A Pre-Columbian North American Timeline Planning Thread

[Tempered Zen]

a Norse Dorset hybid raiding culture sounds epic though. But I meant the first What is so special about the tenth century though will the Norse make contact or something. I think the northeast would like rye oats and cabbages.
icl

There won't be any significant Norse contact, though I could see some Greenlanders fleeing to Labrador once the Little Ice Age happens.

The tenth century will be a very chaotic century. Think Nahua + Sea People + the Migration Period, all rolled into one. So there's that to look forward too.

About the language i'd not know, about the Marajoara, we have much more about culture and that stuff than language (if we have something and i didn't know). Some say that they migrated from the Andes, so....

I did some reading on the subject, and that Andes migration theory is proven to be false. This article I read said that they continued into the post-Columbian period as the Aroa, and to me that seems like the most logical answer, so I'll probably use that.

About the Amazon, it's common don't know much about because of scarse amount of sources. But i recommend these here:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/amazon-terra-preta-to-find-ancient-civilizations.amp

https://www.ancient-origins.net/anc...st-once-home-massive-lost-civilization-008342

Also, you can do some research in the "Terra Preta" for more about the agriculture

Thanks. And bold of you to assume I wasn't going to somehow work Terra Preta into this timeline. This just gives me a better excuse .

About the migrations? Yep, the most trusted theory is that the Tupi were born in the valleys of the Madeira and Xingu rivers and from there, settled at the mouth of the Amazon River, going from there to a north-south movement towards the coast (that probably also happened with the tupi of the valleys that i said before). The major tupi stronghold was the Amazon, since they have to dispute with other peoples in the coast (one of the reasons to the Tupi-Guarani mix).

That clears some stuff up. I found a paper called "The Tupi Expansion" that has a lot to say on this front. So the Guarani moved south, while the Tupi moved East towards the mouth of the Amazon? Also, what do you think will happen to the Macro-Je speakers?

Am i dreaming or it's a Guarani Empire in the middle of a Atlantic-Pacific silk road?

Maybe..

You can start with this

Well, now I'm imagining Charrua mercenaries fighting under Guarani kings. Thank you for exposing me to this awesome group of people.

 

[Psychomaker69]

dunno if it's been mentioned, but I'd like to see whether/how the interior tribes like the Zuni and Hohokam's irrigation agriculture style might come into much wider use in this timeline.

Spoiler: Excerpt from the wiki

The earliest agricultural irrigation canal system known in the area of the present-day United States dates to between 1200 B.C. and 800 B.C. and was discovered[by whom?] in Marana, Arizona (adjacent to Tucson) in 2009.[26] The irrigation-canal system predates the Hohokam culture by two thousand years and belongs to an unidentified culture. In North America, the Hohokam were the only culture known to rely on irrigation canals to water their crops, and their irrigation systems supported the largest population in the Southwest by AD 1300. The Hohokam constructed an assortment of simple canals combined with weirs in their various agricultural pursuits. Between the 7th and 14th centuries they built and maintained extensive irrigation networks along the lower Salt and middle Gila Rivers that rivaled the complexity of those used in the ancient Near East, Egypt, and China. These were constructed using relatively simple excavation tools, without the benefit of advanced engineering technologies, and achieved drops of a few feet per mile, balancing erosion and siltation. The Hohokam cultivated varieties of cotton, tobacco, maize, beans and squash, as well as harvesting an assortment of wild plants. Late in the Hohokam Chronological Sequence, they also used extensive dry-farming systems, primarily to grow agave for food and fiber. Their reliance on agricultural strategies based on canal irrigation, vital in their less-than-hospitable desert environment and arid climate, provided the basis for the aggregation of rural populations into stable urban centers.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Yaupon will be an important export to the Upper Mississippi and the Northeast, serving a role similar to coffee. It's trade will be very profitable for the societies of the Tennessee, as they lie at the northernmost part of it's range.

I've never heard of yaupon growing in Tennessee (maybe in the past in certain warm microclimates though). TN and northern Alabama are too cold compared to its optimal habitat in the Gulf Coast (just check the USDA plant hardiness zone). Maybe with careful cultivation you could get it to grow in said microclimates (parts of West Tennessee, Sequatchie Valley, some bits of the southeastern corner near Chattanooga), etc.

Probably the Yuchi will have some valuable settlements , since the trade ships have to stop in some place (a.k.a river settlements), it will be good for them, i can imagine the Yuchi developing a maritimal-riverine culture based on this, maybe compete commercially with the Taino. What is Venice-Genoa near Yuchi-Taino?

