A Plethora of Princes (11b) - A Shock to the System (continued)

[Grey Wolf]

Europe 1882 - Part 5

The Kingdom of Denmark

Shattered by the mid 1860s war with Prussia, and France, Denmark has never fully recovered from the trauma. The death of King Frederick VII in 1863 had sparked the war, with Prussia invading to secure the independence of the duchies of Holstein and Schleswig under the claimant for their ducal crown, Duke Frederick. Prussia's involvement was hardly an altruistic one, the duchies fell under Prussian domination, and the German Confederation was side-lined.

But it was Denmark who suffered. Prussian forces advanced up the peninsular, whilst French naval-borne forces attacked the capital. The twin assault had the inevitable result, the surrender of Denmark and the cession of the duchies.

King Christian IX was left to rule over a country with a ruined economy and a devastated infrastructure. To his merit, the last decade and a half has seen a slow but steady revival, but Denmark remains deeply scarred as a nation, and military service is universal. The fear of a repeat performance from Prussia, or from any nation attempting to take advantage of perceived Danish weakness, has led the country to be very much a nation under arms. Although small, the Danish Navy consists of modern ironclads, and is kept up-to-date.


The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies

1848 was a defining year for the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. An autonomist revolt in Sicily sparked a constitutionalist rising in Naples, and soon the granting of constitutions raged across the Italian peninsular. The arousal of nationalist feeling was channelled by King Ferdinando II and Pope Pius IX into the League of Italy, an association of sovereigns under the leadership of the Pope, and modelled very much on the German Confederation.

The League of Italy allowed King Ferdinando II to separate his realms, and to rule as king of Sicily with its own institutions. Under the League of Italy, this worked well and Sicily, so long home to risings and rebellions, settled down. King Ferdinando II died in 1859 and was succeeded by his son, King Francesco II.

The successful rule of King Francesco II (or 'Bamba' as he was affectionally known) was shattered by the Italian War of 1879-1881. This was sparked by the death of Pope Pius IX, and the new King of Piedmont-Sardinia, Umberto I, with his desire to transform the League into a nationalist force with himself to be placed at the head. Together with Austria, it was the arms of the Two Sicilies who swept back the nationalist forces, lifted the siege of Rome and restored the status quo ante-bellum.

But the League was dead. The new Pope had his hands full dealing with problems in the Papal States, and the will to revive the League was lacking. For King Francesco II this was the beginning of a new period of difficulties. Sicily once again emerged as a problem, and by 1882 is in full rebellion, seeking complete independence for itself.


Grey Wolf

 

[Grey Wolf]

Europe 1882 - Part 6

The Kingdom of Ireland

Independent in the 1836 settlement of the British Civil War, Ireland has been ruled since by King Francis I, third son of King Louis Philippe I of France. Ireland thus became the third Orleans kingdom in Europe, and for a while formed a bloc with France and Belgium.

Ireland is a Catholic country. The civil war which began very much with the Irish risings against the failure of the bills for Catholic Emancipation, ended with the driving of the majority Protestant population from the North. Massacres and atrocities were the order of the day on both sides of the conflict, but in the decades since the settlement Ireland has settled down to a peaceful existence.

Largely an agrarian country, there has been a fair degree of industrialisation over recent decades, though this is mainly centred in a few of the biggest cities. Ireland retains a small professional standing army, but the days when the fear of British revanchist plans could produce real fears are long gone. The navy, initially strong with ships bought from France, now consists of mainly a coastal protection force, with some cruisers to show the flag on overseas stations.


The Kingdom of Bavaria

King Ludwig II succeeded his grandfather, Ludwig I as King of Bavaria in 1868, his father Crown Prince Maximilian having died in 1864. Born in 1845, Ludwig II is not yet forty years of age and has been king for most of his adult life. Something of an enigma, Ludwig II remains very popular with the people, but is less highly regarded in more powerful circles. His profligacy and his refusal to marry have caused difficulties with successive governments, but it is said that coming to terms with their monarch's eccentricities is a mark of fitness to govern. Ludwig II's heir is thus his younger brother, Prince Otto, although alarmingly he too remains unmarried, though aged only in his early thirties.

