a post war history of the Scandinavian Union

This timeline is going to focus on union between the Scandinavian countries formed in the aftermath of a slightly different second world war in which Sweden is also invaded by Germany along with Denmark and Norway. (Finland might join after the Cold War is over but I am getting ahead of myself)

The story is mostly going to be told via transcripts of youtube videos from this alternate world and I am going to focus on quite small things. One video from a J.J Mccollough-esque channel might tell the story of a prime minister of Scandinavia or how the country itself is made up. A sports youtubers (I don't know any sport youtubers) video might tell you about how the Scandinavian football team won the World Cup against all odds.

I have never done anything like this before and I don't have all of it planned out yet so it is going to be interesting to see how this develops
 
The following is a transcript of a youtube video by youtuber Jens Sabroe (a J.J Mccollough-esque youtube channel in this alternate universe)

Hello Friends, Jens here - youtubes favourite Scandinavian. Today I'm actually on location in Gothenburg, the seat of the federal government and so I thought it would be appropriate to talk about how said government actually functions.

Like most governments the Scandinavian federal government is made up of three branches, the executive branch, the legislative branch and the judicial branch. The executive branch or the government is lead by the Prime minister who lives in this fancy schmansy place. You can see that he isn't home at the moment because there are no guards outside.

göteborgs rådhus.jpg



The prime ministers job is is to lead the government and decide the laws we should have and how the laws that we already have should be implemented. Most of the actual work though is done by the ministers and their respective departments, so the prime minister mostly just coordinates between the ministers and makes the broader important decisions that you hear about on the news.

Next up, the legislative branch.

(jump cut to another location)

The legislative branch is divided between the Ting or parliament and the Råd or council. The relationship between the two is similar to the German Bundestag and Bundesrat. One thing that I learned when doing the research for this video is that when the Scandinavian constitution was created in the late forties and early fifties is just how much inspiration we took from the west German constitution, at least on federal topics such as the federal legislature and how much autonomy the federal states are given.

Anyway the Ting is basically your standard European parliament, elections to it are held every four years and they vote on all federal laws. The speaker of the parliament is the one who gets to nominate people for prime minister and form a government then the parliament votes on if they think the nominee is acceptable. Every single member of the government actually has to answer to parliament and not just the head of the government like in Germany.

The Råd is made up of representatives from every state elected in state elections which are held at the same time as the election to the federal parliament and (much like in Germany) handle things that concern the states. The speaker of the Råd is the one who nominates the president who then has to be accepted by the Råd. The president does not really do much being an entirely ceremonial figure, he opens bridges and gives out medals sometimes but that is about it. So he mostly just sits around in his palace, Gunnebo slot just outside the city. Many of my Gothenburg viewers have told me that its basically an unwritten rule that every Gothenburg middle schooler will go on a field trip there at least ones.

Gunnebo slott.jpg


The judicial branch is a bit different from other countries though, we do have a Supreme Court but they don't really work with the constitution like supreme courts do in other countries, it's just the highest ranking court in the country. The ones who make sure no laws goes against the constitution is KU or konstitutionsutskottet or the constitution committee in English and they are actually a part of the parliament (kinda)

And that is how the federal government functions be sure to tell me if there's anything you think I should make a more focused video on, I had to be a bit brief in this video.
See you all next week!
 
Last edited:
Is it wrong that I read that in J.J.'s voice? :p

EDIT: Also, are the states Denmark, Norway and Sweden, or do they also include the Faroe Islands, Greenland and Iceland?
 

Devvy

Donor
Is it wrong that I read that in J.J.'s voice? :p

EDIT: Also, are the states Denmark, Norway and Sweden, or do they also include the Faroe Islands, Greenland and Iceland?

If it's post WW2, then Iceland is already independent; whether it chooses to participate will depend on the powers it has to sacrifice. Presumably the Faroes and Greenland are included under the Danish Realm membership.

Quite interested to see who the head of state is, and how that conundrum has been solved!
 
If it's post WW2, then Iceland is already independent; whether it chooses to participate will depend on the powers it has to sacrifice. Presumably the Faroes and Greenland are included under the Danish Realm membership.

Quite interested to see who the head of state is, and how that conundrum has been solved!

I don't really want to really want to reveal all of the member states yet. My idea at the moment is that the union is a parliamentary federal republic so the head of state is a president. My reasoning for this is that in this alternate universe the constitution was mostly written by social democrats and liberals who both were against monarchy.
 
I don't really want to really want to reveal all of the member states yet. My idea at the moment is that the union is a parliamentary federal republic so the head of state is a president. My reasoning for this is that in this alternate universe the constitution was mostly written by social democrats and liberals who both were against monarchy.
Are the constituent states Monarchies since Haakon VII was really popular in Norway so I don't see them abolishing the monarchy.
 
Norway entering into a federal union with Sweden would be anathema to most of the norwegian population. The two economies are just too different with fundamentally conflicting interests.
 
I am trying to figure out the major cities role and would appreciate your help and feedback.

I am thinking that Stockholm, Copenhagen and Gothenburg has sort of a Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra relationship with Stockholm being Sydney, Copenhagen being Melbourne and Gothenburg being Canberra.

(For those who don't know Sydney is like the financial centre of Australia while Melbourne is more of a cultural centre and Canberra is obviously the capitol)

But I have no idea how large the population of each city should be and I don't know what has happened to Oslo and Reykjavik in this universe
 

Devvy

Donor
I am trying to figure out the major cities role and would appreciate your help and feedback.

I am thinking that Stockholm, Copenhagen and Gothenburg has sort of a Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra relationship with Stockholm being Sydney, Copenhagen being Melbourne and Gothenburg being Canberra.

(For those who don't know Sydney is like the financial centre of Australia while Melbourne is more of a cultural centre and Canberra is obviously the capitol)

But I have no idea how large the population of each city should be and I don't know what has happened to Oslo and Reykjavik in this universe

It'll depend upon the PoD, but I agree that Gothenburg is a prime candidate for your "federal capital" for much the same reason as Canberra is the capital of Aus; it's roughly equidistant from the major players as a compromise. Gothenburg sits nicely in the rough middle of Stockholm, Oslo and Copenhagen, the central 3 of the Nordic 5.

As for how the cities look; that'll depend wildly upon how your PoD is played out (so without knowing the PoD I can't really suggest much!). Stockholm and Copenhagen both have major roles even before being united, and will continue to. The role of Oslo, as the capital of a country which has only been fully independent since the early part of the 20th Century, is an important one; you won't tempt Norway (or any of the nations) without a careful distribution of powers - unless you imagine force being used.

For Reykjavik, for similar reasons (only just fully independent, with a small population and delicate economy, the distribution of powers will be crucial in being able to attract it in to the group willingly.
 
I started a response to this thread early on, but it bogged down in electoral speculations, which certainly did depend on the composition of the Union--just the three kingdoms initially, or including Iceland from the get-go was a major conundrum for me.

Not actually that difficult to go either way actually--if we assume a baseline constituency number of Ting seats for the Union as a whole, and apportion strictly by each nation's population, Iceland would get the minimum of course.

I am in process of modeling a 1950 Ting election based on the OTL populations and the actual votes for the previous legislatures in each kingdom (and Iceland)--which were between 1947 and 1949. Apportioning by population, I figured on 153 baseline constituency seats (in 3 member Single Transferable Vote constituencies, hence 51 districts) and with that we get 72 Ting seats, thus 24 districts, for Sweden, 45 and thus 15 districts for Denmark, 33 thus 11 districts for Norway, and one district with 3 seats for Iceland. I could of course easily omit Iceland! And Iceland is a bit overrepresented this way. Originally I went with 151 seats each apportioned directly to the nations, which differs only in that Iceland gets two and Denmark just 44.

In either case I assume, since you stress modeling on the German Federal Republic a lot, that something analogous to MMP exists--that is, in the single seat FPTP constituency case with 151 constituency seats, there are 60 percent more (that is, 3/5, or 90) "party list" seats. All three kingdoms and Iceland too were quite accustomed to party list PR elections, albeit with some peculiar modifications, so going over to FPTP single member districts would be a jolt for them--least so for Iceland I suppose, but even they have kept party list PR to the present day OTL.

I decided some time ago that trying to post all this work I have been doing here would bog down the thread on minutia you as author would regard as a distraction from the main purpose of the thread, and either I would PM you when done or post it on another thread I started a long time ago in Chat about electoral systems, or make a new one. It has been a lot of work, but fun!