The divide between the Tennessee River Basin and the rivers which flow into the Gulf (i.e. Alabama River) marked by ridges/mountains including those near Birmingham would be highly strategic to control as a trade route. Not to mention a source of iron if that would ever take off. There's also some copper in the area as well IIRC (plus more near the Tennessee River).

A little bummed about Eurasia being the same. Imagine reading a Pre Colombian timeline and when the Europeans show it turns they are very different like Eurasia is Dunes of the Desert type situation or The Roman empire never existed. That would be so cool That timeline would be so very different from our own. But the agriculture butterfly's will be big with the Northeast Agriculture package the population in Scandinavia And Russia would explode. Look at the river network of Russia with a type rice adapted to that climate they could reach Indian or East Asian levels of population.

Makes me think how there's a lot of alternate agriculture TLs here, but TLs with LESS plant/animal domestication are rare. A New World buff TL where the Old World is as screwed as feasibly possible (starting maybe 8-10,000 BC) seems like it could be fun.

Sounds plausible. I know next to nothing about the Pampas, so I'll have to do some research. Do you know where I can start?

I'd love to see a strangely parallel version of the Great Plains, where rhea and llama pastoralists roam the Pampas and trade with farmers living in river valleys.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

I did some reading on the subject, and that Andes migration theory is proven to be false. This article I read said that they continued into the post-Columbian period as the Aroa, and to me that seems like the most logical answer, so I'll probably use that.

So...go with that , i'm curious to see what you'll do with the Marajoara

Thanks. And bold of you to assume I wasn't going to somehow work Terra Preta into this timeline. This just gives me a better excuse .

Well, where i came from we would answer you a good "De Nada"

That clears some stuff up. I found a paper called "The Tupi Expansion" that has a lot to say on this front. So the Guarani moved south, while the Tupi moved East towards the mouth of the Amazon? Also, what do you think will happen to the Macro-Je speakers?

Basically this, and from the mouth of the amazon the Tupi expanded towards the northeast coast. I think that they will have a nice time being in the middle of the Peabiru (ITTL a mega Atlantic-Pacific trade route). Other thing is that they are Another thing is that they are particularly aggressive, so expect a Tatar-Russian style relationship between them and the Tupi on the coast, since they probably will adopt agriculture by tupi-guarani influence, but considerably later than the guarani/charrua.

Well, now I'm imagining Charrua mercenaries fighting under Guarani kings. Thank you for exposing me to this awesome group of people.

Again, "De nada" and no, you aren't the first person to imagine this

I'd love to see a strangely parallel version of the Great Plains, where rhea and llama pastoralists roam the Pampas and trade with farmers living in river valleys.

Guarani kingdoms in the river valleys, charrua mercenaries in the plains

N o i c e

 

[Tempered Zen]

dunno if it's been mentioned, but I'd like to see whether/how the interior tribes like the Zuni and Hohokam's irrigation agriculture style might come into much wider use in this timeline.

Still have to do some research on that front, but Hohokam-style irrigation could be consolidated earlier (by the peoples who made the canal systems in the 1st millennium BC), and spread into the river systems of the Great Plains.

Unrelated, but does anyone have any books on Uto-Aztecan prehistory? There's a book called A Prehistory of Western North America floating around, but I can't seem to find it online.

I've never heard of yaupon growing in Tennessee (maybe in the past in certain warm microclimates though). TN and northern Alabama are too cold compared to its optimal habitat in the Gulf Coast (just check the USDA plant hardiness zone). Maybe with careful cultivation you could get it to grow in said microclimates (parts of West Tennessee, Sequatchie Valley, some bits of the southeastern corner near Chattanooga), etc.

Though probably not optimal for its cultivation, it can grow in Hardiness Zone 7, which encompasses parts of Tennessee.

The divide between the Tennessee River Basin and the rivers which flow into the Gulf (i.e. Alabama River) marked by ridges/mountains including those near Birmingham would be highly strategic to control as a trade route. Not to mention a source of iron if that would ever take off. There's also some copper in the area as well IIRC (plus more near the Tennessee River).

The Coosa Valley will be the home of a civilization that will thrive in this regard. Also, do you have any additional information on the mineral deposits in the region?

I'd love to see a strangely parallel version of the Great Plains, where rhea and llama pastoralists roam the Pampas and trade with farmers living in river valleys.

Interesting. Is there any info available on the domestication of rheas? It sounds like it could be a cool domesticate.

