The people don't help
The botanists don't help
The world don't help
If anyone helps
The end is near
And will begin with botanics
A Pre-Columbian North American Timeline Planning Thread
- Thread starter Tempered Zen
- Start date
The people don't help
The botanists don't help
The world don't help
If anyone helps
The end is near
And will begin with botanics
I can't do much to save Teotihuacan (butterflies start to affect Mesoamerica around 600CE) but after it collapses, Mesoamerica will be very different from OTL, though I don't want to spoil too much.
As for the Incas, I was initially going to have butterflies not penetrate that far into South America, but after some reading, I have a few ideas for the Andes. I don't think that there will be any Inca like empires reaching that far south, as the region will be much more divided, but you never know. I might change my mind.
By Silver River I assume you mean Rio de la Plata? If so, that's cool. Do you have any further reading on the subject?
This Civilization your making they are Algonquin speakers right. Will they be a Indo European or Bantu equivalent spreading their language and pantheon across The continent? Also how will they interact with the Mesoamericans will it be trade war migration? Will they exchange crops and livestock? I mean these two civs have a lot to trade. The Mesoamericans have spices Coco honey Gold and Jade. While the Algonquins have wine Jams Furs hemp metals and maybe Maple Syrup.
Two words: maple "mead". A tradition of brewing combined with a larger population base could help make this jump, which is admittedly challenging due to maple syrup's chemistry versus honey. I'd assume you'd mix it with certain berries during the fermentation. Speaking of honey, I'm curious as to if any bee species north of the Southwest/Mexico are domesticatible. Only stingless bees (like those kept by the Maya) seem to be able to produce honey in any real quantity, and those aren't able to thrive in most of the United States.
Yes, they are, and they'll spread a la Indo-European, but it's nothing that didn't happen in OTL. It's one of the first things I will cover, and will be used as a framing device of sorts. Different dialects will spread in different regions, and I have a few regions that will have Algonquian speakers that didn't in OTL, and vice versa. Any map of Algonquian's OTL range will serve as a good visual of the general range of Algonquian expansion, though not completely accurate in detail.
There will also be a handful of languages that will take very divergent paths location wise. By the time Columbus comes rolling around, the Americas will be very different linguistically.
As for religion, I have a lot of ideas in that section that I'm very excited to share. Mythology and its spread and evolution overtime is another one of my favorite topics. So stay tuned for that.
I don't want to go into too many details, but your ideas aren't too far off. The exchange between these two areas will have a lot of layers, so I'll leave the bulk of it for the TL. The trade commodities (well, some of them) you've mentioned are a good starting point, but there will be plenty more interchanged between Mesoamerica and North America (what should we call it? Borealamerica?).
Oh, maple syrup will be a huge part of cuisine for the Algonquians. It's going to become a very valuable trade item. Expect to read a lot of everything maple related in the timeline proper.
Yes, maple "mead" (I believe it's officially acerglyn) will be brewed by the Algonquians. I've read a bit about it on a few forums, and the consensus is split on whether it is a good beverage in its own right, or if it's better adjunct to another beverage. I've decided for varieties with more pure maple content to be regarded as a status of wealth, while varieties with less maple content being more common among everyday folk. Once trade opens up with other peoples, maple mead will be a much sought after commodity.
Regarding honey, stingless bees are only found in more tropical zones, so honey will be a trade good from Mesoamerica. Honey in the North will serve the same role as Maple in the South, a very valuable trade commodity. I'm envisioning a sort of Maple/Honey "Silk Road" propping up.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Refer to the post above for an idea of what I'm planning.
About the religion I had a idea. Most of the livestock the Algonquins keep are birds. So it would make sense for them to have a bird like Agriculture or fertility god. And a they seem to have a big sweet tooth their love of Maple Syrup and fruit will cause tooth decay. So this culture can have super advanced Dentistry. But what does the average person have more access to Berry wine Or Maple mead or do they kinda blend together has they are made in a similar way.