Briefly, I switched over to 3 member Single Transferable Vote for the constituencies which I am processing now (have done Sweden and Denmark, and am about to tackle Norway and Iceland, as noted Iceland is easily dropped though that results in even numbers for the Ting seats) for several reasons.

1) STV is a fair rough approximation of PR, sort of, that sidesteps the question of formal recognition of parties. This is far less of a controversy in Scandinavia that it is trying to get implemented in places like Britain or the USA, where people come out of the woodwork proclaiming Parties Are the Devil. Never mind that every damn republic in the history of the world forms parties! And voters count on them. There are definitely evils and dangers in giving established parties too much power--and by golly some of the worst examples of this happen in countries where the basic electoral mechanism is formally agnostic about parties, posing contests as between individual candidates allegedly. I think it is important to grant them the right kind of recognition, to best enable voters to make the parties their instrument and not the other way round, and pretending not to recognize them opens the door for party machines to reign supreme. But just maybe perhaps, in negotiating a union of three Scandinavian kingdoms, offering a baseline election mechanism where party affiliation is a point of information for the voters to consider rather than handing those parties control of who exactly gets elected might smooth the way.

2) Ireland offers a working example, as of 1950 going on a quarter century of operation, of STV in practice, nearer to hand than say Australia. As of 1950, Irish voters had persistently given power to one of two moderate parties, usually Fianna Fail, sometimes Fine Gael, the latter especially generally in coalition with smaller parties. This would give reassurance to the big parties--various social democrats under various labels, versus liberals again under various labels--and facilitate elections that do not have to involve union-wide fusions of the various national parties.

3) in the spirit of MMP, particularly in the form it was offered in Germany in 1949 (soon modified, but not perhaps before the Scandinavian Union forms) a plain and simple mechanism exists to enable meaningful definition of party-proportion while giving voters a single vote nominally to elect a single person in their constituency--which is why it could work with FPTP too. I believe in 1949, the Federal Republic of Germany elections proceeded on the basis of individual candidates being voted for in their constituencies by the voters, and whatever party the candidate each voter voted for stood for was accounted as winning one party vote as well. Then the party-proportional shares for each party would have their constituency wins subtracted from them, and this would determine the number of party-list makeup seats.

We could do something similar for STV. In Ireland it is routine for elections to be reported in terms of the voters' first preference choices defining a party proportion, which we can compare seat victories to. In the SU, it would be possible to do this formally, to count each voter's first candidate preference as a vote for that candidate's party, to define how many seats these parties ought to win. It works the same with FPTP or STV.

4) my assumption was, with FPTP, which I evaluated first, the deviation between outcomes for 151 seats and proportional for that number would be so great, that about 60 percent or perhaps even more additional seats would have to be added to raise up the parties shortchanged, whereas with STV, while serious deviations from proportionality occur, these would be lower in magnitude, allowing a much smaller number of added seats to suffice. Well, with Sweden, it seemed this was the case though less dramatically than I imagined, about 45 percent level-up seats were required considering Sweden's share alone (in truth one would lump the whole Union together, which might cancel out some discrepancies if I allow for some party mergers). But then in Denmark, to iron the total seats out to strict proportionality required nearly doubling the number of seats! (This could have been an artifact of unreasonable assumptions I might have made about vote transfers under STV). I have just crafted the arbitrary though I think justifiable model of constituency votes for Norway and not run STV on it yet.

Anyway, at worst, it seems about like we'd expect from FPTP single member districts, and I think Scandinavians would prefer STV 3 member districts to that anyway, let the chips fall where they may.
-----
Since your first posts, you have revealed a bit more.

I am quite surprised you think the Union would adopt a symbolic republican President as head of Union, on the French or Irish model, rather than simply name the three kings (and possibly President of Iceland) as constitutional collective head-of-state council. Of the three monarchs in 1950, the Swedish one might be particularly unpopular (though I suspect if Sweden were invaded or a pro-Nazi Quisling coup orchestrated, even that king would recoil and join with Haakon in resistance, on Swedish soil or in exile). If in fact the Swedish king collaborated, he'd be deposed postwar in short order, and some new monarch who would be much more popular elevated. I forget if Haakon lived to 1950 but his son would also be quite popular, as would the Danish king. Two popular kings outvote one under a reactionary cloud, and after all having one of three be more right wing conciliates the not inconsiderable number of the Scandinavian conservative minority.

Yes, the balance of opinion in Scandinavia was clearly progressive and somewhat republican, but on the other hand all three kingdoms have gone through generations without anti-royalist views amounting to serious agitation for republicanism. In Norway, the King is relied on to be an impartial arbiter on certain issues, such as whether elections are conducted fairly and revisions if any of electoral district bounds and apportionment.

I'd think the Union would want to stress it is not a hegemony of one kingdom over others by having a collective head of state, with the heads of state from each nation being constitutionally limited and checked--the strong executive would presumably the Prime Minister or Chancellor, and IIRC you've already specified even this person is somewhat bypassed by responsibility of each minister of each department separately to the Ting, not under personal control of the Chancellor. Also, of course with four nations, and even more so with just the three kingdoms, the nations of the Union have a lot more moral authority and probably constitutional power than the Länder do in the German Federal Republic. The Union clearly is a federation and not actually a strong Union.

I was privately musing on the possible evolution of the Union over the generations; Iceland seems sure to join eventually, if not perhaps until after the Cold War ends with Russian collapse (which seems likely in some form or other). With Soviet collapse, or even just retreat, it seems that would free up Finland, and quite possibly all three Baltic republics (surely Estonia, as closely affiliated with Finland, but also for both current geopolitical reasons and historic ones, Latvia, and possibly even Lithuania too). Now I think that is the ultimate limit--Poland is clearly out of bounds, as is Germany (unless Germany were fragmented perhaps, but that is clearly not the case here). Greenland might be reconstituted as a tiny (in population!) Republic, or even kingdom. Perhaps even the Faeroes might be spun off as independent within the Union (no way either would be viable without either remaining Danish or within a larger Union though). So that is as many as seven republics to set against the three Scandinavian kingdoms. There is little reason the basic Union structure could not extend to this. The question of a State council such as I assumed would be a bit vexed though. Considering how small the Atlantic members would be in population, I think a structure privileging the three kings but with checks and balances giving the republican Presidents some serious weight, and creating incentives and norms for collegial consensus, would be workable.

Now if we want a commoner President to stand above all, that sidesteps all this neatly, but on the other hand raises vexing and possibly divisive issues about the national identity of the President. A custom, or even formal constitutional rule, institutionalizing rotating nationality--such as most parties tacitly agreeing to only nominate candidates for President from one nation per election, and rotating that nation--first election is between Swedes, next one between Danes, next Norwegian candidates, and round and round adding in more nations by population up to say 10--might work.

Another approach is weighing each nation's vote for the Presidency by the number of terms it has been since anyone from there was elected--so if all nations are equal in 1950, and the outcome is a Swede gets elected, with each party's candidate coming randomly from any nation, then the 1954 (or say the President has a single 6 year term as in Mexico, deliberately derailed from the Ting electoral cycle--so heck, let's make it 7 years to really mix it up--so, 1957) all Union citizens vote the same--except that Swedes get one vote but everyone else gets two. So we elect a Norwegian for second President, and then in 1964, which note is not an election year for the Ting either, Norwegians get one vote each, Swedes get two, but Danes and Icelanders (if in the Union, that is) three. Thus if Danes and Icelanders feel strongly about not wanting either a Swede or Norwegian this time, they have extra power to tip the balance to presumably a Dane, or perhaps an Icelander the Danes and a fair number of Swedes and Norwegians like. Say this improbable thing happens, so we have an Icelander President until 1971--in that election, Danes have four votes, Swedes three, Norwegians two, and Icelanders only one--but just maybe, a majority wants another Icelander, or to reelect the same guy (or woman!) from last time, liking them--come 1978, the first Presidential election since 1950 to coincide with a Ting election, say this Madame President from Iceland is world reknowned and much liked all through the Union, she wins a third term to 1985 despite her own nation's electoral base being practically nothing-now the Danes, who have never seen a Danish President, have five votes, the Swedes four, Norwegians three. Iceland's own vote is a small footnote, but OTOH one of their own is a major international figure as symbolizing the unity of the entire Union. Sooner or later nations that have accumulated hugely disproportional shares will see one of their own elected, unless they actively avoid that by refusing to run a candidate--but meanwhile the difference between say 6 votes for each Dane but 5 for each Swede closes the gap.

