.
 
The 16th century was a golden age for the crowns of Aragon and Castille. Fueled by Aztec and Incan plunder, they entered an age of political and military pride. This resulted in a series of wars that brought the state multiple bankruptcies. Because of these bankrupticies, taxation and fiscal pressure was increased. Because of these taxes, many merchants and manufactorers bought titles of lower nobility, as the title of Hidalgo brought tax cuts with it. The problem is that these Hidalgos are not allowed to do physical work.

This brought the Spanish manufactoring and trade in a deep, structural crisis. In the beginning this was not so bad, as products could be imported, payed for by American silver. Food too was imported.

The 17th century brought the bill, as the American silver mines were exhausted. The Spanish economy sank into a deep stagnation, with an enormous bureaucracy, no internal production and no schooled workforce.

This was the end of Spain as an economic powerhouse. Without a strong economy, there is no possibility of fielding armies, navies, etc.
 
Hmm perhaps a continued Trastamara Spain?

Do you think there were any key reforms the Habsburgs missed that they could've implemented?

A continued Trastamara is possible via the Neapolitan line; say perhaps have Isabella (OTL mother of miguel la paz), Juana still marries Philipp the fair or she weds Alfonso of Portugal instead and have Philipp the fair wed Maria (OTL wife of Emanuel I of Portgual)

As for conflict, so long as the French want something in Italy there's going to be conflict. Otherwise a Trastamara or Avis dynasty in Spain/Iberia could focus more on S. Italy, N. Africa and her colonial possessions. The German markets could be replaced with increased influence/market share in Italy and early trade links with England via Portugal (at least before England begins her colonial expansion)

The main issue is adjusting the peace treaty requiring Isabella to marry Alfonso (as a result of the Castilian war of succession). She could marry the duke of Calabria after Alfonso's death from his horse-riding accident.....
 
Of the New World silver Spain mined, only about an eighth went to Spain proper, the rest filtering throughout Europe, and almost all of it (from both Spain and Europe) ended up in Chinese hands. What remained was still substantial, but only really enough to jack up inflation and fund a few wars. Spain isn't going to not go to war, so the obvious solution is have someone else mine up that silver. If the French found Potosi, we would be asking the same questions about them.
 
Interesting suggestions here. If someone such as Juan prince of austirias had survived and his line had inherited the throne, could they have done more to reform the economic conditions and brought proper centralisation?
 
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