A Possible German-Austrian Union before the Franco-Prussian War?

I'm wondering what a German-Austrian union before the Franco-Prussian War (as the title implies) would look like. In this scenario, the French Napoleonic Second Empire still exists and is the most powerful state on the Continent. Would it be a plausible to have an enlarged German Confederation which includes Austria proper (assuming Hungary is made independent and maybe Galicia is given to either Hungary or an independent Poland)? I think the Napoleonic idea of a Confederation of the Rhine to balance Prussia and Austria would be a good idea, but how plausible is establishing this new German union in the 1860s?
As for the PoD I think it should be somewhere around the 1848 Revolutions in which they are successful in establishing a liberal democracy in Prussia, thereby extending the idea of pan-German civic nationalism to include Austria. This German Union would include a customs union and a federal army, but otherwise each state is responsible for its own internal policies. In fact, this was the idea which was prevailing in the North German Confederation; would it be possible to extend this to South Germany and Austria? What would be the reaction of other great powers to this scenario, and is it even plausible? Would this Union be more able to preserve the Basic Rights established by the Revolutions in Germany?
 
The problem was that OTL Austria want was a pseduo HRE with Austria as the full leader of the german union, when the northern states(with Prussia as lead) want a fully united states with a federal but centralized power to allow better decission and avoid interstate rivalties.

OTL prussia manage(thanks to Bismarck), to use those desired and their power to created the Reich.

Herw with a democratic prussia(what happened, the Hohenzollern were sacked from the throne?) the rivalty with austria would be bigger whose desire was to keep the power of the Hasburg family in their ancestral holding(Austria and Bohemia) and expand to the balkans...
 
Knock off Bismarck before Summer 1863 and have Wilhelm I attend the Congress of Princes. The result will probably be a looser union than OTL's Second Reich, but a union all the same. Within a matter of months the new German Union defeats Denmark and installs the Duke of Augustenburg as ruler of Schleswig-Holstein.

If the Federal Constitution follows Franz Josef's scheme, it won't be very democratic, but neither Prussia nor Austria was particularly democratic anyway.
 
Have Hungary win in 1848/49 and gain independence. For example, the uprising in Vienna spreads to other Austrian cities and the Hungarian army successfully pursues the imperial forces after the Battle of Pákozd and takes Vienna. Habsburgs either abdicated or are forced to make liberal reforms, while Hungary breaks free.
 
Have Hungary win in 1848/49 and gain independence. For example, the uprising in Vienna spreads to other Austrian cities and the Hungarian army successfully pursues the imperial forces after the Battle of Pákozd and takes Vienna. Habsburgs either abdicated or are forced to make liberal reforms, while Hungary breaks free.


Would taking Vienna necessarily bring the Habsburgs down? Even OTL they had to take refuge in Tyrol and yet survived. Couldn't Vienna just be retaken as Prague and Milan were?
 
Would taking Vienna necessarily bring the Habsburgs down? Even OTL they had to take refuge in Tyrol and yet survived. Couldn't Vienna just be retaken as Prague and Milan were?

Perhaps, but taking Vienna may result in the revoluion spreading to other urban centres, perhaps even the army, which could force the Habsburgs to seek some sort of reform.
 
Perhaps, but taking Vienna may result in the revoluion spreading to other urban centres, perhaps even the army, which could force the Habsburgs to seek some sort of reform.


How many urban centres of any size were there? Iirc, outside the Italian provinces (which couldn't get any more rebellious than they already were) Vienna was about it.

As for the army, the soldiers were largely peasants, and the abolition of feudal labour services had already given the peasantry what they wanted, so they had little reason to rebel.
 
How many urban centres of any size were there? Iirc, outside the Italian provinces (which couldn't get any more rebellious than they already were) Vienna was about it.

As for the army, the soldiers were largely peasants, and the abolition of feudal labour services had already given the peasantry what they wanted, so they had little reason to rebel.

Prague comes to mind, which might spark a revolt in all of Bohemia, as it happened in Pest and spread throughout Hungary.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Knock off Bismarck before Summer 1863 and have Wilhelm I attend the Congress of Princes. The result will probably be a looser union than OTL's Second Reich, but a union all the same. Within a matter of months the new German Union defeats Denmark and installs the Duke of Augustenburg as ruler of Schleswig-Holstein.

If the Federal Constitution follows Franz Josef's scheme, it won't be very democratic, but neither Prussia nor Austria was particularly democratic anyway.

Agreed. It is the easiest place to start. The war adds some unity. Add a French versus Reich war in the next few decades, it could give another step towards unity.
 
Agreed. It is the easiest place to start. The war adds some unity. Add a French versus Reich war in the next few decades, it could give another step towards unity.

Do you think the French would go up against a Greater Germany? It seem highly unlikely, they will need at least the Russians, but the Russians are on good terms with the Austrians until the Crimean War.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Do you think the French would go up against a Greater Germany? It seem highly unlikely, they will need at least the Russians, but the Russians are on good terms with the Austrians until the Crimean War.

Possibly. Lot of war are not so much rational decisions as emotional decision making versus a background of overestimating a nations military ability. But of course, cooler heads could prevail.

IMO, the Greater Austrian Reich will still be a part of an alliance system, which with people playing the great game, will tend to balance out. And with a mistake, a misjudgment, war can occur.
 
Possibly. Lot of war are not so much rational decisions as emotional decision making versus a background of overestimating a nations military ability. But of course, cooler heads could prevail.

IMO, the Greater Austrian Reich will still be a part of an alliance system, which with people playing the great game, will tend to balance out. And with a mistake, a misjudgment, war can occur.

The question is: when is this happening. Because by the War of Schleswig-Holstein, Prussia by itself is able to take on France alone. Now, with Austria, they are pretty much an overwhelming force. I doubt any German princes might try to oppose them. In fact, a French threat might lead to them banding together and the rise of pan-Germanism. Although the question of Austria's Hungarian territories still remains. I highly doubt they have a place in a unified German realm. I can imagine them as a closely allied puppet state of some sort, but I still think the best way for such a union is for Austria to crumble in the 1840's.
 
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