Meanwhile in this kind of system modeled on Germany, after all the Head of State is not really all that powerful, though they might have certain powers and responsibilities that are crucial in a crisis.

I think at the very least, having an elected Union President who is a commoner would not be the whole story even just on the Union level. The monarchs have a special dignity that needs to be respected and has a constituency, and also uses, given that the monarchs are not going to be too far out of step with the consensus of Scandinavian Union society as a whole.

I think in addition to your Råd analogous to the Germans Ländstag, which is an organ that represents and harmonizes Union policy with the respective national governments, a State Council of all the heads of the respective states--at minimum for a three member Union, the three kings--should also exist, to both assist and watch the Union President. The custom, again possibly written in constitutionally, could be to either rotate a tie-breaking chair among the crowned monarchs only, or for the State Council members-the monarchs and presidents of the various nations--to elect one of the three kings to this position.

There is of course no need at all for a fourth monarch to be king or emperor over all others; I just wonder how important it is to have a President even.

Naturally I am assuming the President is not empowered with much governmental power--the example of the President of Ireland could be referred to; all acts of the Irish government are formally in the President's name, but the President has few though sometimes potentially crucial powers.
-------
Another thing that has to emerge with your revelations of how you conceive the ATL situation is the Union's relationship to the Cold War.

I presume that the Soviet Union and the bloc of nations it controls are much as OTL, with Stalin behaving much as he did and dying around the same time, followed by Khrushchev and so on, though it is open ended what the ultimate fate of the USSR is. What is relevant is the global situation as of the late 1940s. It is unclear to what extent Sweden was brought into the war--whether the Nazis managed to get sweeping control over all Sweden much as they did Norway, or merely attempted to and a major war front opened up within Sweden (which could be sustainable only if part of Norway, in the north, fell out of Axis control presumably by concentrated insurrection and subsequent Allied liberation say of Trondheim on north, or anyway Narvik--otherwise any Swedish resistance would be cut off, unless this all happened so late Soviet troops were occupying north Finland, and I don't see the Swedes being very enthusiastic at Soviet liberation. Though they might be and yet manage to shake off Soviet influence anyway). Perhaps a grossly ATL situation where the British manage to secure northern Norway, Narvik on north, in 1940, causing a hot front but a narrow one both sides could sustain as sideshow and the northern Norwegian government with British and later US and Soviet help, secure a hard border using the terrain and heavy air power and naval forces. (Certainly worthwhile versus the OTL situation where the Axis threatened far to the North out of northern Norwegian bases!)Then Hitler might think to sidestep this stalemate by dodging through north Sweden, and to secure that, seizing control of Sweden through an attempted "Quisling" coup to be aided heavily with Wehrmacht and SS and Gestapo--only to see the Swedes rise up against it, get supply and aid via Narvik, hold the north to hold that open, and pen in the Germans against the Norwegian mountains with lots of help from the Norwegian resistance and a heavy pouring in of air support via Narvik to eastern Sweden, holding in the Luftwaffe while the Swedish navy engages with whatever is left of the German surface fleet and U-boats in the Baltic.

It is unclear how any of these scenarios would shift the matter of the sentiments regarding allying with the Western powers versus seeking detente with the Soviet Union. The sentiment for the latter is pretty limited, though OTL more extensive in Norway than one might imagine thinking too simplistically. Simplistically put, the USSR was allied to the Third Reich when Hitler invaded Norway and the Communists of Norway were opposed to the Norwegian government in exile. Sooner than Hitler broke the pact with Moscow and invaded in 1941 though, Norwegian Communists did start resisting Nazi rule--in large part as a matter of personal survival of course since they were all targets for execution! Still, they did develop a gung ho, adventurous attitude toward Resistance, in only loose and wayward cooperation with the disciplined official Norwegian resistance--which was formally speaking, a branch of the Royal military, and held to keeping a useful but low profile of intelligence gathering and passive resistance for the most part until late in the war. The Reds were the trouble makers, especially after Barbarossa gave them full rein to attacking the Nazis quite self-righteously. Now despite their differences, grassroots resistance experience won the Norwegian Communists a lot of respect and they polled over 10 percent in the 1945 elections there. This however started to erode fast as loyal Communists were bound to follow Stalin's directives, and took on the moral burden of Stalin's reprehensible actions. Long before WWII, there was little love lost between the popular Second International social democratic parties in Scandinavia and the militant Third International Communists in all three kingdoms; wartime cooperation offered a potential bridge (actual in Iceland!) between the socialist wings, but hardline Stalinist policy undermined it again.

Even at the peak of their prestige and general credit, the Reds were a suspect minority of course. No kingdom in Scandinavia was going to go Red by free election, though had Stalin or some ATL Soviet leader pursued a softer and more conciliatory line we can hardly rule out they might in theory have gone farther left and taken a conciliatory geopolitical position, perhaps. With Stalin as OTL, that is out the window. Scandinavia however organized stands against Soviet expansionism.

So the question is--do they stand as formal allies of the US/British/French neo-Entente of Western Allies, soon to be formalized as NATO? OTL, Norway and Denmark and Iceland all opted for NATO membership, though the Reds in Denmark remained strong enough to refuse NATO airbases on Danish soil--for a time. I believe that resistance did not outlast the 1950s, certainly the USAF had (and has) a major base at Thule in Greenland, and I am fairly sure Danish airfields were fully integrated into NATO operations by the 1970s if not earlier. (Part of the Danish agreement regarding Thule was that the USA was not to base anything nuclear there--an agreement I am not sure how well was ever kept, and OTL there was a proposal for a missile basing system called ICEWORM that would have flouted this stipulation massively--it was not realized in operation, and OTL the Danish government was never informed of the plan, it is unclear what would have happened if ICEWORM had been feasible and the US went ahead with it). Sweden on the other hand has always maintained formal neutrality--albeit I think everyone (except perhaps some insanely ideological right wingers perhaps) has regarded Sweden's forces as de facto allies of NATO. Sweden's plans focus on Swedish self defense but this is taken for granted as a benefit to Western defense plans against Russian aggression, and the Swedes of course count on the Russians having bigger fish to fry than just theirs should they go on the offensive.

So I see two major alternatives here:

1) Scandinavian Union in NATO as a charter member. Two of three kingdom governments and a republic all opted for that OTL--but not the largest single nation, and not the one closest to the front line. Against that latter fear, Finland is a buffer of sorts, a tripwire--Soviet takeover there would sound an alarm and probably provoke WWIII in itself, and it would take time for Soviet force to project over prostate Finland and the Gulf of Bothnia, in which time NATO could rally to threaten the entire Warsaw Pact on a broad front running far south of Sweden. Still there is no question Swedish cities and bases would be at near pointblank range of Soviet air attacks and of course just handfuls of minutes away from Soviet intermediate range missile launches. But this is true whether Sweden is in NATO or out of it; the chief reason to stay out is to avoid tying policy to Western superpower notions (and indeed the Western European members had reason to be nervous about possible Yankee high handedness and/or irresponsibility--until the 1960s, the continental USA, the 48 states that is, were largely out of reach of Soviet retaliation, and American policymakers could practice brinksmanship risking only the mass destruction of their allies, not our own core). But Sweden "inside the NATO tent pissing out, rather than outside pissing in" to borrow Lyndon Johnson's crude metaphor, bolstered by the combined population and influence of Denmark and Norway, not to mention possibly Iceland for its strategic role, would have influence on Western allied councils, and the one thing I think a Scandinavian Union would operate on a Union level for sure is defense. In effect, Sweden's own power to defend itself is nearly doubled, and the two western kingdoms could be counted on to support this because they largely shelter behind Swedish cover--sort of; Denmark is in big trouble if the Red Army advances along the Baltic coast to reach her longitudes.

The alternative
2) is of course the SU as Sweden writ large--all three kingdoms refusing to directly submit to what amounts to Yankee command in NATO. An intermediate position, with the SU being part in and part out on lines similar to those France would adopt under DeGaulle in the 1960s, is possible on paper, and might emerge from either starting as a NATO member as with France, or from an aloof SU partnering up with NATO later. But I think such a between-stools position would be avoided in 1950! Either in or out.