It cannot be denied that under the rule of King Ludwig II, Bavaria has prospered and managed to avoid being dragged into the various conflicts that have occurred, or threatened to occur in the past few decades. Bavaria is in fact generally happy with the demise of the political function of the German Confederation, having viewed it as an imposition upon their sovereignty. Although very wary of Prussia's designs, Bavaria believes that it has been freed from unnecessary chains, and in 1882 the future looks rosy.

Politically closely-allied with Austria, dynastic relations between the countries are also close.


The Kingdom of Hannover

Carved off from personal union with Great Britain by the 1836 settlement of the British Civil War, Hannover has been ruled since that date by the Cambridge branch of the Hannoverian dynasty. King Adolphus I, Duke of Cambridge had been the chief lieutenant of his brother King Ernest Augustus within the kingdom. This position as viceroy was translated into that of king by the settlement, and King Adolphus ruled until his death in 1850.

A large number of High Tory refugees, aristocrats under attainder after the conclusion of the civil war in Great Britain, settled in Hannover. Many of these have been accorded Hannoverian noble titles, though the most ostentatious still use, illegally, their confiscated British titles, some of which have since been granted to new holders back in Great Britain. This exiled aristocracy has seen a number of defections, largely amongst the sons of the original exiles who shared less in their political beliefs and were happy to make their peace with the King in London after decades of exile. This has largely died out now, and those exiles who remain in Hannover are now more Hannoverian than British. They comprise a small but important political establishment, and wield a fair degree of power within Hannover.

The current King of Hannover, King George V, shares his name and numeric identifier with his first cousin across the water in London. To distinguish the two, the Hannoverian monarch is usually referred to by his German name of Georg.

Hannover remains a fairly conservative country, and has avoided the conflicts within Germany over the duchies of Schleswig and Holstein. The demise of the political role of the German Confederation is viewed largely with disinterest within Hannover. The rise of Prussia is seen as a danger, and the plans to build a canal from Kiel across the isthmus to the North Sea is viewed with concern, as a threat to Hannoverian commerce.


Grey Wolf

 

[DuQuense]

Perhaps this one



http://www.sciences-po.fr/cartograp...ds_continents/europe_continents/euro1815.gif
or this one

http://www.sciences-po.fr/cartograp...nds_continents/europe_continents/euro1914.gif

 

[Grey Wolf]

Neither seem to load - are you sure its the complete URL ?

Grey Wolf

 

[DuQuense]

think I fixed it try now

 

[Grey Wolf]

Europe 1882 - Part 7

The Kingdom of Saxony

Prior to the General European War in the mid 1860s, Saxony had traditionally looked to Russia as a balance against their powerful Prussian neighbour. But the defeat of Russia and the recreation of an independent Poland under a Habsburg archduke changed all this. With Poland as a neighbour, Saxony could no longer look to Russia for anything more than moral support. Politically, Saxony who had hoped to form part of a union of German states of the second order, was forced to rely on Austria in case of crisis, to compromise the hopes of breaking free from the Prussia-or-Austria situation that in Saxon eyes did not bring much of benefit to the other German powers.

King Albrecht succeeded his father, King Johann, upon the latter's death in 1872. Although married to a Swedish princess, King Albrecht has no children, and his heir is his brother, Prince Georg. Saxony is a constitutional monarchy, with the power of day-to-day affairs in the hands of a Prime Minister.

Saxony's response to Prussia's annexation of Schleswig and Holstein has been muted, though the effective end to the political function of the German Confederation has been greeted with a mixture of regret and concern. Prussian actions without recourse to the desires of the other German powers, seems to presage a greater threat to Saxony. As a consequence, 1882 has seen a new Army Act and a planned increase of the standing army to over 30,000. Some sort of formal alliance with Austria is also being discussed, but the etiquette for this remains confused as the German Confederation, although in its political function redundant, nevertheless continues to exist.


The Kingdom of Wurttemberg

King Karl I of Wurttemberg succeeded his father, King Wilhelm I in 1864. Although married to a Grand Duchess of Russia (Olga, a daughter of the late Tsar Nicholas I) the couple remain childless and his heir is his cousin, Prince Wilhelm.

