A Pre-Columbian North American Timeline Planning Thread

[WiLMS7111992]

Hope to see your timeline soon, looks very promising.

How far north and/or south would the Taino/Arawak sail if maritime trade becomes very important in your timeline?

To the north there are the Timucua of Florida, the Catabawa of the Carolinas, and various Algonquian-speaking groups of the northeast such as the Powhatan, Lenape, Massachusett, Passamaquoddy and Miꞌkmaq. Groups of the northeast coast could benefit greatly with trade contact and interaction with the Arawak, obtaining tools and valuables, and more importantly, ideas, such as learning from Arawak ship-building and navigation to possibly make seafaring economically viable for their own cultures. The east Algonquians can offer maple syrup, or even furs as their main export to the Caribbean. Important harbor towns could rise in similar locations to modern New York City and Boston.

As for the south, the Tupi of the Brazilian coast could have similar deal, with the added benefit of having access to goods the amazon rainforest has to offer, such as rare fruit, exotic timber or jaguar skin.

 

[Tempered Zen]

Use the agricultural package of the Arawak in the Caribbean and perhaps the Rotoan Island finds as inspiration.

The Arawak (Taino, I'm assuming) will play a key role in the Circum-Caribbean, connecting Mesoamerica and Borealamerica after the advent of the sail. I'm not quite sure about the Rotoan Island finds you're referring to, so would you mind linking a source? I'd like to know what that's about.

Wyam in Oregon and 'Terra Calalus' may be helpful too. Roman Corbata/Murophiro can exceed 400 ton cargo capacity by the switch to CE and essentially the Teotihuacan civilization may serve as Rome for the Americas.

Wyam is an interesting suggestion. There'll be a few states that can be compared to Wyam ITTL, though a better comparison would be something more akin to Teotihuacan (as in a trading based city)

There definitely will not be a Roman presence in the Americas ITTL, so something akin Terra Calalus won't happen. I'm not sure what you're referring to in that last sentence. Could you clarify?

Roads may have stretched from Peru to the Atlantic and there are still cities being found i the mountains.

There'll be roads in the Andes, but nothing on that big of a scale.

Polynesians make an excellent source of potential contact while Japanese vessels may drift into the Pacific Northwest as they did at least a few times in OTL

There won't be significant transoceanic contact until Columbus shows up (there'll be Vikings, but it won't affect anything in the grand scheme of things, like OTL). So Polynesians (besides any contact that may have occured in OTL, and even then it didn't change much in the Americas) and Japanese are out of the realm of possibilities.

Hope to see your timeline soon, looks very

Thanks, and welcome to the board!

How far north and/or south would the Taino/Arawak sail if maritime trade becomes very important in your timeline?

Maritime trade will become pretty important ITTL. The Taino will be located in the Circum-Caribbean and the Atlantic Seaboard, though they'll rarely voyage more north than the Tidewater or more south than Marajó.

To the north there are the Timucua of Florida, the Catabawa of the Carolinas, and various Algonquian-speaking groups of the northeast such as the Powhatan, Lenape, Massachusett, Passamaquoddy and Miꞌkmaq. Groups of the northeast coast could benefit greatly with trade contact and interaction with the Arawak, obtaining tools and valuables, and more importantly, ideas, such as learning from Arawak ship-building and navigation to possibly make seafaring economically viable for their own cultures. The east Algonquians can offer maple syrup, or even furs as their main export to the Caribbean. Important harbor towns could rise in similar locations to modern New York City and Boston.

Interesting ideas.

Some of these groups won't exist in this TL, at least not in any recognizable form. There will be Timucua in roughly the same spot as OTL, but the Catabwans and Algonquians will be in locations ranging from slightly to completely different from OTL.

The groups on the Atlantic Coast won't be radically changed by the Taino. In fact, navigational techniques will spread from North America to the Taino, not the other way around. However, they will take greater advantage and elaborate upon these techniques more than any other peoples, and be the nucleus of a vast trade network spanning from the Great Lakes to the Amazon.

