A pro-German Intermarium is created after Germany wins WWI

CaliGuy

Banned
What if, after a German and Central Powers WWI victory, Germany would have come to its senses and created a pro-German Intermarium consisting of Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic states?

Basically, the logic behind this would have been to keep Russia down at minimal cost to Germany. Also, let's say that the government structure of this Intermarium would have been similar to that of the U.S.--specifically with a House of Representatives based on population and a Senate with an equal number of seats for each of its members (as well as a Supreme Court and all that).

How would such an Intermarium have developed? Would it have been a success, or would ethnic tensions have eventually torn it apart? Also, how well would it have fared economically?

In addition to this, would Russia try allying with this Intermarium and pulling it out of the German orbit or would it be hostile to this Intermarium due to it controlling a bunch of territory which Russia has historically controlled?

Any thoughts on all of this?
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
As we discussed earlier, a Prussian-led Germany will always be wary of Poland due to the Poles in Posen and West Prussia. The only reason why the Germans would want to create an Intermarium is if they think it will force the Poles to focus on internal problems instead of looking west. And there would be no shortage of internal problems to distract the Poles. If Germany just wants to keep Russia down then they could make Mitteleuropa a NATO-style alliance (but far less voluntary).
 

CaliGuy

Banned
As we discussed earlier, a Prussian-led Germany will always be wary of Poland due to the Poles in Posen and West Prussia.

Technically speaking, though, Germany can try (if the political support for it is there, I mean) handing over the Polish-majority territories in Posen Province to the Intermarium as a gift.

The only reason why the Germans would want to create an Intermarium is if they think it will force the Poles to focus on internal problems instead of looking west.

Actually, there is another purpose to this--to make the people of Germany's various Eastern European puppet states more invested in each other's future. Indeed, if Ukrainians and Estonians were part of the same country, then they would care much about each other's security than if they were (nominally) independent and separate countries.

And there would be no shortage of internal problems to distract the Poles.

That's probably true.

If Germany just wants to keep Russia down then they could make Mitteleuropa a NATO-style alliance (but far less voluntary).

Having Germany's Eastern European puppet states create a unified military in addition to this would probably be more effective, though.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Technically speaking, though, Germany can try (if the political support for it is there, I mean) handing over the Polish-majority territories in Posen Province to the Intermarium as a gift.
Having Germany's Eastern European puppet states create a unified military in addition to this would probably be more effective, though.
I have a feeling such a military would have all the problems of the Austro-Hungarian one.
 
What if, after a German and Central Powers WWI victory, Germany would have come to its senses and created a pro-German Intermarium consisting of Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic states
Why have Poland control a huge union in the east of Germany when you can have Germany control all that land in the east of Germany?

I mean, Mitteleuropa wouldn't have been as tightly knit as Miedzymorze would have been, but it would still basically be Germany's backyard.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I have a feeling such a military would have all the problems of the Austro-Hungarian one.
Possibly, but it would depend on how well it is managed, et cetera. After all, with better management, Austria-Hungary's military could have probably performed better (indeed, they performed relatively well when they were managed by Germans from Germany during World War I).

Why have Poland control a huge union in the east of Germany when you can have Germany control all that land in the east of Germany?

I mean, Mitteleuropa wouldn't have been as tightly knit as Miedzymorze would have been, but it would still basically be Germany's backyard.
Actually, such a union wouldn't be Polish-dominated; after all, Poles and Ukrainians would have been about equal in numbers in such a union.
 
Actually, such a union wouldn't be Polish-dominated; after all, Poles and Ukrainians would have been about equal in numbers in such a union.
Still, what's the point in making such a goliath of a nation?

If it doesn't fall apart immediately due to national tensions, it will just end up challenging Germany for authority.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Still, what's the point in making such a goliath of a nation?

If it doesn't fall apart immediately due to national tensions, it will just end up challenging Germany for authority.
The point of making such a nation is to make it easier for Germany to keep Russia down.
 

Deleted member 97083

They can accomplish that just as easily by holding Eastern Europe themselves through Mitteleuropa.
I suppose the Intermarium thing does make some sense because the Germans wanted to turn the Otttomans, too, into a giant puppet state.
 
I suppose the Intermarium thing does make some sense because the Germans wanted to turn the Otttomans, too, into a giant puppet state.
Well... I suppose the difference is that the Ottomans are far away, while Eastern Europe is right next to Germany.

Anyway, I think creating a single Intermarium would be a very bad idea, because it would be way too independent for the Germans to realistically control for long. A bunch of puppets in Eastern Europe eliminates the chance of that and of ethnic problems in their eastern sphere.
 
The Germans and Austria-Hungarians would also need to be involved. What reason would two powers have for making their newly acquired satellites to ally with each other but not them? While Intermarium might be part of the official name, it would be Mitteleuropa in nature. Germans would be the monarchs of the Baltic States and Poland anyways. I don't see Belarus being a part of this'll, as it was never asked for by the Germans. I think they thought of it as being a part of Russia. Part of why it was to be returned to Russia by the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.


I suppose the Intermarium thing does make some sense because the Germans wanted to turn the Otttomans, too, into a giant puppet state.
They wanted the government to be pro-German. Reasonable enough. The Young Turks supported them and helped (against any orders of the Sultan) with a false flag operation where German warships flew the Ottoman flag and attacked Entente ships. But yes, the Germans would be very interested not in investing further in Turkey, Iraq, Arabia, etc. The Berlin-Baghdad Railroad opened up a way in which the Germans could get to the Indian Ocean without needing to use the Atlantic or the Suez Canal.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
They can accomplish that just as easily by holding Eastern Europe themselves through Mitteleuropa.
That would require the use of a lot of German troops, though; indeed, Germany doesn't have unlimited troops to spare and it wouldn't make sense for Germany to spend money like crazy on this when it can have its puppets do this instead.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Well... I suppose the difference is that the Ottomans are far away, while Eastern Europe is right next to Germany.

Anyway, I think creating a single Intermarium would be a very bad idea, because it would be way too independent for the Germans to realistically control for long. A bunch of puppets in Eastern Europe eliminates the chance of that and of ethnic problems in their eastern sphere.
A unified military for these puppets would still be nice to have, though; indeed, this will prevent Germany from being forced to spend money like crazy on this and would also result in a stronger military for Germany's puppets.
 
That would require the use of a lot of German troops, though; indeed, Germany doesn't have unlimited troops to spare and it wouldn't make sense for Germany to spend money like crazy on this when it can have its puppets do this instead.
Turning Eastern Europe into a bunch of weak puppets is not going to cost Germany any more than creating a unified Intermarium would.
 
An independent Poland sandwiched between Germany and Russia is like a deer standing between two lions. It is going to get devoured eventually. History has shown that with the three partitions of Poland and the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Even a German sponsored puppet state will eventually be too tempting for Berlin to leave as independent. It would be easier for Germany to do another deal with Russia and partition the lands between them than set up some weak puppet state that Russia will try to influence and undermine anyway.
 
The Poles will dislike that half of them are still under Germany and A-H, the Belorussians and Ukrainians will have strong ties to Russia, the Balts may like the situation, but be worried that the Russians will come back.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Turning Eastern Europe into a bunch of weak puppets is not going to cost Germany any more than creating a unified Intermarium would.
Weak puppet states means that Germany needs to spend more money on its own military in order to protect them, though.
 
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