A Prussian-Dutch personal union

I was recently thinking about personal union for the Netherlands and basicly came to the conclusion that during the 17th and 18th century the Netherlands would basicly dominate most personal unions that could arise, or at least bean equal partner in it. The only clear exceptions i could think of were England/Great Britain and Russia (France, Spain, Austria etc are out as protestant Netherlands would not be able to form a personal union with catholic countries). Another possible exception I could think of would be Prussia. Basicly I wonder who would dominate in a Prussian-Dutch personal union? Sure Prussia was militairy stronger, but the Netherlands was richer and had a superior navy. Mind you I am talking about the 17th and 18th century, not a personal union between the kingdom of the Netherlands and Prussia in the 19th century (which would be impossible anyway).

So how could we get such a personal union? As the stadholdership wasn't hereditairy, it does become a little harder. The closest relative to stadholder/king William III was for example the ruler of Prussia, but the Dutch provinces did not make him stadholder. They made (after having no stadholder for a while) the Frisian stadholder the stadholder general. I can easily see the Dutch Estate-General trying to avoid getting a strong foreign ruler as stadholder. It probably be much easier to get the house of Orange inherit Prussia somehow, but I have no idea how to accomplish that.

Also how would a Prussian-Dutch personal union look like. Would any of the 2 powers dominate the others? Would it last? It is perfectly possible that the Estate-General refuses the Prussian ruler to become stadholder if he gains too much power and what would be his reaction? One interesting aspect of such a personal union is that Prussia is more of a land based power than the Netherlands. Would it try to increase the Netherlands, for example by trying to add parts of the southern Netherlands to it, if the possibility arises. Also interesting are the various Prussian territories close to the Netherlands: Cleves, Mark, East Frisia, Lingen, Moers, Prussian Gueldres. What would happen to those? Would they become closer to the Netherlands? If the personal union ends would they end up with the Netherlands or with prussia?

And of course what would be the effect on unifying Germany. Would it mean a Netherlands within Germany, a Prussia outside it? Would it mean the unification is butterflied away (certainly possible as it would have no doubt a big effect on the French revolution and the Napoleonic wars)?
 
In the 17th century it would certainly NOT happen. Then, Prussia-Brandenburg was a regional power at best (I believe it did not even border the United Provinces then) and the Dutch would be very reluctant to take on such a unproductive and expensive territory because the Dutch knew who was going to pay the bills. It was just not going to happen.

In the 18th century it would be much more interesting. I'm not an expert about that period so I'll leave the extensive and complicated comments to the others. However, with the more sea-centric Dutch in personal union with Prussia, it will cause massive consequenses, especially during the Napoleonic Wars (assuming they will happen in the same form)
 

Adler

Banned
A PoD: 1658 William III. died without heir. His cousin Friedrich III., 1 year old, is somehow chosen to be Statthalter. Here you have to have a developement, in which it is possible. Wilhelm III. wasn't Statthalter until 1672. Because of this, Friedrich will become Statthalter about 1680 (his brother Karl Emil should die before as in OTL). Until then his parents will be the rulers for him.

This would be now very interesting. With the Grand Elector we have an outstanding army leader. In how far the Brandenburg colonies are now butterflied away, I don't know. In contrast, they could exist even longer.

In the Dutch War with France he would likely be more successful within the war. Vorpommern and perhaps a part of Latvia (Livonia) could now become Prussian as the Kaiser would not have dared to betray him (in OTL he did, as the Dutch were with him).

Frederick after him would likely not go to England. Also he was a realtive weak monarch. Nevertheless, he would have fought in the War of the Spanish succession and likely would become King in Prussia as well (he wasn't king of the Netherlands).

Friedrich-Wilhelm would be still the Soldatenkönig. But he likely would have had one Prussian army and one Dutch navy. As he had more means, both forces would be bigger.

Frederick the Great would have now even more forces. He would be a danger for Hannover as well and thus likely he would have needed the French as Allies, especially when the Austrians and Russians were on the other side (he would have taken Schlesien anyway). With French help the Brits might have lost the 7 years war as well. Then Hannover would be part of Prussia, too. Then he had soon a consistent empire from the North Sea to East Prussia and would be the rival no. 1 for Austria. If we want a lasting dynasty, it is now the time for the moment, that being Dutch would be equal to be a Prussian. That there would be no difference at all, like being from Königsberg, Breslau or Berlin. Or the Hague.

With Prussia so big, Napoleon might have failed early. Given, he succeeded, too. After Nappy the Netherlands would decide to stay under the Prussian crown. Perhaps they agree to have no claims on Belgium. However, in this time the rivalry between Prussia and Austria would grow. But, too, the chances to have a succeeding 1848 revolution. That might have lead to a war with Austria, and likely France and Denmark.

But the longer the PoD is away, too many butterflies happened.

Adler
 
The problem I see is that the title of Stadtholder wasn't automatically hereditary; there's nothging to stop the Dutch form deciding not to have one, like they did for a long period in OTL.
 