Out, the SU basically would craft its own relationship with Moscow, and that is pretty sure to be a pretty chilly one. The Union as a whole would build up pretty expensive and large forces on its own account, maybe with some Yankee aid, but largely on its own and under Union direction alone. As such, I suppose the OTL plans for Sweden to go nuclear would be followed through on by the Union as a whole; by the time the Soviets have useful IRBMs and even quite short range submarine launched missiles, the latter almost certainly cruise missiles first, then ballistic, the SU could counter with a deterrent of their own aimed right at the heart of Soviet power.

In case 2, I think US influence would be against Iceland being invited to join; the Americans would much prefer to hold the strategic base in fief and pull out all stops against any Icelander sentiment to join, using both carrots and sticks quite liberally to make sure Iceland stands aside. Such a confrontation might even lead to American fostering Greenland breaking away from Denmark and the Union, perhaps to be annexed to Iceland. I assume not; the USA in this era anyway is not going to be quite that highhanded, not against Western Europeans anyway--though a manipulated plebiscite would not be out of bounds CIA manipulations have practiced before!

In case 1 on the other hand, if Washington (probably under Harry Truman's administration if we don't butterfly the US domestic situation much) is confident the Union is a good and loyal partner, and the Scandinavian sentiment is for NATO membership as a major charter power, American influence might indeed push Iceland into the Union despite a bit of reluctance among some Icelanders! This would be contingent on assurances that US basing rights in Iceland would suffer no impediment. Iceland might be seen by Americans as a stabilizing conservative influence on the Scandinavian socialist kingdoms actually.

As a NATO ally, Scandinavian industry would be under some pressure to harmonize with Yankee interests, and given the abject way British procurement for instance often caved in to American urging, we might think maybe SAAB for instance might be driven right under. Against that however, the union of all three kingdoms plus in a pro-NATO scenario Iceland, would give the Union as a whole leverage and SAAB would have its name changed and its operations somewhat dispersed into Denmark and Norway as a single pan-Union state-backed major player in global aviation. I have utmost respect for the cleverness and professionalism of SAAB's OTL fighter aircraft designs in particular, and think that broadening the net to include Danish and Norwegian and even the occasional Icelandic designer will only improve it further. Note that the aircraft the Swedes made OTL were optimized for Swedish concepts of defense, which might change with Scandinavia being part of a much larger coordinated war plan. But these aircraft have virtues that conceivably could displace American, British and French designs in some fields--notably front line interceptor.

On the naval front, Swedish and Danish shipyards, and with Union aid, Norwegian, could produce quite competitive small craft, even air-independent small range submarine designs; large capital ships should probably be purchased from British or American yards, if indeed the Union sees any purpose in operating any such vanity projects at all.

On land, of course Scandinavia's first line of defense is to stop Soviet allied forces from conquering northwest Germany. In addition, with OTL post-WWII boundaries anyway (no telling how ATL WWII with Sweden a combatant might change this) Norway borders directly on the Soviet Union, and south of that border lies a longer one with Finland the Soviets could seize. Thus, army strategy is split between fortifying the far north to make it tough for the Red Army to move there, versus putting in a fair share into the common pool of NATO land defenses in Germany, or anyway planning to come in from Danish bases as reinforcements-these versus reliance on deterrence.

Getting Finland into the Union, which I believe the author does intend, probably must wait on a major drop in Soviet threat levels. Given OTL situations, Finland was usefully neutralized, being in effect a tripwire for either side--if the Reds cannot suddenly and rapidly surge out of Finland (and the only place where they border anyone on land is again the far north of Norway and Sweden) neither can Western forces suddenly teleport themselves to mass on the Soviet border with Finland overnight! The Union acquiring Finland must then either wait for the Russians to be in a weak position, or for Moscow to be very conciliatory, and in the latter case I imagine they would stipulate that Finland remain largely disarmed. As a Union member, the Finns are more secure than ever from Soviet interventions, but again it is reasonable for defenses based in Finland to be light, provided anyway Russian forces on the same border are also verifiably light.

The same principles could apply to the three Baltic republics joining later--obviously they have to secede from or be let go by the Soviet Union. Again though, in return for the Russians backing out of their high handed rule there, an agreement that no large forces are to be based there, whether domestic republican or Union. A rotating small force sufficient to protect the capitals long enough for evacuation of diplomats supporting an inspector corps authorized to look into Russian defenses just within say 100 miles of the border, with Russian inspectors similarly roaming Finland and the Baltics, could be of great value both to the Union and to Russia.

-------
So given the premises you've released thus far, here is my concept of where I think you might be going with this:

1) as noted, the SU forms from Scandinavian nations that all suffered the trauma of either German invasion or anyway massive transformation during WWII (Iceland that is). I think in the circumstances they'd veer, by 1949 anyway, to a pro-US and thus NATO allegiance, and Swedish misgivings about that are both mollified and absorbed into the larger Union--so SU is a charter NATO power, and the union as a whole promotes an all union version of SAAB and shipyards in all three mainland kingdoms, and perhaps an ATL tank industry--OTL various Scandinavian gun works are world class as is, they are maintained and augmented as needed here.

2) I guess my notions of a collegial State Council of monarchs and one or more republic Presidents gives way to the unitary Union President. I wonder if you would give consideration to my suggestion of a 7 year term (with or without formal rules against reelection, I lean toward leaving it open) and my wacky idea of nations having accumulating vote multipliers the longer they go without electing a President from their own nation. Also, there ought to be a State Council if only formally "under" the President, but not subject to his discretion.

3) I have no idea what scale you think the Ting should be at. I chose 150 as the ballpark of constituency seats because I figured with any approach to party-list proportionality, especially one affected by German MMP ideas, it would be larger--but even expanded by a hundred or more make up party list member this is still not larger, or not much larger, than the Swedish lower house. Norway and Denmark both had around 150 members in these days, and Iceland far fewer. So--considering that the Union body has different mandates and purviews than the individual kingdoms/republic, each of which I assume retain a very large degree of power, the upshot is something like 2-4 times as many people per representative in the Ting, which seems reasonable. It shouldn't be a lot smaller than 200 members, or Iceland would have no reasonable claim (in 1950, or in the 1990s assuming they don't join until the Cold War is over) for even one representative--they could have one anyway, as I presume devolved separately represented Faeroes or Greenland would. But making it a lot smaller would make it pretty rough and make the representatives pretty distant from their constituencies. (Note I am regarding make up members as having "constituencies" too, more on that in a moment, as brief as I can make it). With 11 3 member seats for Norway and 15 for Denmark and 24 for Sweden, we could pare it down to say a 50 member Senate in effect, with Norway getting four, Denmark five and Sweden 8, plus a comparable number of level up members, but I think that is clearly too small. Whereas, if we make the Ting bigger, not only does the body get so large that business there is impersonal and on an oppressive mass scale, but also representation gets so small that citizens of the Union might prefer to bypass their national governments and do everything in the Ting--which would not be a terrible thing to my mind, but the three kingdoms are each distinct enough I think there would be resistance to that in the population, and fear of the Union becoming in effect Greater Sweden. I think a baseline of say 153 constituency seats, with make up seats fluctuating perhaps enough to bring it nearer 300, is a reasonable size.

On that fluctuation--as noted, if they are paying attention to the Federal Republic of Germany's formation, they surely note Multi-Member Proportional seating being tried out, and I propose they adopt a form of it, being already accustomed to party-list proportional. But the fixed model of make up seats in fixed number has to be fiddled with in real life quite a lot, because under German style MMP rules, some parties will win more constituency seats then their party share warrants. To bring it into proportion, "overhang" correcting seats often have to be added, for the other parties shortchanged to come into proportion. Why not then, just rely on the overhang mechanism entirely, and let the number of extra seats vary as needed to produce proportion? That means one does not know in advance if the Ting is going to be the theoretical minimum of 153 seats, versus being doubled in size to 300 or more (mechanisms can easily guarantee it stays an odd number, if anyone thinks that is important) versus something intermediate? Experience however will yield a typical size that emerges. I think the uncertainty as to Ting size session to session can be a very good thing; it means political rigging is hard to guarantee, and that all party candidates have no better strategy as individuals or as partisans than to seek as many first-preference votes as they can get, giving voters strong leverage on their candidates to pay close attention to their concerns.

Often in these discussions I find people stumbling on the "party list" issue. In a traditional national proportional representation system, each party proposes a "list" of the handpicked candidates they will seat up to the total size of the body, and then each one gets a share based on party vote, and the voters are stuck with whatever candidates the party listed first. Many PR nations have tried various ways to vary this, by giving voters votes in which candidates make up the list for instance, either in party primaries or during the general election.