Unrelated, but I have a bit of a soft spot for the Taino, though I'm a little biased, considering I have Taino ancestry. It's one of the reasons I started to get into Native American history in general.

As for harbor towns, I have plans for a few trade based cities propping up at the mouth of the major river systems, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Just as much as you'd expect from a riverine oriented civilization(s).

As for the south, the Tupi of the Brazilian coast could have similar deal, with the added benefit of having access to goods the amazon rainforest has to offer, such as rare fruit, exotic timber or jaguar skin.

Interesting. The Tupi won't be too affected by the POD, but that probably will change as time goes on. If anything, they'll be the at the southern extreme of the Taino trade network. I'd have to do some more research on specific exports.

 

[AnonymousSauce]

Unrelated, but I have a bit of a soft spot for the Taino, though I'm a little biased, considering I have Taino ancestry. It's one of the reasons I started to get into Native American history in general.

I do too.

 

[Tempered Zen]

I do too.

That's cool! Where are you from?

 

[M79]

a) Roman shipwreck likely near Sheriff Rock/Pedra do Xareu in Guanabara Bay:
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/10/world/rio-artifacts-may-indicate-roman-visit.html

b) Amphore found near Roatan Island, Honduras, 1972:
http://www.bayislandsvoice.com/roat...eries-could-change-history-books-201006011635

C) We're still finding parts of the older Inka road system. The source is questionable but the Bolivia portion approximates federal highway 5 then federal highway 7 between Potosi and Santa Cruz de la Sierra before picking up what looks like a much older highway/road running south of and parallel to federal highway 4 until reaching Puerto Quijarro opposite Brazilian Corumba. Following the Paraguay River, the next portion picks up on the Brazilian side of La Victoria/Porto Casado and continues to Guiana. Seems interesting for the 1524 reports if nothing else.

 

[M79]

That's cool! Where are you from?

Here's something odd to consider. Terra Calalus, 'the exalted land', was a term for some area known to late Romans and early Dark Age Europeans used the term. It may have been where the refugees from Lisbon were trying to get if they actually did flee in the first half of the eighth century. The uber-deep air-filled cave in the Dominican Republic that goes far below sea level may hold far more answers than we are yet aware.

Update: They are called the Pomier Caves and may go 1000 feet or more below sea level. As far as I know they are not entirely explored yet.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomier_Caves

 

[WiLMS7111992]

Unrelated, but I have a bit of a soft spot for the Taino, though I'm a little biased, considering I have Taino ancestry. It's one of the reasons I started to get into Native American history in general.

Likewise, I have a biased soft spot for the Lenape due to have lived in New Jersey for over 20 years, and because of my strong nostalgic fondness of both New Jersey and curiosity of Native American history and culture of the northeast region, I've did a lot of research over the years to figure out ways East Algonquian groups could succeed and innovate.

As for harbor towns, I have plans for a few trade based cities propping up at the mouth of the major river systems, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Just as much as you'd expect from a riverine oriented civilization(s).

The bigger harbor cities would likely rise from the bigger rivers, that being the Potomac river (which could give rise to a Washington D.C. analog), the Susquehanna river (Baltimore or Havre de Grace analog), the Delaware river (Philadelphia), and the Hudson river (New York City). Going by that logic, the mouth of the Mississippi would likely harbor the largest harbor city in eastern North America, which would likely be a New Orleans analog, possibly comparatively larger than OTL if the Mississippian civilization plays a major role in your timeline. If the Chitimacha are present in your timeline, in the same spot as OTL that being New Orleans, will they be important trade partners with the Taino?