Wurttemberg, like Saxony, had looked to Russia before the 1860s to provide a balance within Germany against the twin powers of Prussia and Austria. Like Saxony, again, Wurttemberg had had to reorientate its policy after the result of that war and the creation of an independent Poland. Wurttemberg retained hopes of eventual territorial aggrandizement (Baden and Hohenzollern were often mentioned) but had chosen to remain diplomatically neutral, ready to ally with any victorious coalition should a general war come to Germany.

In the meantime, King Karl I continued his predecessor's policy of maintaining the status quo within the kingdom. As an avid breeder of horses, Karl I nevertheless struck up close relations both with King Maximilian of Poland and Sultan Ismail of Egypt. On a personal level he became close to both of these fellow monarchs, but on a diplomatic level he kept Wurttemberg above any hint of an entangling alliance.


Grey Wolf

 

[Grey Wolf]

think I fixed it try now

Yes, they do work, thanks

The 1815 one is useful for Germany and Italy, whilst the 1914 one I guess shows where the border with Denmark now is (1882) but probably not for much else.

I'll look into my own bookmarks of maps etc when I've completed the posts on Europe 1882, because if I don't finish those today then I never will, they'll begin to seem like a chore, something hanging over my head. As it is, with Part 7 I've now completed all the kingdoms in Europe. There remain the principalities in the Balkans (4 including Serbia and Montenegro), the Ottoman Empire, maybe Egypt since its been so involved in European affairs, and also owns Crete, and some of the grand duchies, in Italy and in Germany. So, that's my work for today, lol !

Grey Wolf

 

[Grey Wolf]

Europe 1882 - Part 8

The Grand Duchy of Tuscany

Grand Duke Ferdinand IV succeeded to the grand ducal throne of Tuscany upon the death of his father, Grand Duke Leopoldo II in 1870. Having reigned since 1824, Leopoldo II's reign had seen the 1848 constitutionalist risings across Italy which had resulted in the formation of the League of I taly under the Pope, Pius IX.

Largely untouched by events in the meantime, and a haven of tranquility during the General European War in the mid 1860s, Tuscany had risen once more to prominence with the Piedmontese invasion of 1879. The deaths of Pope Pius IX and the Austrian Emperor Franz II Karl in 1878 had seemed to offer the new King of Piedmont-Sardinia, Umberto I, an opportunity to realise Savoyard and nationalist ambitions. Whilst his ambassadors pressed the case for Piedmontese leadership of the League of Italy in Rome, King Umberto I began his 'March on Rome' with an invasion of the central Italian states. Completely unprepared, the Tuscan army collapsed, and Grand Duke Ferdinand IV fled to refuge in Austria.

Austrian entry into the war commenced with a cutting asunder of the Piedmontese armies, a thrust into Tuscany that cut them in half, and allowed Ferdinand to re-enter his capital in 1881, before the conclusion of the war. Eventual Austrian, and Two Sicilies victory, brought a return of the status quo ante bellum. But the League of Italy was now dead.

Ferdinand has managed to restore a measure of stability to his state. Although it had seen its fair share of nationalist risings during the war, Tuscany in 1882 is a more peacable place than either Lombardy-Venetia or the Papal States, let alone Sicily where full-scale war now wages.


The Grand Duchy of Hesse and by Rhine

Grand Duke Ludwig IV is married to Princess Charlotte of Great Britain, a daughter of King George V. He inherited the grand ducal crown from his uncle, Grand Duke Ludwig III in 1877 after the death of his father, Prince Karl earlier in the same year.

Hesse and by Rhine charts a neutral course within the German Confederation, though like many other states views the Prussian acquisition of Schleswig-Holstein with some alarm, and the collapse of the German Confederation's political function with concern, as now the voice of the Grand Duchy has no formal forum to be heard in.


Grey Wolf

 

[Hierophant]

This is just an odd thought but a while back I was researching submarines and found out the french had some of the first ones, good ones too, back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Maybe you could have them develope them as a counter to the British dreadnought fleet.

 

[Grey Wolf]

This is just an odd thought but a while back I was researching submarines and found out the french had some of the first ones, good ones too, back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Maybe you could have them develope them as a counter to the British dreadnought fleet.