But I say--in a pure FPTP or STV type election, the party already has a "list," which is the roster of candidates for constituency seats each party runs. Why do we need a separate list for an MMP type system? Instead, we can first have candidates elected in the constituency districts as FPTP or STV--then, taking the party affiliation of those all voters voted for in those races (first preference, in my proposal involving STV) to define the party proportionality, we determine how many make up candidates the shortchanged parties get...and instead turning to the party to have a list of people who did not run for the general constituency election, we simply strike off all the candidates each party ran that have already won a seat, and turn to looking at how many votes the also-rans of each district got. For each party we take the top vote winners, who are presumably the most popular and representative of the voters among those who did not win, and elect them as well. The upshot is that the districts get surplus representatives, and there is no guarantee they are in proportion--some districts don't get any make up members elected, others get several. But on the basis of one person, one vote, the representation is faithful. The districts that get more reps would be those that either had higher turnouts than average (not likely to be a big factor in Union elections here, though this provides an automatic disincentive to voter suppression--authorities that discourage potential voters from voting will find the districts they influence in this way to have weaker than average representation!) or in districts where the competition was especially fierce and votes more evenly divided--and these are precisely the districts that need more diverse representation. Districts that are very solid behind one party or another might pick up some spare reps too, depending on the rules.

So, in a system like that, all candidates elected all stood for general election in a home district, there aren't two different kinds of representatives elected. All of them have constituencies, each came from some particular district. Each is dependent on gaining support in a district and all are candidates who earned a substantial number of votes personally.

If there is interest here or elsewhere I hope to show what I mean concretely. As noted I have finished with a model of Sweden (where the constituencies have some relationship, often identical in fact, to historic Swedish constituency votes in 1948) and Denmark, and now I am about to tackle Norway--after that Iceland's single 3 member constituency is likely to be a snap, though I still have to consider how different parties in different nations might ally with one another on the Union scale. Certainly some of them should, and others that are very peculiar can stand alone--either way their voters get their fair share of seats, or pretty near!
 
Assuming WW2 goes like OTL, then Finland will likely stay out of the Scandinavian union due to it's treaty with the Soviet Union. Unless the Soviets feel that Finnish membership is in their own interest or they begrudingly accept Finnish membership in the Scandinavian union. Atleast they could tell themselfes, Finland is not part of Nato. Depending on how much integration there is between the member countries, it may be difficult for newcomers like Finland to join later. That is is Finland does not join during the early phase. Should Finland join then they would need to find a settlement on various issues, such as industry, agriculture, military spending, etc. Actually it may be more likely for Finland not to join the Scandinavian Union, but rather to form a close special partnership. Also if Finland does not join, then the Baltic states will not join either. Even if Finland joins, Baltic membership is not guaranteed. Though a strong partnership between Scandinavia and the Baltic states is likely in either case.
 
The following is a transcript of a youtube video by youtuber Jens Sabroe (a J.J Mccollough-esque youtube channel in this alternate universe)
Will the Scandinavian languages be more similar than in OTL? The different language council might cooperate more, aswell as share a more similar approach, maybe there will be more linguistic purism. Less likely we may see the development of a unified Scandinavian language based on Norwegian, Swedish and Danish.
 
Will the armed forces of the member countries be merged?

Scandinavia's population is about 2½ time larger than Sweden's and they have similar per capita GNPs.

If the Scandinavian armed forces are based on Sweden's there would be considerable economies of scale because a lot of her military equipment was designed and built in Sweden.

About 450 Lansens, 600 Drakens, 330 Vigens and 200 Gripens were built for the Svenska Flygvapnet IOTL. That would work out as about 1,125 Lansens, 1,500 Drakens, 825 Viggens and 500 Gripens if the Scandinavian Air Force was 2½ time's larger than Sweden's. The R&D costs would have been exactly the same and the manufacturing costs might be lower through economies of scale.

The 330-odd Viggens included 149 JA37 which equipped 9 out of 12 fighter squadrons and 180 other variants (AJ, SF, SH and Sk 37). The 3 remaining fighter squadrons were equipped with the J35F Draken and according to Wikipaedia 54 J35Fs were upgraded to J35J standard in the late 1980s.

ITTL that would translate into 375 JA 37s to equip 22½ of Scandinavia's 30 fighter squadrons and 450 other variants for a total of 825. The 7½ remaining fighter squadrons would be equipped with J35F Drakens and 135 would be upgraded to J35J standard in the late 1980s.

800 Viggens were planned for Sweden IOTL, which was cut back to about 380 including 200 JA37 to equip 12 fighter squadrons and then cut back to 329 including 149 JA37 to equip 9 squadrons.

All other things being equal 2,000 Viggens would be planned for Scandinavia ITTL, which would be cut back to 950 including 500 JA37 to equip 30 fighter squadrons and then to 825 including 375 JA37 to equip 22½ squadrons.

However, all other things were not equal because the R&D cost was exactly the same and the unit cost might be less. These savings aren't enough to make 2,000 Viggens affordable, but it aught to make 950 affordable. That would avoid the need to upgrade 135 Drakkens to J35J standard because there would be enough JA37 Viggens to equip all 30 fighter squadrons.

300 Gripens were planned IOTL, but it was cut back to 204 because the Cold War ended. ITTL the initial requirement would be for 750 aircraft, but the R&D cost would be exactly the same and the production cost may be less so the original target of 750 aircraft might be affordable in spite of the post Cold War spending cuts.

I know less about the Swedish Army's equipment. However, my copy of Jane's Main Battle Tanks published in 1986 says that it had 350 British built Centurions and 300 S-tanks. That would work out as 825 Centurions and 750 S-tanks with all or at least a large percentage of the Centurions built under licence in Sweden.
 
Last edited:

Devvy

Donor
If it's a post-WW2 scenario for this union, I can't realistically see a merging of armed forces, but a very tight shared command (NATO style++) is more likely. Aside from anything else, you'd end up with an awkward constitutional practise, where de facto (even if not de jure) the reigning Kings are supposed to be the heads of the military. Also, I just can't see DK/SE/NO being happy to hand over national defence to a new federal body. Defence is the most fundamental role of a state.

In order to get Iceland to sign up, you'll need to balance federal/provincial powers though; no way will they sign up to anything which implies sacrificing control of sea/fishing at the very least, considering the dependence of the Icelandic economy on that sector. Likewise on energy, environmental and industrial powers considering the requirement for Iceland to be able to modernise it's economy and diversify at least slightly from fishing.
 
If it's a post-WW2 scenario for this union, I can't realistically see a merging of armed forces, but a very tight shared command (NATO style++) is more likely.
Defence is the most fundamental role of a state.
Only the author can rule on these questions, but frankly I think by far the strongest reason to consider having any Union, and certainly one that has elaborations like a population-proportional popular legislature to govern the Union, and a Union President, would of course precisely be to bulk up Scandinavia as a player in world affairs, and very much exactly to get a strong collective defense.

Thus, defense as basis of nationhood is a two edged sword. In an earlier draft of a response to your remarks here, I rather dialectically came to the tentative conclusion that indeed on paper, the constituent nations of the Union should indeed have military force apportioned formally to them, under the separate sovereignty of their various states. But my major consideration was not so much formal arguments about sovereignty but rather linguistic. I do not know to what degree Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are mutually intelligible to the respective peoples of each nation in practice, but certainly the languages are distinct and any Danish soldier or sailor trying to correctly understand orders in Swedish or Norwegian must be pretty well trained to remember to take note of the words that are different. I favored the idea of a single unified set of armed forces for the whole Union, but then the question of language becomes more pointed. The logical common language of reference should be Swedish I think, especially if Finland ever joining is in the cards--native Suomi speakers mostly understand Swedish, or a dialect of it, pretty well I think, whereas Suomi is a very different language, not even Indo-European--Finns and Estonians would understand each other pretty well I think, but no one else would unless they studied and trained in the common Suomi roots, and dialect differences might still trip up someone indifferently familiar with either. Well, I think the Danes and Norwegians, who put together outnumber the Swedes a bit, would resent having to use Swedish exclusively. Having separate forces for each nation means that each force uses mainly the common language of their kingdom or republic, and then perhaps getting everyone at least passably competent in formalized military command Swedish might be easier to swallow.