So...go with that , i'm curious to see what you'll do with the Marajoara

*laughs in Amazonian trade thalassocracy*

Basically this, and from the mouth of the amazon the Tupi expanded towards the northeast coast.

Do we know what the state of the migrations were circa 600CE?

I think that they will have a nice time being in the middle of the Peabiru (ITTL a mega Atlantic-Pacific trade route). Other thing is that they are Another thing is that they are particularly aggressive, so expect a Tatar-Russian style relationship between them and the Tupi on the coast, since they probably will adopt agriculture by tupi-guarani influence, but considerably later than the guarani/charrua.

Maybe we could see the Macro-Je becoming what the Germanic tribes were to Rome?

Again, "De nada" and no, you aren't the first person to imagine this

You know what they say, great minds think alike .

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Do we know what the state of the migrations were circa 600CE?

They were already on the coast, since the migration to the coast is said to have begun in the beggining of the christian era, some 600 years since the beginning of the migration to the coast.

Maybe we could see the Macro-Je becoming what the Germanic tribes were to Rome?

Yep, mainly in the northeast, there they lived in the Sertão (i don't know if there is a translation to this and i'm too lazy to search) while the Tupi lived in the coast. An Guarani Empire pushing them to the coast seems nice

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

Question how will the people who made the Terra Petra fair in this timeline? Spanish explorers on the Amazon commented on how densely populated it was. Their are many fruits that can be domesticated and they could adopt the three sister's.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Question how will the people who made the Terra Petra fair in this timeline? Spanish explorers on the Amazon commented on how densely populated it was. Their are many fruits that can be domesticated and they could adopt the three sister's.

I already commented on that so i'll just leave the quote:

The Marajoara probably will have a better civilization, being the door to the Amazon Basin. They probably will have the role of the Yuchi to the Taino in the Amazon, also expects a great(er) population in the region with the addition of popcorn by the Taino sailors, with time, the amazonians will adopt the sail culture, and the development in the basin will skyrocket (together with the population). With that, i think that the amazonic (and marajoara) civilizations will not be completely devastated by the europeans.

This + three sisters will make the Amazon an american India, OTL precolumbian population was around 1 million. Expect it to be some 100-500 million, depending on which time they adopt the three sisters.

EDIT: Also, 1 million is the conservative estimate

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Q: I am very curious of possible trade routes in South America... Or the whole continent. Would you be so kind to do a rough, very rough sketch?

 

[Tempered Zen]

Question how will the people who made the Terra Petra fair in this timeline? Spanish explorers on the Amazon commented on how densely populated it was. Their are many fruits that can be domesticated and they could adopt the three sister's.

This + three sisters will make the Amazon an american India, OTL precolumbian population was around 1 million. Expect it to be some 100-500 million, depending on which time they adopt the three sisters.

If I'm not mistaken, the peoples of the Amazon already had the Three Sisters. I think getting a more advanced Amazon is a matter of more intensive farming (I'll add a few more plant domesticates into the region as well), some domesticated animals, and some inspiration from more sedentary peoples. Luckily, we'll have all three in this timeline. I still have to do some more research on the area though.

 

[Tempered Zen]

Q: I am very curious of possible trade routes in South America... Or the whole continent. Would you be so kind to do a rough, very rough sketch?

Of course. I just recently started to really brainstorm this area, so some things are still rough drafts.

So far we have a Circum-Caribbean trade route, with the Taino as the glue, holding together a vast trade network that transfers goods, peoples, and ideas from places ranging from the Lower Mississippi to the Amazon.

Speaking of the Amazon, at the mouth we have the Marajoara, who are the gateway to this vast river system. They'll dominate trade in the region, spreading new innovations from the Caribbean into it's various tributaries, sparking the development of more advanced cultures in the area.

On the Atlantic coast, we have the Tupi, who will share similar developments to the Amazon due to cultural diffusion from the Marajoara. They'll spread these ideas to the Guarani, their distant cousins.

The Guarani will be at the heart of an alternate, much more improved version of the Peabiru, a transcontinental trade network connecting the peoples of the Atlantic coast with those of the Andes. It will spread Andean ideas into Brazil, and vice versa, creating a very unique culture. The developments of this trade route will also spread to the Pampas.

On the Pacific coast, there'll be a trade route between the peoples of western Mesoamerica and the peoples of coastal Peru. It'll be masterminded by the Manteño culture, who will be in a Carthage-Rome like conflict with a certain state to the south...