You are correct about early French submarines - Ropp covers them quite well (and I used the idea in my 1900 French attack on Britain timeline). At the moment in this ATL (the moment being 1882) the main fleets of the world are ironclad ones after their development in the General European War of the mid 1860s, and their advances in the US Civil War of 1869-71. I suppose the Italian War of 1879-81 probably saw some naval action too, but Piedmont-Sardinia was not greatly renowned for its navy, I don't think. I would expect that it retired to its harbours and let the Austrian and Two Sicilies fleets have the run of the sea, which presents fewer opportunities for action, but probably some and some idea of the reliability of the ships of the age to hold the sea for any period.

The timeline tends to advance a couple of years at a time, so I have no real idea what's going to happen next, not beyond the immediate anyway. I would say that France has some definite problems with the royalists on the one hand and the radicals on the other alost at a state of civil war in the streets of Paris. Something has to give...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Oddball]

Norway is Swedish, I guess I should have mentioned it and probably need to look into the early independence movements. The POD for the timeline is not till the mid 1820s and begins to impact places only as the waves of alternateness wash over them.

Now that Sweden has Finland, the border question with Russia is not so difficult as the Finmark border is interior. The borders of Finland itself with Russia will presumably be what they were in 1815

Grey Wolf

With Sweden in posession of Finland AND Norway, I would presume that the likelyhood of a Norwegian independence movement would be even moe likely than OTL.

This is because with Finland, Swedish interest in Norwegian needs regarding shipping would be even less.

Also regarding the border issue; the 1815 treaty where Norway "became" Swedish, left Norway pretty independent with her own constitution and parlament. In fact it was a personal union with the Swedish king. In OTL the fixing of the "internal" Swedish-Norwegian border was not a cakewalk...

Btw, how did Sweden gain Finland? Im too lazy to read all the posts again

 

[Grey Wolf]

With Sweden in posession of Finland AND Norway, I would presume that the likelyhood of a Norwegian independence movement would be even moe likely than OTL.

This is because with Finland, Swedish interest in Norwegian needs regarding shipping would be even less.

Also regarding the border issue; the 1815 treaty where Norway "became" Swedish, left Norway pretty independent with her own constitution and parlament. In fact it was a personal union with the Swedish king. In OTL the fixing of the "internal" Swedish-Norwegian border was not a cakewalk...

Btw, how did Sweden gain Finland? Im too lazy to read all the posts again

I guess the reacquisition of Finland could have started some movements in Norway earlier than in OTL, or more vehement than in OTL. It gets really confusing though if I try to keep every ball up in the air, without letting some land on the ground of convergence.

Sweden regained Finland after the conclusion of the General European War which grew out of the twin tensions of renewed conflict in the Eastern Mediterranean between Russia and France and their allies, and on the other hand a rising within Poland that had its origin in the late 1850s emancipation of the serfs within the Austrian Empire.

The war grew to include a Prussian invasion of Denmark over the issue of Schleswig and Holstein, and a Franco-Prussian alliance, seeing France help Prussia in the Baltic. France then aided the Polish rebels both through Prussia, and in alliance with Sweden.

In addition, the Rumanian Principalities caught the revolutionary bug from their sizeable Polish exile community (descended from the 1830-31 revolutionaries). The rising within Moldavia and Wallachia was to throw off Russian influence. Russian invaded but the threat of Austrian invasion forced them to draw back.

Thus, the peace that ended the war saw :-
- an independent Poland consisting of Congress Poland and Galicia-Krakow under Archduke Maximilian as King
- the re-acquisition of the Grand Duchy of Finland by Sweden
- the eradication of the Russian protectorate over the Principalities

Grey Wolf

 

[Grey Wolf]

Europe 1882 - Part 9

The Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia

Although ruled separately by non-hereditary native princes, the two Rumanian principalities can be treated together because they share the same international situation.

Governed since 1834 under the Organic Statutes, Moldavia and Wallachia each had a prince elected by the boyars from amongst their own number, and with the power of veto over the assemblies of boyars in each of the principalities' capitals. Russia remained the protecting power, with the right of intervention.