So I guess I come around to your concept of several separate parallel commands, but in practice the point of having a Union is to maximize effectiveness by common policy, doctrine and equipment. The coordination between the national forces must be quite tight, and de facto the combined forces will operate as one. Above the supreme commands of each force for each nation, must be a Union supreme command, which on paper is a federal alliance, but in operational practice is unified. Rank insignia must be clear at a glance, command in serious operations must seamlessly leap across national lines. The separation then is largely symbolic, and boils down in operations to forces recruited from different nations generally serving together and largely separate from other Union national forces.

But never entirely! Let's visualize the situation should we achieve what I think is maximal extension and devolution of component nations. Supposing Greenland and the Faeroes are formally separated from Denmark and tiny Union republics in their own right, Iceland joined initially or sometime during the Cold War anyway, and after some major collapse of the Soviet hegemony over east Europe (which might not involve the collapse of the Soviet Communist party rule and the continued existence of a version of the USSR--I'll just call it Russia though to distinguish from the Cold War USSR, whether it still contains Ukraine, the central Asian republics, the Caucasian ones and so on or not) Russia will still, in any scenario that does not involve a major nuclear exchange, remain a very strong power at least in northern European theaters. Conciliating them, especially if they make concessions such as letting the Baltic Republics go (as a continuing Soviet Union ought to, provided they can be satisfied as to security--the Baltic peoples deeply resented Soviet Russian rule) is going to be important. Let's say we have all four Baltic coastal states joining as separate Union nations, so the count of total nations, big and tiny (in population/wealth terms) comes to ten. We have Greenland, Iceland, Faeroes, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia. In a post-Cold War situation, what is a rational deployment of forces?

Russia remains an enigma--potentially able to turn into a powerful aggressor again, the Union must be preoccupied with plans to defend all territories against Russian expansionism. The four Baltic coastal eastern republics are on the front line; in a world disregarding deterrence and diplomacy and relying on force alone, these should be armed to the hilt. But even massive fortification of these four nations cannot be a guarantee against Russian conquest; Russia is just plain big, and hard to defeat due to its great strategic depth (even lacking the entire southern tier of Soviet Republics)! The key to defense of the vulnerable Baltic east is a bit paradoxically, diplomacy and deterrence. The Russians even in general collapse are going to be potentially strong enough to assert major security concerns and refuse to loosen their effective grip of terror on the east Baltics unless they are satisfied their security from that direction is otherwise assured. The way to otherwise assure it is to continue the Cold War de facto stalemate in Finland. Finland, as a condition of not being absorbed into the Soviet system wholesale, agreed tacitly to be inoffensive, to maintain only a small military and avoid provoking the Bear. Now just in joining the Union they are being more assertive--but if the entire Russian border, including perhaps the northeastern province of Norway, are largely demilitarized, and if the Western powers have enough leverage to make this mutual as it was not in the Cold War, and assert the right of inspectors to verify low levels of Russian concentration of force at some depth beyond the Baltic republic borders too, so we have Russian inspectors roaming around the four former Soviet sphere of interest republics verifying limited presence of force there, and Union inspectors roaming a comparable depth of the Russian border zone also confirming low concentrations of Russian force there, we have a stabilized situation. Either side can violate the agreement and rush forces in from their respective "rears" but if they try it, the inspectors will sound the alarm--arresting, still worse killing, the inspectors would be an act of war in itself. Such a reckless move would quite likely trigger general Armageddon; that's deterrence.

So the four Baltic nations, on paper, maintain their own uniformed forces in the Union--but these are tiny. However, each republic pays into the general Union defense budget to a comparable degree, based on per capita national wealth average, to what the unrestricted six nations pay, in combined national and Union payments, and citizens of the four Baltic nations may volunteer to serve under one of the other six national banners--this means Baltic people must learn one of the western Nordic languages of course--since everyone in any uniform in the Union is under some pressure to speak Swedish to a fair degree for command purposes, a lot of them would go to the Swedish forces, which are their nearest destination anyway, and the logical base for reserve forces to rush into Finland and the southern small republics in an emergency. But others might choose to join Danish, Norwegian, or in theory one of the Atlantic small national forces instead. They still have to learn Swedish, and now Danish or one of the Atlantic national languages too. In theory each of these Baltic expatriate volunteers is in the service of whatever crown or Republic they enlist with, but any national force hosting lots of Lithuanians or Latvians is going to form corps to put most of them in, rotating individuals to national dominated units for general cross-national familiarization and training in specific operations, then back to their de facto exile forces, where they are understood to be ready reserves to rush into their homelands. In case of deteriorating relations with Russia, where the Russians start fortifying their borderlands and perhaps expel the inspectors, but the Union and Russia avoid starting open war, the nominal Baltic republic forces can be built up overnight, as their respective "emigre" volunteers come home in force to be reorganized into formally local units on the front line. Whether they get formally disbanded and largely sent back west depends on how diplomacy proceeds with the Russians after that. Hopefully this situation never arises, as it would be one hair trigger away from general interbloc nuclear war.

To the west, Sweden is the logical base for sea and air power over the Baltic, until we come to Danish waters anyway, and being in close confederal cooperation, in fact the Danish and Swedish naval units and air units will interpenetrate each others' formal waters and air space quite freely, with Union command overseeing both. These naval and air forces will have lots of Baltic service members, in the air, at sea, in ports and at airfields, each under one crown or the other. The ships and bases will in fact be multilingual. The token, limited complement and kit forces in the eastern republics will have logistical capabilities far outstripping the local force in being, in pointed readiness to suddenly host a whole lot of "expeditionary" forces each of which by amazing coincidence happen to include majorities of locals, and formally transferring their allegiance to their home republic forces will be a major diplomatic signal of big trouble for Russia.

Generally, there would be no reason for Swedish naval or air units to operate in the Atlantic, but a portion will be exchanged with the Norwegian (and tiny token Icelandic and still more desultory Faeroe and Greenland nominal forces) for familiarization and general proficiency. The Danes are poised between Baltic and Atlantic and thus share a portion of both routinely. Norway takes major point in the Atlantic, especially north of the Skagerrak outlet, but again they will trade some task forces with Swedes and Danes, swapping their units into the Baltic again for general familiarization and practice in specialized skills. The three tiny Atlantic island republics will have really tiny forces on paper, and these mostly specialized for utility "coast guard" type duties--revenue control and general policing, and search and rescue--but will be subsidized by the Union to have some token major units, which operate effectively under Norwegian dominated command on Union defense duties.

On land, the three major kingdoms will maintain armies which, reinforced by Baltic citizen volunteers rotating between their own linguistic units and kingdom ones, in combination are geared to give the Baltic borders a strong and tenacious defense. The Finnish republican force is smaller per capita than the Baltics, because all the western kingdoms, including token volunteers from the Atlantic islands, rotate in small units for training and familiarization--a lot more Finns are armed and in uniform than those formally mustered into the Finnish Army, because a large number are there temporarily on a rotating basis in other uniforms. These put together with the actual Swedes, Danes, Norwegian (and handfuls of Atlantic island troops) who are present in Finland at any one time count toward the treaty cap on armed presence--but arms, in caches where the Russian inspectors are guaranteed to be able to watch but unable to interfere, are also stocked in place beyond routine training and standby presence, and behold, lots of Finns have volunteered in Finnish or western kingdom uniforms, served a stint, and are now enrolled as Finnish reserves. The Russians really should think twice about starting anything!

Keeping such reserves in the southern Baltics is more provocative to Russia, so these republics are more exposed, except that they do maintain forward air bases far beyond their nominal requirements. The main defense of the Baltics is their veteran reserves plus the general tripwire deterrence--Russian forces can easily conquer the Baltics, but they are sure to then be in general war with all the Union, under pressure on the entire Finnish-Norwegian frontier, Russian shipping being ruthlessly hunted by the cooperating Union navies.

Should the Union have a nuclear deterrent of its own? I think yes, they surely would if the Union did not join NATO, and possibly no, they might not if they did join NATO in its formation or soon after--delaying this as late as 1960 probably means the Union joins the nuclear club. Nuclear weapons would break down into strategic forces, which would be a mix of land based IRBMs and submarine launched missiles--even if making actual nuclear powered boomers is beyond the Union's paygrade, OTL the Swedes have developed remarkably good air independent subs using chemical fuel, and that is good for short range hiding small subs in the Baltic, and perhaps for Norwegian ones operating within a few hundred miles of the Norwegian/Union coast in the north Atlantic and Arctic. Perhaps the Union would decide not to develop "tactical" nukes, and if they did, their most logical applications are air interceptor AAMs (like the USAF Genie missile) and submarine torpedoes--using "tactical" nukes on the battlefield is lighting the match for general nuclear exchange after all. Certainly strategic nuke forces--missile bases and boomer subs--should not be separate kingdom units, formally--de facto each base and vessel will have some dominant language and practical closer affiliation to some nation or other, but legally speaking strategic use of nukes should be under strong central Union command, and obviously a last resort.