That's what I have so far. I'm doing research on a pan-Andean trade route (similar to the Inca road system, but ITTL the region will be fragmented into several states), and there's a few more possibilities I'm playing around with.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

On the Pacific coast, there'll be a trade route between the peoples of western Mesoamerica and the peoples of coastal Peru. It'll be masterminded by the Manteño culture, who will be in a Carthage-Rome like conflict with a certain state to the south...

Mapuche expansionist state?

So....NOW I WANT THIS TIMELINE ASAP

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

I have questions about the trades routs what will this people be selling to each other. like what will the Yuchi import from to north to give the Taino and will the Yuchi buy from the Taino.

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Of course. I just recently started to really brainstorm this area, so some things are still rough drafts.

So far we have a Circum-Caribbean trade route, with the Taino as the glue, holding together a vast trade network that transfers goods, peoples, and ideas from places ranging from the Lower Mississippi to the Amazon.

Speaking of the Amazon, at the mouth we have the Marajoara, who are the gateway to this vast river system. They'll dominate trade in the region, spreading new innovations from the Caribbean into it's various tributaries, sparking the development of more advanced cultures in the area.

On the Atlantic coast, we have the Tupi, who will share similar developments to the Amazon due to cultural diffusion from the Marajoara. They'll spread these ideas to the Guarani, their distant cousins.

The Guarani will be at the heart of an alternate, much more improved version of the Peabiru, a transcontinental trade network connecting the peoples of the Atlantic coast with those of the Andes. It will spread Andean ideas into Brazil, and vice versa, creating a very unique culture. The developments of this trade route will also spread to the Pampas.

On the Pacific coast, there'll be a trade route between the peoples of western Mesoamerica and the peoples of coastal Peru. It'll be masterminded by the Manteño culture, who will be in a Carthage-Rome like conflict with a certain state to the south...

That's what I have so far. I'm doing research on a pan-Andean trade route (similar to the Inca road system, but ITTL the region will be fragmented into several states), and there's a few more possibilities I'm playing around with.

Glad to see the continent interconnected. If understood correctly, backwater area include Patagonia, Brazilian Highlands, Mayo Grosso,Amazonian Colombia plus Guyana Highlands of Venezuela

 

[Tempered Zen]

Mapuche expansionist state?

So....NOW I WANT THIS TIMELINE ASAP

Unfortunately not quite, too far south.

I have questions about the trades routs what will this people be selling to each other. like what will the Yuchi import from to north to give the Taino and will the Yuchi buy from the Taino.

It'll be somewhat a bartering system, but cacao beans will be a common form of currency, like in Mesoamerica. Things will be measured in how much beans it can be bought for. For example in OTL, one rabbit cost 10 beans, while a copper hatchet cost 8000 beans. So theoretically if you were to buy a copper hatchet with rabbits, you'd need 800 rabbits. In areas where cacao doesn't grow, there'll be alternatives. Wampum will be used in the Northeast, for example. Metals will also be valuable, such as gold and copper.

Glad to see the continent interconnected. If understood correctly, backwater area include Patagonia, Brazilian Highlands, Mayo Grosso,Amazonian Colombia plus Guyana Highlands of Venezuela

Mostly correct, though Mato Grosso might be important, being between the Paraguay River and the Amazon Drainage Basin. I could see some Guarani expanding into the region. Patagonia is the home of the Mapuche, who aren't in the best place geographically but are pretty fierce. They'll get a few domesticates, so keep an eye out for them.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

I could imagine peppers would be valuble. Maybe northern nobility would want the brightly colored feathers of tropic birds and the southerns would want furs. Mead would be very big.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Mostly correct, though Mato Grosso might be important

A brief correction, Mato Grosso is on the middle of the Peabiru AFAIK

 

[Tempered Zen]

I could image peppers would be valuble. Maybe northern nobility would want the brightly colored feathers of tropic birds and the southerns would want furs. Mead would be very big.

All of these items will be traded, though fur won't be all that necessary in the Caribbean.

A brief correction, Mato Grosso is on the middle of the Peabiru AFAIK

The maps I've seen of the Peabiru show the road passing through the southernmost part of Mato Grosso do Sul, if at all.

Here's the main two I've been using.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

All of these items will be traded, though fur won't be all that necessary in the Caribbean.

I have two words for you status symbol.

 

[Tempered Zen]

I was trying (and failed) to imply that it wouldn't be widespread, but yes, furs will definitely be used as a status symbol.

In fact, the wool of two certain animals will be associated with wealth.