By the 1840s the principalities had become home to the exiled Polish communities from the 1830-31 revolution. This was to be a key to events in the early-mid 1860s when a new Polish Uprising, resultant from the emancipation of the serfs within the Austrian Empire, blew up. Tensions spread to the principalities, many in Moldavia and Wallachia seeing it as an opportunity to throw off Russian dominance.

Russia invaded but the actions of Austria, moving armies to the border and threatening war caused Russia to pull back. With the outbreak of the General European War, and the eventual Russian defeat, this action was to form the basis for a new settlement for the principalities.

Three small districts of Southern Bessarabia which had been ceded to Russia in 1812 were retroceded to Moldavia. The Russian protectorate over both principalities was abolished. There were changes to the constitutions, but the boyars remained very much in control.

Since the 1860s, the principalities have remained very conservative and under-developed countries. There have been some moves towards reform, including a harder line against the Dedicated Monastries, whose mission ought to include the charitable provision of institutiona such as hospitals but largely had failed to do so. The condition of the peasant has been addressed in some half-hearted measures as a result of the Russian emancipation of the serfs in the 1870s. The peasant in Moldavia or Wallachia is not a serf but is tied by many obligations to the landlord and the status of his land is uncertain. By and large, however, the countryside remains in 1882 a land of great estates, most of which are not intensely farmed, and many of which in Wallachia are governed by appointees of their absentee landlords.


The Principality of Serbia

Prince Milos I Obrenovic secured the Ottoman recognition of Serbia's borders in 1838, but internally the young state was not to have a very stable history for the next few decades. Milos himself abdicated in 1838, but his son, Milan I reigned for only 26 days before his death from Tuberculosis. He was followed by Milos' second son, Michael who returned to take up his crown in 1840, and lasted until 1842 when he was deposed. The Serbs chose Alexander Karageorgevic, son of the great Kara George, as their new prince.

Alexander's reign was beset with difficulty, not least because the Ottoman Empire had only granted hereditary status to the Obrenovic dynasty, thus weakening his own position still further. Nevertheless Prince Alexander managed to stay on the throne until his own deposition in 1858. As of 1882 he is still alive, aged seventy-six and living in exile.

After the deposition of Prince Alexander, the Serbs welcomed Prince Milos back as their reigning prince. Milos died at the age of eighty in 1859 and was once again succeeded by his son Michael as reigning prince. Aged fifty-eight in 1882, Prince Michael is unmarried and his heir is his nephew, Prince Milan.

The history of Serbia in international affairs has been one of forced inaction. In both the Eastern Mediterranean War of the mid 1850s, and the General European War of the mid 1860s, Austria parked an army on the borders of Serbia and maintained naval patrols along the Adriatic to ensure Serbian neutrality.

Prince Michael is a thoughtful man and has written a lot on his vision of the destiny of the South Slav peoples, but the strength of Austria and the resurgence of the Ottoman Empire do not seem likely to allow the exploration of his dreams within his own lifetime.


The Principality of Montenegro

Montenegro has had a prince, as opposed to a prince bishop since 1852 when Danilo I secularised the office. The small mountain principality retains a strange status in international affairs. To some degree it is nominally subordinate to the Ottoman Empire, but the Ottomans have no say whatsoever within Montenegro's borders where the prince and the tribal leaders hold sway. Russian influence is strong, and Montenegro receives a historic subsidy from Russia which is an important aspect of its annual finances.

The town of Grahovo was seized by Montenegro, annexed from Hercegovina in 1858 during a period of Ottoman weakness. Despite this triumph, Prince Danilo I was assassinated in 1860 and succeeded by his son, Prince Nicholas I who was born in 1841.

Two decades of Prince Nicholas' rule has seen a steady increase in the power of the state over the tribal leaders, who nevertheless are the major power brokers in Montenegro. The formalisation of government institutions has brought tribal leaders into the structure of government, rather than made them external to it, and gradually Prince Nicholas is transforming his principality into a more recognisably modern state.