If they join NATO early, the Union will probably be dissuaded from developing Union nuclear weapon capability, but perhaps might be encouraged to go beyond chemical AIP to have Union nuclear subs, and if the Union is persuaded to join long range expeditions, under NATO, or in other multilateral alliances such as SEATO, or as UN mandate forces, perhaps even nuclear powered surface vessels--this would involve major subsidies as well as strategic security agreements and permissions from Uncle Sam. The Union does not require nuclear attack subs in the Baltic, but might want some in the Atlantic off Norway.

All nations except the eastern four maintain air forces comparable in per capita wealth, and the latter of course contribute lump sum funds and a flow of volunteers seconded to the western six nations (practically speaking, four, with Iceland getting very few) for training, integrated operations, and then placement in emigre squadrons within each kingdom/republic air force. Air forces are very mobile, provided common infrastructure and equipment is agreed to, and would be the first to be rushed into the Baltics should a crisis with Russia start blowing up.

In this framework then, there generally are no "Union" forces, except possibly for strategic nuclear forces, and I think it would be diplomatically astute to make any Union inspectors in Russia Union formally. Otherwise all uniformed personnel of all forces are under one national flag or another. But they mix up their training and practice operations and any UN or other alliance deployments a lot, and their weapons and doctrines and logistical chains are all closely coordinated by Union command. Everyone speaks a bit of Swedish, and enlisted persons and officers with serious career aspirations learn it well, though within their routine national force operations they usually speak the national language or in case of dealing with emigre Baltic units, their language.

Will the armed forces of the member countries be merged?
Initially I thought, sure, of course, but upon reflection, as in my answer to Devvy above, I guess not--on paper, they remain separate and usually operating in respective national languages. The formal separation makes swallowing Swedish as the de facto common command language less difficult for the non-Swedes.

In practice, as noted, it is necessary for the "separate" national forces to think and plan and practice in close cooperation with the others.
Scandinavia's population is about 2½ time larger than Sweden's and they have similar per capita GNPs.

If the Scandinavian armed forces are based on Sweden's there would be a considerable economies of scale because a lot of her military equipment was designed and built in Sweden.
Again the question of NATO involvement comes into play.

You are doing a fine job of estimating what could be the force levels for the three kingdoms if they adopt collectively basically a Greater Sweden policy of formal neutrality that is in fact armed strongly against the Soviets, and pragmatically in informal alliance with NATO. Refusing to enter NATO gives them maximum ability to see to it the pork barrel benefits of military buildup stay in the Union and maximally benefit Scandinavian industry and interests--the flip side is, joining with NATO might be seen to achieve higher security and possible access to US aid. And I think that given the high quality of Scandinavian designs OTL, especially postwar Swedish aircraft (by SAAB), the Union could swing NATO general procurement of some of their systems stretching the market for some systems a lot further--but at the cost of losing out in competition and having to adopt some foreign made systems, American, British, French or eventually perhaps German or Italian. Actually OTL the Swedes have procured some of their kit from various other European nations, so having to do some as NATO members is actually not that big a shift.

I think it is six of one half a dozen of the other overall, given Scandinavia's collective bargaining power, particularly if Iceland is in the Union too. Aggressive American firms will be somewhat reined in by State Department and DoD interests who want to keep the Scandinavians sweet on US basing in Iceland and Greenland and forward presence in Scandinavia itself. And the Union might be aided in achieving some ATL proficiencies such as naval nuclear power plants, and my respect for their engineering is such I daresay they might offer up an improved design that they can license back to American and other Western power firms.
Assuming WW2 goes like OTL, then Finland will likely stay out of the Scandinavian union due to it's treaty with the Soviet Union.
It isn't the paper treaty so much as the "correlation of forces" as Leninist dogma puts it. Russia is big, Finland is small, and when Red Army forces were rolling back the Axis ones toward Finland again, the Finns were in a hell of a position, without the western Allies having a strong case to rein in the Bear since Finland had legally speaking joined the Axis and helped attack the USSR. Later as the Cold War heated up, Western interests would like to "rescue" Finland from Soviet power, but doing so too overtly would likely trigger an unwanted WWIII; the OTL solution was not a terrible one for the Finns, nor bad for Russians or Westerners.

It is these realities, whether written down on paper or not, that would prevent any serious proposal to add Finland to the Union any time between the later '40s and the eventual collapse of Soviet power, probably around the late '80s-mid'90s as OTL. Conceivably, if the SU stays out of NATO and then adopts a much more Soviet friendly foreign policy than seems likely to me, they might get some kind of neutralized Finland deal out of the Soviets, but even if the Soviet regime agrees to mutual inspection on paper, it would be awfully hard to get compliance; the Union would have a bleeding wound they cannot bandage in Finland being basically held hostage.

Nor is it obvious that even if we have a collapse as OTL, that Russia will relent in objections to any Baltic republic joining. I optimistically proposed they might, to explore what a Finland within the Union might look like. I am not saying it is highly likely to be allowed though.
Will the Scandinavian languages be more similar than in OTL?
I think that to get the Union, the nationalistic preferences of the various nations would have to be catered to and reassured. Far from seeking to form a common Union language officially, the constitution will affirm that separate national languages are a national right, and each nation will maintain separate formal standards quite jealously.

All that is as far as official policy goes! But languages are not mere tools of central elites; they form and evolve dialectically, and grassroots popular input governs their evolution very strongly.

In practice, achieving a Union is toward certain ends. One of them is a strong collective defense. I have already sketched out how I think that might work, and noted that for various practical reasons, Swedish seems likely to be adopted as the standard form of command, in all cases where units of different nationality are communicating with each other. Thus all of Scandinavia's service members will be trained in Swedish to some degree.

Meanwhile, on many levels, the Union ought to encourage various kinds of intercourse between citizens on many levels. Corporations that were based in one nation or the other OTL will be encouraged to branch out with offices and plants and stores and so forth in the other nations, so we'd have managers and workforce cadres shuttling back and forth.

Media--radio, eventually TV--seem likely to remain in national control, but as consumers expressing effective demand, a certain cosmopolitan mentality will want productions of other member nations to air in their "markets." Sweden is nearly half the population of a three kingdom Union, and Iceland hardly makes a difference in this. But Copenhagen I believe would have a certain cultural appeal to Swedish audiences too, and some Swedes and Danes might be much taken with stories set in Norway.

I expect mass education to be advanced by the Union, with more opportunity for young Union citizens to go to some university or another, or to other forms of higher education. Opportunity might beckon for the young of one nation to relocate to another.

A pan-Scandinavian culture thus seems likely to rise, in which each nation, and indeed regions within nations, retain some sharp distinctiveness, but also shared commonality. This will tend to foster a sort of pidgin-creole "Skandish" commonly intelligible to many, with hip and trendy adoption of other language terms and grammar just for the style of it or forming hip in-group jargons to confuse the squares. This is after all the 1950s and '60s coming--especially if SU is in NATO and we have US bases here and there, there will be an invasion of rock and roll! Presumably ABBA had some such foundations OTL, we might, with NATO membership, have many such Scandinavian groups, and one that is popular in one nation seems likely to be wanted to tour the others.

For many reasons then, I expect the overall trend to be that on paper, in formal education, legal documents, and among certain cultural chauvinists, the several languages will remain sharply defined as separate, especially by any fussy official arbiters of proper language...but meanwhile a general Skandish lingua franca mixing and matching both diverse Scandinavian locutions and indiscriminately borrowing English (both Yankee and British) and to some extent French and German and who knows, maybe Russian (just to annoy the squares, you know, man?) and God knows what else. The more successful the Union is, the more this general argot seems likely to evolve.
In order to get Iceland to sign up, you'll need to balance federal/provincial powers though; no way will they sign up to anything which implies sacrificing control of sea/fishing at the very least, considering the dependence of the Icelandic economy on that sector. Likewise on energy, environmental and industrial powers considering the requirement for Iceland to be able to modernise it's economy and diversify at least slightly from fishing.
Well, certainly with fair apportionment by population, Iceland will be ludicrously weak in the Ting, having the smallest token of representation there. But against that, Icelanders will have more influence among fellow Scandinavians than they would in moving American decisionmakers with their own high handed notions; if Iceland does not join, they are pretty much on their own dealing with the Yankees. Also, a negotiated quid pro quo for joining and thus giving the Union far flung power to link up to their distant but weakly held holding in Greenland, would be ample pork in Union funding; small diversions from the three kingdoms will add up to handsome sums per Icelander capita!