 

[UnaiB]

I recently read the following message in this thread (https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...and-expand-into-america.472520/#post-19286122), and I think it might be helpful for the TL if ITTL the viking Vinland is more successful than IOTL:

As for Vinland itself, honestly I see it expanding in a way similar to how the Norse did in the Irish Sea, taking all the minor islands and having a bunch of coastal holdings but not much inland. It'd be a compeltely decentralized system, with occasional raiding and trading, but no real nation building apart from the occasional shortlived warlord. Maybe even a big push inland along major rivers like the St. Lawrence or Hudson, similar to how they held a lot of Northern England like York for awhile.

 

[FranzAncheNo]

PAY ATTENTION TO DISEASES.
As the mighty @Skallagrim, once said:​

I neglected to mention that part of the susceptibility of the Native Americans to Old World diseases derived from their immune system, particularly the major histocompatibility complex (MHC) of Native American individuals. There are countless MHC types, and a foreign element that gets past some will not get past others. Most human populations contain many MHC types, yet Native Americans are very homogenous in this regard. Francis L. Black (of Yale) compared native South Americans to Sub-Saharan Africans on this count: whereas one out of three native South Americans have similar MHC types, it is one in 200 for the Sub-Saharan Africans. (And the latter are fairly 'normal' in this regard.)

The fact that Native Americans derive from a relatively small ancestral population has simply painted a target on their backs, immunity-wise. Their absurdly low number of MHC types simply has major consequences when it comes to the deadliness of epidemics. This factor should not be underestimated, and reveals why even diseases that were very dangerous to Europeans - like smallpox - were even more dangerous and detrimental to the Native Americans. Bottom line is that any disease simply had a much greater chance of being deadly for a much greater number of Native Americans than it was ever deadly to Europeans. Even without settler colonialism, and even if a stroke of luck spread variola minor ahead of variola major, the vulnerable MHC of the Native Americans will still ensure that they'd be hit much harder than the Europeans.

The obvious way to deal with this is... intermarriage with Europeans. Mestizo populations simply had a better immune system, basically borrowing all those extra European MHC types, and thrived as a result.

 

[AnonymousSauce]

That's cool! Where are you from?

I'm from Texas, originally, but my dad's side of the family is from Puerto Rico.

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Q: are we going to have a New World major religion (a la Christianity, Buddhism, Islam?)

 

[Tempered Zen]

a) Roman shipwreck likely near Sheriff Rock/Pedra do Xareu in Guanabara Bay:
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/10/world/rio-artifacts-may-indicate-roman-visit.html

b) Amphore found near Roatan Island, Honduras, 1972:
http://www.bayislandsvoice.com/roat...eries-could-change-history-books-201006011635

C) We're still finding parts of the older Inka road system. The source is questionable but the Bolivia portion approximates federal highway 5 then federal highway 7 between Potosi and Santa Cruz de la Sierra before picking up what looks like a much older highway/road running south of and parallel to federal highway 4 until reaching Puerto Quijarro opposite Brazilian Corumba. Following the Paraguay River, the next portion picks up on the Brazilian side of La Victoria/Porto Casado and continues to Guiana. Seems interesting for the 1524 reports if nothing else.

Besides maybe the part about the Inca roads, though I'm a little skeptical of Incas in Guiana, I highly doubt the evidence of Roman presence in the Americas. If somehow the finds are true, it represents nothing more than a very lost Roman ship. But the evidence is probably not true anyways. Don't trust everything you read online.

Here's something odd to consider. Terra Calalus, 'the exalted land', was a term for some area known to late Romans and early Dark Age Europeans used the term. It may have been where the refugees from Lisbon were trying to get if they actually did flee in the first half of the eighth century. The uber-deep air-filled cave in the Dominican Republic that goes far below sea level may hold far more answers than we are yet aware.

I don't know, this supposed "Terra Calalus" seems like a hoax. You'd think that if this was true that it would have impacted the world much more than just some Roman sword in the middle of Arizona. And I'm not sure how las Cuevas del Pomier ties into this.

My answer still remains the same on the matter. Tying conspiracy theories into my work isn't really my thing.