Interesting ideas.
I can't really answer the first question, because I want some things to be saved for the timeline, but we'll see
.Dental wise, as in OTL, the Native Americans have a relatively useful system of dental care, with the use of chew sticks among other things. I'll cover it in detail in the timeline proper.
And to answer your last question, I answered that in my most recent previous post, so here it is:
Thanks for all the posts by the way! I'm glad you're interested in the topic, and it's been fun answering your questions.
I want to do something with Ritwan (and the Pacific Northwest in general), though I've gone back and forth on what I'm going to do. Currently, I have plans butterflies to spread into the Northwest via the Snake River circa 1000BC. AFAIK, at this point in time the Ritwans were still in the Columbia Plateau, but I'm not too sure where exactly.
I can’t wait for this timeline. One of the biggest issues that really plagued some Native communities on the East Coast was mostly a lack of crops (not maize but other more essential) that could help feed and sustain larger populations. With there being more agriculture ITTL, East coast culture will probably turn begin their own little version of the “Sengoku Jidai”, in which chieftains and tribes begin battling each other, slowly wiping or absorbing their neighboring tribes, and developing their societies even more. The Great Lakes itself could easily be home to multiple warring tribes/peoples, resembling Japan during the warring periods.
I’m also interesting if your agricultural package will spread to the Great Plains.
I’m also interesting if your agricultural package will spread to the Great Plains.
Some crops will spread more than others, and as agriculture spreads, different regions will domesticate plants that weren't in the original agricultural package. In the Pre Columbian period, Borealamerican crops will be found everywhere between Isthmo-Colombia and the tree line.
Thanks! There will be a few cultures at different points in time that will fit your analogy.
The Great Lakes won't really be the home of particularly warring states, though the initial clash between Algonquians and the peoples of the Old Copper Complex will get pretty nasty. Besides that, I'm planning something more along the lines of Carthage than Rome, for lack of a better analogy.
On the other hand, the people of the Great Lakes will play a direct role in the invention of more than a few innovations that will revolutionize warfare in North America.
The Great Plains (especially the regions surrounding rivers) will adopt a few crops from my agricultural package, as well as becoming a center of plant domestication in it's own right.
Does anyone have any concrete information on the history of Siouan languages? Originally I assumed that Core-Siouan broke up after the disintegration of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere, with Mandan the first to diverge after leaving Ohio for the Plains around 700CE, but recently, I've come across a few vague references citing the breakup of Core-Siouan as early as 1000BC. Is that false or did I have the wrong idea all this time?
twovultures
Donor
Glottochronology is an exercise in frustration, quite honestly and one of those cases where rolling the dice is as any method to choose between which of the competing theories you will apply to your timeline. As I recall from my own reading on the subject, most people put the spread of the Siouan languages in the medieval period, so I guess the 700CE one is the current scholarly consensus unless I'm out of date on the matter.
Looking forward to this. Pre-Columbian TLs are some of my favourites to read so I hope you keep it going for a long time.
Also a hydraulic empire ala Egypt forming in California or along the Rio Grande might be an interesting butterfly further along the line.
Also a hydraulic empire ala Egypt forming in California or along the Rio Grande might be an interesting butterfly further along the line.
Sounds about right. Thanks!
The Northeastern Agricultural Package is mostly riverine based, so expect to see a few hydraulic based civilizations. I don't know about California, but the Rio Grande is a lot closer.
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Use the agricultural package of the Arawak in the Caribbean and perhaps the Rotoan Island finds as inspiration. Wyam in Oregon and 'Terra Calalus' may be helpful too. Roman Corbata/Murophiro can exceed 400 ton cargo capacity by the switch to CE and essentially the Teotihuacan civilization may serve as Rome for the Americas. Roads may have stretched from Peru to the Atlantic and there are still cities being found i the mountains. Polynesians make an excellent source of potential contact while Japanese vessels may drift into the Pacific Northwest as they did at least a few times in OTL