A Plantagenet Empire

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isabella

What if Henry II of England died much earlier than OTL, between 1470 and 1474, either before or at the start of the first rebellion of his sons?

Henry would become Henry III of England, while both Richard (who would marry Alys here) and Geoffrey would be able to rule their lands independently as neither had to give homage to England for their lands and Eleanor, not being captured, would remain free and likely would spend her energy on securing who the relationships between her sons would stay friendly.
 
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Angevin tree
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    • isabella

    Henry II, King of England (1133-1174) married Eleanor, Duchess of Aquitaine (b. 1122) in 1152
    1. William, Count of Poitiers (1153-1156)
    2. Henry III, King of England (1155-1183) married Margaret of France, Countess of Vexin (b. 1158)
      1. William (1177)
    3. Matilda (b. 1156) married Henry III, Duke of Saxony and Bavaria (b. 1131) with issue
    4. Richard, Duke of Aquitaine (b. 1157) married Alys of France, Countess of Vexin (b. 1161) in 1174 with issue
    5. Geoffrey, Duke of Brittany (1158-1186) married Constance, Duchess of Brittany (b. 1161) with issue
    6. Eleanor (b. 1162) married Alfonso VIII, King of Castile (b. 1155) with issue
    7. Joan (b. 1165) married William II, King of Sicily (b. 1153) with issue ?
    8. John (b. 1166) married ?
     
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    • isabella

    Wendell said:
    Maybe there's a Crusader princess available for John?
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    I do not think who he will ever go in Outremer and I have doubts on John marrying at all…
    Plus looking again at the dates and plans I doubt who Richard and Geoffrey (and Eleanor) will have the time to join Henry the Young King’s rebellion
     

    isabella

    FalconHonour said:
    Wouldn't he get the Gloucester heiress he was betrothed to OTL?
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    No way as she was engaged to John only in 1176 in OTL (and she would NOT be a big heiress like OTL as Henry II disinherited her two sisters for giving all the lands of her family to John). Right now he was engaged to the heiress presumptive of Savoy, Alais or Alicia of Savoy, but the girl (born in 1166) died around 1174 after joining Henry II’s court and in any case would get a younger half-brother in 1178, meaning who John would dependant by the Young King and as the main reason for the revolt was Henry II’s favouritism towards John, I doubt who Henry III would be much generous with his youngest brother, meaning who John can very well end joining the Church
     
    FalconHonour

    FalconHonour

    isabella said:
    No way as she was engaged to John only in 1176 in OTL (and she would NOT be a big heiress like OTL as Henry II disinherited her two sisters for giving all the lands of her family to John). Right now he was engaged to the heiress presumptive of Savoy, Alais or Alicia of Savoy, but the girl (born in 1166) died around 1174 after joining Henry II’s court and in any case would get a younger half-brother in 1178, meaning who John would dependant by the Young King and as the main reason for the revolt was Henry II’s favouritism towards John, I doubt who Henry III would be much generous with his youngest brother, meaning who John can very well end joining the Church
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    Fair. I don't know the period between the Anarchy and John's accession terribly well, so I'll take your word for it.

    If John doesn't end up in the Church, could he marry Aoife, (OTL Countess of Pembroke)? And have an Irish powerbase, perhaps?
     

    isabella

    FalconHonour said:
    Fair. I don't know the period between the Anarchy and John's accession terribly well, so I'll take your word for it.
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    I checked on her and in any case what angered Henry the Young King and started his rebellion was the fact who Henry II gave to John some important castles in Normandy for his wedding contract to Alicia of Savoy without consulting him, when not only he was his father’s co-ruler, but he (and also Richard and Geoffrey) had not received assignations of any castle or permanent income, meaning who they had just empty titles and were used as little more than puppets…
    FalconHonour said:
    If John doesn't end up in the Church, could he marry Aoife, (OTL Countess of Pembroke)? And have an Irish powerbase, perhaps?
    Click to expand...
    No, because she and Clare were married in 1170 so a couple of years before the POD…

    Still I have two different possibilities with John, depending from what I will do with other people…
     
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    TickTock The Witch's Dead

    isabella said:
    I do not think who he will ever go in Outremer and I have doubts on John marrying at all…
    Plus looking again at the dates and plans I doubt who Richard and Geoffrey (and Eleanor) will have the time to join Henry the Young King’s rebellion
    Click to expand...
    Why won’t Richard go to the Holy Land? He can try to be King of Jerusalem there.
     

    isabella

    1-800-wandsthetic said:
    I know, I'm just saying that having four sons doesn't mean a lot with regards to succession
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    But mean a lot with division of lands. The revolt of Henry II’s sons was born by the favoritism demonstrated by that King towards his younger one who got precious border castles from the holdings of the Young King (who was his father’s co-ruler in England, Normandy and Anjou BUT was NOT consulted over this) as part of the pacts for marrying him to a future heiress while his three elder brothers had only empty titles without power, stable incomes or personal holdings. So John will NOT receive anything by his brother Henry (and neither from Richard and likely would be the same for Geoffrey)
     
    ordinarylittleme

    ordinarylittleme

    isabella said:
    But mean a lot with division of lands. The revolt of Henry II’s sons was born by the favoritism demonstrated by that King towards his younger one who got precious border castles from the holdings of the Young King (who was his father’s co-ruler in England, Normandy and Anjou BUT was NOT consulted over this) as part of the pacts for marrying him to a future heiress while his three elder brothers had only empty titles without power, stable incomes or personal holdings.
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    True, so with a Henry II dead earlier then there will be none of this...and of course Eleanor of Aquitaine would NOT be locked up for a decade so she can get up to a lot...
     
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