Grey Wolf

 

[Grey Wolf]

Europe 1882 - Part 10

The Ottoman Empire

The Ottoman Empire has been on an upward trend since the General European War of the mid 1860s. For the three decades previously the Ottoman Empire had come under Russian dominance since the Treaty of Unkiar Skelessi. This dominance was born of the wars which saw the independence of Egypt and the need of the Ottoman Empire for allies. Over time this culture of dominance began to seem the natural order of things.

The mid 1850s Eastern Mediterranean War seemed to offer proof of this state of affairs. Despite Egyptian weaknesses, the Ottoman Empire relied on Russian aid to take the province of Syria and was repulsed by French forces in an effort to take the Lebanon. At the same time an Ottoman army in the Balkans was annihilated, leading to Greek acquisition of the provinces of Epirus and Thessaly.

The death of Sultan Abdul Mejid in 1861 brought his brother Abdul Aziz to the throne as Sultan. Abdul Aziz's reign was to get off to a good start with the General European War. Ottoman armies increasingly bore the brunt of the fighting in the Levant as Russian forces were required elsewhere. And to cap it off, an Ottoman army in the Balkans inflicted a comprehensive defeat upon a Greek army and reconquered all of Thessaly.

The settlement of the war didn't change much in the Levant, but Ottoman armies had for a while entered Palestine, and the morale boost of this achievement, together with the victory in the Balkans brought about a whole new perspective in Istanbul. The settlement had seen the Russian protectorate over the Rumanian principalities come to an end, and now the Ottoman Empire exerted its own independence from Russian dominance.

By 1882 there remains a Russo-Ottoman alliance, and Sultan Abdul Aziz remains on the throne, a popular and highly regarded ruler


Grey Wolf

 

[Grey Wolf]

The 1882 Summaries

I hope the series of 1882 summaries answers the requests for information of a summative sort and gives a feeling for the ATL

The full list is :-

Great Britain
France
Austria
Spain
- - - 2
Piedmont-Sardinia
Prussia
Poland
Belgium
- - - 3
Netherlands
Russia
- - - 4
Greece
Sweden
Portugal
Two Sicilies
- - - 5
Denmark
Two Sicilies (oops, lol)
- - - 6
Ireland
Bavaria
Hannover
- - - 7
Saxony
Wurttemberg
- - - 8
Tuscany
Hesse & by Rhine
- - - 9
Moldavia and Wallachia
Serbia
Montenegro
- - - 10
Ottoman Empire


Grey Wolf

 

[Nicole]

Is the Danish militarism aimed at an eventual reconquest of Schelswig and Holstein, or simply to protect what they have left?

 

[Grey Wolf]

Is the Danish militarism aimed at an eventual reconquest of Schelswig and Holstein, or simply to protect what they have left?

I think mainly the latter

They didn't just lose the war, they were humiliated with Prussian conquest on land and French naval aggression as well. The national spirit was broken, and Denmark's self image shrank to be no better than, well maybe Wurttemberg, a third class kingdom with delusions of grandeur.

Of course, Denmark still rules the Faeroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland and the Danish Virgin Isles (or whatever they were called). It has a territorial extent.

But the main fear is that in any great clash of the powers, Denmark will be brushed aside, Copenhagened as per Nelson and the other, second, forgotten time in the Napoleonic wars. There is a fierce spirit that the humiliation of the 1860s must never happen again.

Added to that, there are of course voices, factions who look to the regaining of Schleswig and Holstein as an ultimate aim, but they are not mainstream, and do not influence decision making anywhere near as much as above

Grey Wolf

 

[Nicole]

I think mainly the latter

They didn't just lose the war, they were humiliated with Prussian conquest on land and French naval aggression as well. The national spirit was broken, and Denmark's self image shrank to be no better than, well maybe Wurttemberg, a third class kingdom with delusions of grandeur.

Of course, Denmark still rules the Faeroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland and the Danish Virgin Isles (or whatever they were called). It has a territorial extent.

The Danish West Indies are what the Danes called the Virgin Isles.. Hm, with the sense of a wounded national pride, a sale of those islands seems less likely.
Does the rise of Danish militarism occur in Iceland, the West Indies, or the Faeroes as well?

 

[fhaessig]

industrial strength relative to OTL

Sorry for being a bit late on this mail, but I just came back from holidays.