Likewise, I have a biased soft spot for the Lenape due to have lived in New Jersey for over 20 years, and because of my strong nostalgic fondness of both New Jersey and curiosity of Native American history and culture of the northeast region, I've did a lot of research over the years to figure out ways East Algonquian groups could succeed and innovate.

That's cool. Are you planning on making a timeline based on your research anytime soon? I'd love to see your take on the scenario.

The bigger harbor cities would likely rise from the bigger rivers, that being the Potomac river (which could give rise to a Washington D.C. analog), the Susquehanna river (Baltimore or Havre de Grace analog), the Delaware river (Philadelphia), and the Hudson river (New York City).

Well, we won't see any analogues of major cities from OTL. What I meant is that since the agricultural package heavily relies on rivers, and likewise trade and transportation, we'll see a few major states based around rivers. I based it on the theory that Proto-Eastern Algonquian diverged into separate peoples very quickly due to localization on each individual river they were based around. We'll see that but on a larger scale. However, the rivers you mentioned are pretty much what I was thinking in terms of major river systems. There's a few more though.

Going by that logic, the mouth of the Mississippi would likely harbor the largest harbor city in eastern North America, which would likely be a New Orleans analog, possibly comparatively larger than OTL if the Mississippian civilization plays a major role in your timeline. If the Chitimacha are present in your timeline, in the same spot as OTL that being New Orleans, will they be important trade partners with the Taino?

Well you aren't entirely wrong. The Mississippi Delta will be pretty important in terms of trade, and they'll introduce sailing to the Taino. There won't be any Missisippians per se, but there'll be a analogue, though it'll be pretty early in the game. The Chitimacha will exist ITTL, and fill a similar role to what you said.

I recently read the following message in this thread (https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...and-expand-into-america.472520/#post-19286122), and I think it might be helpful for the TL if ITTL the viking Vinland is more successful than IOTL:

Vinland won't be more successful than OTL, though they will introduce several things to the Natives. ITTL, alternate historians are going to go crazy writing timelines about "Vikings in Borealamerica". I'll cover Vikings and Vinland in the TL proper.

PAY ATTENTION TO DISEASES.
As the mighty @Skallagrim, once said:​

Diseases, like in OTL, are going to devastate the Native Americans. However, the Natives are going to have a few surprises of their own. And there'll be a migration from the North that will bring more genetic diversity to a certain region.

I'm from Texas, originally, but my dad's side of the family is from Puerto Rico.

Cool! My mom's Dominican, and through facial features and customs it's pretty obvious that we have a good amount of Taino DNA.

Q: are we going to have a New World major religion (a la Christianity, Buddhism, Islam?)

Yes. There'll be a few religions originating from the New World, but most of these are going to be reduced to the same role as Neo-Paganism. Besides that, a lot of Pre-Columbian customs will be incorporated to Christianity in the same vein as la Santa Muerte. However, there will be one religion that will rise to become a major belief system in it's own right.

 

[UnaiB]

So, if Vinland won't be successful ITTL, will America be discovered in 1492 by Columbus as IOTL?

 

[M79]

Besides maybe the part about the Inca roads, though I'm a little skeptical of Incas in Guiana, I highly doubt the evidence of Roman presence in the Americas. If somehow the finds are true, it represents nothing more than a very lost Roman ship. But the evidence is probably not true anyways. Don't trust everything you read online.

A lost Roman ship or two still can provide inspiration or engineering depending on survivors and cargo carried. Polynesian chickens might have a profound impact on the Americas if introduced 500 years earlier even if the Polynesians themselves leave no lasting trace. Creating a reservoir of diseases one at a time instead of all at once might partially mitigate the effects of the plagues that come later as well.

I don't know, this supposed "Terra Calalus" seems like a hoax. You'd think that if this was true that it would have impacted the world much more than just some Roman sword in the middle of Arizona. And I'm not sure how las Cuevas del Pomier ties into this.