The problem I see is that the title of Stadtholder wasn't automatically hereditary; there's nothging to stop the Dutch form deciding not to have one, like they did for a long period in OTL.
True, but they didn't mind the stadholder to have other titles. At different points in time the stadholder had been count of Lingen, Moers, (most of) Nassau, Prince of Orange and even king of England, Scotland and Ireland(?). So adding Prussia, Brandenburg and a bunch of other territories wouldn't theoretically a promblem. Sure when the personal union becomes a disadvantage (the moment Prussia would become the dominant faction or if it means getting dragged into too many wars) they will end it. But as long as it is profitable (the Dutch are the Ferengi of Europe after all) they would let it continue.
 
The problem I see is that the title of Stadtholder wasn't automatically hereditary; there's nothging to stop the Dutch form deciding not to have one, like they did for a long period in OTL.

Therefore such a personal union wouldn't be stable. I think there are two changes needed for this: instead of a stadtholder there should be a hereditary king in the Netherlands. By marriage and inheritance the Prussians should then get the Netherlands (if the Dutch kings get Prussia I guess they'd be less interested in these backward territories).
 
The problem I see is that the title of Stadtholder wasn't automatically hereditary; there's nothging to stop the Dutch form deciding not to have one, like they did for a long period in OTL.
Well, it did become a hereditary position in 1747, although I'd say that's not the best time for a personal union to be successful.
 
Actually there is POD to be used from OTL. In 1702 after stadtholder (king) WilleM III died without issue the Prussian King Frederick I inherited the title of Prince of Orange ( not the principalty, which was ceded by France' King Louis XiV.) his Frisian nephew John William Friso of Nassau who was a descendant by the female line of William the Silent claimed the title as well.

So make a POD without John William Friso claiming the title. The united provinces in dire straits when LOUIS XIV occupies the the provinces and have the Estates General bag for aid by Frederick of Prussia .... and so on..

Furthermore almost all Stadtholders after William III married a Prussian ... so you can go either way .... one can inherit a kingdom or....
 
I think the Prussians would dominate if this was in the 19th century. Since the Netherlands is on the European mainland, the Prussians could fight any Dutch revolt. Also, I think that would lead to a unification of Germany with the Netherlands being considered part of Germany, probably even until today, assuming a bit of Germanisation.
 
hmmm a Prussia with the army & the navy;). I can see them building up a colonial empire, which can rival the French and to a lesser degree the British. So no OTL 'place under the sun' frustration for any united Germay TTL.
 
While a personal union is great and all, no-one is going to allow it to happen. Would Britain stand idly by while the Germans get possession of the Dutch Navy and the colonial holdings?

Given how many powers were opposed to German Unification, not to mention the Spanish Succession, letting Prussia take up the Netherlands would skew the balance of power even more so than OTL.

All you get is a combined alliance of Britain, France, Austria and their allies stopping from happening. Russia might join in as well, depending on exactly when the union occurs.
 
While a personal union is great and all, no-one is going to allow it to happen. Would Britain stand idly by while the Germans get possession of the Dutch Navy and the colonial holdings?

Given how many powers were opposed to German Unification, not to mention the Spanish Succession, letting Prussia take up the Netherlands would skew the balance of power even more so than OTL.

All you get is a combined alliance of Britain, France, Austria and their allies stopping from happening. Russia might join in as well, depending on exactly when the union occurs.

That's all true for a 19th century union - and at that time its much to late since the populations wouldn't allow for this, particularly the Dutch.

With a 18th century POD, though, German unification would be of no real concern. But the struggles between France and Britain would allow for opportunities to let that union happen.
 
To make it lasting - don't know the when or who, but here is a how:
You need a young elected Stadholder who inherits Brandenburg/Prussia (don't know how you pull that with salic law). If the new Stadholder-Elector/King is able and long living and his heir has a good standing in the Netherlands your chances for a 2nd generation rise. With every successful generation, the chances for durability rise.

For the time - the earlier the better, but before the Grate Elector only the electorate is of value.
 
IMHO, if it happens in the 18 c., it would make quite a significant powerhouse emerging in Northern Germany. I can easily imagine such a union being heavily interested in absorbing Hanover and create some connection betwen its main parts - i.e., from the Altmark to Frisia or Guelders.
At the same time, it would keep the older Dutch priority: keeping France at bay in the Low Countries, that strongly recommends good terms with Britain and Austria. In the war of Austrian Succession Netherlands and Prussia fought on opposed sides... What happens if they are united? Would they com to terms with France? I this case, Austria may be doomed and Britain quite screwed, but I don't see long term warm relations with France.
Clash of interests between anti-French, western-oriented Dutch and anti-Austrian, eastern-oriented Prussian may put the union under serious stress, unless it becomes the new British-buddy in keeping the French down after an alternate diplomatic revolution.
However, the Netherlands were losing their "Great Power" status immediately before Prussia started getting its one; the turning point may be said to be just the WoAS, albeit calling the Netherlands a Great Power in 1740 would be an exaggeration.
The scenarios opened by a lasting union beginning in early 1700 are very interesting... Dutch fleet, commerce, financial power (though already declining) and colonies combined with Prussian manpower and land military can make for a rather impressive force, that would tip heavily the european BoP.
Of course, this could not end well for the Union: I can imagine an alt War of the Seven Years where Russia, Austria, Russia AND BRITAIN, not to mention Sweden, gang up to crush the upstart country.
 
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