Meanwhile the constitutional arrangement involves a conference of national governments as well as the collective popular vote Ting, and I think a council of heads of state (kings, and the Icelander President) is needed too. With these, Iceland can be quite sure to have its peculiar interests heard, noted and factored into consensus policies. Icelanders and Norwegians probably share similar interests in fishing for instance. Instead of dragging the Union into a head to head confrontation with the UK as OTL, perhaps the heavier weight of the entire Union will move the British to negotiate more reasonably and quietly, and the Union can get various conflicts ironed out to mutual benefit.

If Iceland wants to modernize--joining the Union is the best way to do it by far. Iceland is a prestige and strategic holding as far as the three kingdoms, especially Danes, see it--in return for that, they can reasonably expect a lot of money to be spent on Iceland, building up her ports, basing substantial Union (that is, nominally Norwegian and visiting Swedish and Danish flagged warships, but also a subsidized token Icelandic bunch of capital ships and small warcraft over and above Iceland's reasonable small coast guard fleet) fleet elements and air force assets based there, subsidized support for the Icelandic educational system elevating its best schools to world class university level. With NATO membership of the Union they also get the American and other member service bases there too.

I don't see any downside to Iceland joining. I can see that Iceland's politics and culture are out of step, that they'd worry about being de facto reabsorbed under Danish control again, as possible points needing negotiation.

The main variable about Iceland joining is US attitude. If the Union seems liable to stand aloof from NATO, Yankee policy makers will fear losing control of the Atlantic sea lanes and logistic problems reinforcing West Europe, and hang on to Iceland. Legally we can't do that of course, but I suppose there would be lots of informal channels to pressure and beguile Icelander voters and officials to resist the Union on whatever pretexts seem best to them. But if the Union is going to join NATO, integrating Iceland into a larger NATO partner, with the prior understanding that the USA shall be able to count on Iceland as a logistic and strategic base as well as added aid from the Union in the North Atlantic sea control mission, then Uncle Sam will instead want to influence the Icelanders to favor the Union.

Perhaps Yankee wishes will not be decisive, but I think it is fair to say that in the later 1940s, the USA had a lot of moral capital and was respected as a natural leader of the Western anti-Soviet alliance, and so I don't see it so much as strongarming, as a matter of which way the wind blows.

Union policy on NATO then is decisive here as in so many other issues.

FWIW I think the Scandinavian Union would in fact join NATO as a charter member.
 
Greater Sweden might not be a good model for the Scandinavian armed forces because it is a Baltic country and Scandinavia had an Atlantic coast to defend too. That (and the amount of time it takes me to write posts) made me refrain from working out a Scandinavian Army and Navy based on Greater Sweden.

Therefore, Greater Denmark might be a better model because that country his the only Scandinavian country to have a Baltic coast and an Atlantic coast (strictly speaking a North Sea coast). Denmark has a population that was about one fifth the size of Scandinavia's so Scandinavian armed forces based on Greater Denmark would be five times the size of Denmark but with few of the economies of scale that Greater Sweden would enjoy because a smaller proportion of its equipment was designed and built in Denmark.

The language problem could be overcome up to the battalion or even the regimental level by having one language per unit and then the chosen single language from the brigade or divisional level upwards. AIUI the various NATO commands learned to coped with many languages so it aught to be easier for the Scandinavians to cope with five. All the Scandinavians I've met speak English better than most British people and it's already "the language of the air" so perhaps that could be the "language of command" for the armed forces.

Or flippantly Latin was the official language of the Holy Roman Empire AIUI and if I remember the anecdote properly the waiters in Budapest used to speak it perfectly. Could the official language of Scandinavia be Old Norse? Hebrew came back from the dead and in the British Isles there have been revivals of the Celtic languages, including Cornish. Or how about Esperanto?
 
The language question, the language have a high degree of mutual intelligibility, there’s dialect of Danish which is harder to understand for me than Swedish and we see the same in all the countries. Denmark because of its smaller size have the least divergent dialects and Norway the most divergent, Swedish dialects in Scania is closer to Danish than to standard Swedish. In general understanding of the different languages depend on experiences, place a bunch of young Norwegians, Danes and Swedes together in a boot camp and in less than month they will understand each other languages perfectly. We will likely also see a convergent of vocabulary between the different languages with the words which differ between languages. We’re unlikely to see one written standard grow to dominance, we will either see all three language being co-official or we will see that plus a fourth written standard being as compromise written language, this will be taught together with the national written standardizations in the different countries, and will likely be taught solely in the capital region.

Instead of having a president, I would suggest that official the head of the different states are co-head of state, while the the speaker of parliament serve as head of state when a single individual need to represent the union.

Military Sweden will pretty much produce most of the the equipment the state use, tanks, truck and airplanes will be produced in Sweden, while the other states just produce light equipment and naval vessels. Sweden is the industrial power house of the Nordics, the only areas where heavy industry in the other states could compete with the Swedes was in shipyards. Of course some industry will spread and move. Gothenburg will likely increase significant in industrial production, Scania-Zealand will likely grow into one industrial region, which will be the center of the chemical industry. But the heavy industry will likely still be centered on the Swedish east coast as the region have easy access to raw material and cheap energy.
 
Greater Sweden might not be a good model for the Scandinavian armed forces because it is a Baltic country and Scandinavia had an Atlantic coast to defend too. That (and the amount of time it takes me to write posts) made me refrain from working out a Scandinavian Army and Navy based on Greater Sweden.

Therefore, Greater Denmark might be a better model because that country his the only Scandinavian country to have a Baltic coast and an Atlantic coast (strictly speaking a North Sea coast). Denmark has a population that was about one fifth the size of Scandinavia's so Scandinavian armed forces based on Greater Denmark would be five times the size of Denmark but with few of the economies of scale that Greater Sweden would enjoy because a smaller proportion of its equipment was designed and built in Denmark.

I don’t think Danish military is a good model for the Nordic military. Denmark while a high growth country had permanent BOP deficit after WWII and geography which disfavored mechanical combat. So Denmark had a focus on infantry, artillery, fortification, navy and air force under the Cold War. With Swedish industry and a geography favoring mechanical warfare much more, the military doctrine of the Scandinavian Union will be very different from the Danish ones (which was pretty much sink the Polish fleet before they could land troops and pray Moscow didn’t nuke us).
 
I don’t think Danish military is a good model for the Nordic military. Denmark while a high growth country had permanent BOP deficit after WWII and geography which disfavoured mechanical combat. So Denmark had a focus on infantry, artillery, fortification, navy and air force under the Cold War. With Swedish industry and a geography favouring mechanical warfare much more, the military doctrine of the Scandinavian Union will be very different from the Danish ones (which was pretty much sink the Polish fleet before they could land troops and pray Moscow didn’t nuke us).
Points taken.

Sweden would work as a basis for the Scandinavian Army and Air Force, but I think it wouldn't work as the basis of a navy because it is all fast attack craft and coastal submarines. The coast defence, battleships cruisers and destroyers had disappeared by the middle of the 1980s.

A Scandianavian Navy will need some ocean going ships. It needs destroyers & frigates in war and offshore patrol vessels to police its EEZ in peace. They'll also need some LRMP aircraft, which Sweden didn't have.
 
Points taken.

Sweden would work as a basis for the Scandinavian Army and Air Force, but I think it wouldn't work as the basis of a navy because it is all fast attack craft and coastal submarines. The coast defence, battleships cruisers and destroyers had disappeared by the middle of the 1980s.

A Scandianavian Navy will need some ocean going ships. It needs destroyers & frigates in war and offshore patrol vessels to police its EEZ in peace. They'll also need some LRMP aircraft, which Sweden didn't have.

The point is that the early Scandinavians military doctrine will be to make any attempt by USSR to take Scandinavia be a bigger version of the Winter War, while the moment Scandinavia gains nuclear weapon, the doctrine will be mixed with the doctrine of making everything between and north of Moscow and Leningrad glow in the dark, if USSR decides to use nuclear weapons against Scandinavia. A
 
Top