Reading this thread I wondered about the relative industrial strength ( measured in steel production and railroad lanes installed ) of the major players, as compared to OTL, in 1882.

Here are my thoughts, and a question. Are they correct?

-USA : more military, which should translate as more industrialisation, but also a lot more conflicts, which is not favorable to investment. Also, the british money is not going to be invested in the USA. So overall, I think USA is less industrialised than OTL.
- Britain : Due to the civil war it suffered, as well as political unstability, I think Angland is definitely much less industrialised than OTL.
- Germany : Germany is not unified yet in the TL, so there is no single market or policy. I think Germany is much less industrialised than OTL. Is Krupp even in operation in Germany, or has he moved his firm to Belgium or France?
- Belgium : It's bigger than OTL and described as an economic powerhouse, so I think it's more industrialised than OTL ( even if OTL, it was the second more industrialised country in Europe in the 1860s ).
- France : France is definitely much better than OTL. Its is bigger, with 2.5 to 3 million people more, at least. It has avoided the destructions and reparations of OTL 70 war ( which were ruinous; 15 billion gold francs overall ) and the Commune civil war. Finally, the Orleanist pro-industry policy has been in operation without interruptions for 40 years.

Now for the question. Belgium is stated as being the more industrialised country in Europe. Why is that?
In OTL, France had overtaken Belgium by that point, even with all the reverse she suffered. I think that, in this TL, France does better than Belgium, with respect to OTL, and so should be even further aheadf Belgium.

Did I miss something? Or was the statement on a per Capita basis?

 

[Grey Wolf]

Sorry for being a bit late on this mail, but I just came back from holidays.

Reading this thread I wondered about the relative industrial strength ( measured in steel production and railroad lanes installed ) of the major players, as compared to OTL, in 1882.

Here are my thoughts, and a question. Are they correct?

-USA : more military, which should translate as more industrialisation, but also a lot more conflicts, which is not favorable to investment. Also, the british money is not going to be invested in the USA. So overall, I think USA is less industrialised than OTL.
- Britain : Due to the civil war it suffered, as well as political unstability, I think Angland is definitely much less industrialised than OTL.

I'm not sure it would be logical for Britain to be much less industrialised, but less to some degree, yes. The Radicals are certainly interested in improving the lot of the working man. This would have both positive and negative benefits (if that can be said, lol) - for example hygeine, housing, conditions etc would be a higher priority and inventions and investment that further this would be more favoured. The negative benefit would be less exploitation of the worker, thus a slower capitalism as it first has to meet the required standards, then expand, but I think it would be able to do this. The Reformists, and the Whigs are the mercantile parties and would back enterprise and industry whilst in power.

- Germany : Germany is not unified yet in the TL, so there is no single market or policy. I think Germany is much less industrialised than OTL. Is Krupp even in operation in Germany, or has he moved his firm to Belgium or France?
- Belgium : It's bigger than OTL and described as an economic powerhouse, so I think it's more industrialised than OTL ( even if OTL, it was the second more industrialised country in Europe in the 1860s ).
- France : France is definitely much better than OTL. Its is bigger, with 2.5 to 3 million people more, at least. It has avoided the destructions and reparations of OTL 70 war ( which were ruinous; 15 billion gold francs overall ) and the Commune civil war. Finally, the Orleanist pro-industry policy has been in operation without interruptions for 40 years.

Definitely with Germany, though the evolution of the German Confederation makes a single market likely, probably its only lasting legacy.

Now for the question. Belgium is stated as being the more industrialised country in Europe. Why is that?
In OTL, France had overtaken Belgium by that point, even with all the reverse she suffered. I think that, in this TL, France does better than Belgium, with respect to OTL, and so should be even further ahead of Belgium.

Did I miss something? Or was the statement on a per Capita basis?

I'm no economist (despite my 'A' grade 'A' level, lol) but my thoughts were on this basis :-

- Belgium with all of Limburg and all of Luxembourg has more resources and industry even than OTL
- I drew a comparison to Iceland of today - booming companies with a small country, thus always looking to expand and use up their capital in investment

Best Regards
Grey Wolf