The Poimer caves go deep and may still hold lots of interesting secrets at the bottom. We still don't know a great deal about the Taino culture among others. And I had to look up the Arizona connection, the name appears elsewhere along with the Hesperides in reference to distant westward islands.

a) https://books.google.com/books?id=M...#v=onepage&q=Roman america hesperides&f=false

b) https://msp.org/memocs/2018/6-3/mem...FjAKegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2IUlZSk81LgPfhzPdebPAt

c) https://books.google.com/books?id=E...XoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=amphorae roatan&f=false

My answer still remains the same on the matter. Tying conspiracy theories into my work isn't really my thing.

Nor am I suggesting otherwise. Point Rosee in Newfoundland is still controversial and L'anse aux Meadow was for a long time as well. The idea of a Roman fortress near the Elbe or Yemen also might have been thought impossible, yet here we are.

 

[Tempered Zen]

So, if Vinland won't be successful ITTL, will America be discovered in 1492 by Columbus as IOTL?

Basically yes. I don't want to change up the situation in Europe before the 1500's, because that in itself will have immense butterflies that will likely butterfly the events leading up to colonialism in any form that we would understand it. I want to explore the effects that a relatively advanced culture(s) in North America would have on colonization and the world at large, so creating an entire chain reaction in Eurasia would unlock a whole new set of doors.

Maybe in the far future, once I'm done with the TL, me or someone else could write an alternate version of this scenario where the Vikings stay longer in North America. That would certainly be interesting.

*snip*

The evidence does seem like it might lead to something, though I'm still skeptical, and in 10 years there'll probably be an archaeological breakthrough, with some Polynesian version of L'anse aux Meadows being discovered on the coast of Peru. And even though this is all cool, and I covered this to an extent in the post above, the point of this TL isn't really to explore earlier transoceanic contact between the Old World and the New World. It's to explore the development of an advanced civilization in North America.

Even if I did want to include a lost Roman ship introducing diseases and Eurasian technologies to the Americas, I wouldn't be able to justifiably include that as an effect of the POD.

It would be cool if someone wrote a timeline centered around earlier contact with the Americas. I'd read the heck out of a TL like that, if I'm being honest. But I don't think my timeline is the place for that.

By the way, thanks for the articles on the subject. I'll definitely check it out later.

 

[WiLMS7111992]

That's cool. Are you planning on making a timeline based on your research anytime soon? I'd love to see your take on the scenario.

Well, I have two main ideas I though a lot about; one focusing on the Lenape of New Jersey, and the other starring the Kumeyaay of San Diego.

The first timeline idea was the Algonquian natives of the east taking up extensive farming based off of the Eastern Agricultural Complex, and continued raising crops such as little barley, sunflower, goosefoot and knotweed, alongside the more recently introduced three sisters for more efficient crop rotation. At the same time, the Taino/Arawak develop better boats and maritime navigation, spreading north and south until they reach OTL Massachusetts to the North, and OTL Rio de Janeiro to the South. At which point, coastal Algonquian groups such as the Lenape, Powhatan, Wampanoag and the Wabanaki confederacy capitalize on the Taino Trade routes to get a leg up over their inland neighbors, resulting in them gradually becoming on par with Mesoamerican and Mississippian civilizations technologically. As society in the eastern woodlands develop, a cultural arms race develops between the Lenape and the Iroquois, which farther drives innovation as one group tries to outdo the other. By the time the old world comes into contact with the new world, the many cultures of the Americas had become as advanced as any civilization could possible be without horses or iron.

The other timeline idea I had was the Cocopah of the south Colorado river domesticating Nipa Grass (Distichlis palmeri), and agriculture quickly spread to other Yuman-speaking groups of southern California, including the Kumeyaay, who gave rise to a first advanced civilization in California upon taking full advantage of the fact that Nipa Grass can tolerate seawater. The Kumeyaay also domesticated the California quail early on as a source of protean, as well as acorns and prickly pears to achieve a viable agriculture package to support a rapidly growing population within an arid environment. Nipa grass cultivation and quail breeding spread throughout Southern California, with the Tongva, Chumash, Ohlone, Miwok and Yokuts adopting agriculture to keep up with (and to avoid being outcompeted by) their Yuman-speaking neighbors, the Kumeyaay, Cocopah and Cochimi, developing civilizations and city-sates of their own. Yuman-speaking farmers also spread south until they came across the Mesoamerican civilizations, at which point changes became more profound. Mesoamericans added Nipa grass into their agricultural package, with Aztec citizens quickly realizing how valuable this new crop was in arid climates and/or during stronger droughts, allowing Mesoamerican societies to better cope with collapse. Likewise, many Mesoamerican tools, ideas and crops spread north to California, strongly influencing the Cochimi, Cocopah, Kumeyaay, Tongva and Chumash, who successfully catch up to the technological level of Mesoamerica, well before the Spanish arrive.

What do you think of those ideas?

 

[Tempered Zen]

What do you think of those ideas?

Both of these ideas are pretty cool, but IMO I think the second one would be really interesting and unique.

By the way, what's the timeframe for each POD?

 

[Arkenfolm]

The other timeline idea I had was the Cocopah of the south Colorado river domesticating Nipa Grass (Distichlis palmeri), and agriculture quickly spread to other Yuman-speaking groups of southern California, including the Kumeyaay, who gave rise to a first advanced civilization in California upon taking full advantage of the fact that Nipa Grass can tolerate seawater. The Kumeyaay also domesticated the California quail early on as a source of protean, as well as acorns and prickly pears to achieve a viable agriculture package to support a rapidly growing population within an arid environment. Nipa grass cultivation and quail breeding spread throughout Southern California, with the Tongva, Chumash, Ohlone, Miwok and Yokuts adopting agriculture to keep up with (and to avoid being outcompeted by) their Yuman-speaking neighbors, the Kumeyaay, Cocopah and Cochimi, developing civilizations and city-sates of their own. Yuman-speaking farmers also spread south until they came across the Mesoamerican civilizations, at which point changes became more profound. Mesoamericans added Nipa grass into their agricultural package, with Aztec citizens quickly realizing how valuable this new crop was in arid climates and/or during stronger droughts, allowing Mesoamerican societies to better cope with collapse. Likewise, many Mesoamerican tools, ideas and crops spread north to California, strongly influencing the Cochimi, Cocopah, Kumeyaay, Tongva and Chumash, who successfully catch up to the technological level of Mesoamerica, well before the Spanish arrive.

What do you think of those ideas?

I think that civilization is more likely to spread south into Northern Mexico than north to the Central Valley/Bay Area (which was more culturally linked to the Great Basin and interior). And don't forget mesquite trees, which might be better than oak trees for that area.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

I have a idea lets flip the tables let the Algonquins find the old world before the old world finds them. Also when the Algonquins start agriculture the food they store would attract pests and this Civilization is based on rivers. So maybe minks could fill the role cats did in the old world.

 

[Tempered Zen]

I have a idea lets flip the tables let the Algonquins find the old world before the old world finds them. Also when the Algonquins start agriculture the food they store would attract pests and this Civilization is based on rivers. So maybe minks could fill the role cats did in the old world.

Regarding the first idea, no. That would be very improbable, and besides, even if they wanted too, they'll lack the technology to sail across the Atlantic. It's not like we're talking about island hopping, we're talking about sailing across the ocean for weeks on end with no land in sight.

And yes, pests will be covered in detail the timeline proper. And with pests, come diseases, but I'm getting ahead of myself. There'll also be a certain animal that will be domesticated as a verminator. Not minks, though they could serve as a niche or abandoned domesticate. I've read that they can work with dogs to hunt rodents, so we could see that happening in some cases.