A phoenix rises from the ashes the rebirth of a glorious empire v2.0

The short v1.0 was ASb.
Thus I have actually done some real research and here is the new Tl. ENjoy:

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In 1273 Michael VIII realizes that union between west and east would alienate clergy and populace. Plans are dropped for the union.
Michael decides to focus on Bulgaria and Serbia.
Byzantine armies crush the Bulgarians led by the peasant Ivaylo.By 1275 Bulgaria is under complete Roman control. Bulgaria gets annexed.
Roman troops in 1275 invade Serbia. At Kosovo the Serbians suffer a terrible defeat. Shortly afterwards the capitol of Serbia falls to Roman troops.
Michael sends fleet of 73 ships to harass crusader states. At the battle of Neopatras in 1275 John Paleologos crushes John Doukas and John de la roche. Shortly afterwards the Latin state of Athens falls to the 20k strong mercenary army under John.
1277: The 20k Mercenary army under John invades the wallachian states. The States fail to put up a fight and are quickly crushed.
The Pope enraged at the fall of Athens is about to call crusade.
At the last minute he is bought off buy Michael who pays him 3 tons of gold.
Meanwhile Charles I of Anjou of Sicily invades the Roman Empire. At the battle of Morea John Paleologos kills Charles and the battle ends in decisive Roman victory.
With Charles killed the turmoil allows John to retake Achaia.
Louis the son of Charles sues for peace and gives up Achaia to the Romans.
Peace is finally achieved
Michael grows increasingly wary of the Turkish migrations. Michael passes edict of Nikea: in Edict Turks are treated as second class citizens, but if they convert to Orthodoxy then they will enjoy full political and social right as the Romans. They will also become honorary Romans.
The Turks in Anatolia suffer terribly under mistreatment and suffer as second-class citizens so many decide to convert. The Turks who convert lead much better lives and achieve high positions. Soon many Turks follow hoping to lead better lives and escape from poverty.
1280: Michael sighs with relief the Turks have finally begun Romanization. His Anatolian positions are secure.
Irene Paleologina the eldest daughter of Michael is married to Tekuder in 1280. Tekuder was considering converting to Islam but with his marriage to Irene drops the idea completely. Irene soon influences her husband. Abaqua Khan dies, Tekuder becomes Khagan. Tekuder renews his alliance with the Roman Empire. Relations between Iikhan and the Romans prosper. Tekuder was unlike his brother Abaqua a Nestorian Christian. Soon at the urging of his wife Tekuder proclaims Nestorian Christianity as the state religion of the Iikhanite.
Michael sees the opportunity to gain a powerful ally. He begins talks with Tekuder about a potential union between the orthodox and Nestorian churches. Although at council of Nikea Nestorianism was heretical, Michael decides that the religion would be useful to secure him a new ally.
1181 Tekuder agrees to the proposal, soon the Nestorian clergy begin talks with the orthodox clergy. The Patriarch of Constantinople John XI promotes the union. Sees this as a way to get back at the Pope.
1283 Michael VIII dies and his son Andronikos succeed to the throne.
1284: Andronikos II inherits a stable empire and he marries Agnes of France.
Franco-Roman tensions start to ease. Agnes becomes Anna of the Rhomanoi.


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Anyway in otl Tekuder was the son of a Nestorian Christian. In OTL he converted to Islam, but in this tl he remains Nestorian. Thus with a Nestorian on the Iikhan throne it becomes the state religion. Although it is state religion, Islam and Buddhism is still tolerated.
Otl Ivanlyo led some crushing victories against the Romans. In this tl he fails to do that.
Otl battle of Neopatras could have easily gone the other way. With a victory here Roman control of Athens is plausible.
In this Tl we have a more competent John Paleologaie. He kills Chalres at Morea. Thus With Charles dead the turmoil in Sicily allows the Normans to take Achiai. Louis is in no position to retake achiaie, so he sues for peace.
Anyway what do people think.

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Constantinos said:
Byzantine armies crush the Bulgarians led by the peasant Ivaylo.By 1275 Bulgaria is under complete Roman control. Bulgaria gets annexed.
Roman troops in 1275 invade Serbia. At Kosovo the Serbians suffer a terrible defeat. Shortly afterwards the capitol of Serbia falls to Roman troops.

This is my how-the-hell-is-this-possible face: :eek:

And it goes downhill from there. Again, you are ignoring the difficulties of Michael's situation.

As for this:

Michael grows increasingly wary of the Turkish migrations. Michael passes edict of Nikea: in Edict Turks are treated as second class citizens, but if they convert to Orthodoxy then they will enjoy full political and social right as the Romans. They will also become honorary Romans.
The Turks in Anatolia suffer terribly under mistreatment and suffer as second-class citizens so many decide to convert. The Turks who convert lead much better lives and achieve high positions. Soon many Turks follow hoping to lead better lives and escape from poverty.
The Turks in Anatolia are not citizens, second class or otherwise, of Byzantium. This isn't going to make a dime's worth of difference.

Look, I really want to help here, but you have to recognize just how limited Michael's resources are and how staggering the tasks he's facing are.

Some of this - say, closer ties to the Ilkhanate - may be something that can be worked with. Other parts...

No. Just, no.

And arbitrarily making it so that " Otl Ivanlyo led some crushing victories against the Romans. In this tl he fails to do that." is...underwhelming as an explanation, same with "" In this Tl we have a more competent John Paleologaie. He kills Chalres at Morea. Thus With Charles dead the turmoil in Sicily allows the Normans to take Achiai. Louis is in no position to retake achiaie, so he sues for peace.".

And on that note, what Normans?
 
This is my how-the-hell-is-this-possible face: :eek:

And it goes downhill from there. Again, you are ignoring the difficulties of Michael's situation.

As for this:

The Turks in Anatolia are not citizens, second class or otherwise, of Byzantium. This isn't going to make a dime's worth of difference.

Look, I really want to help here, but you have to recognize just how limited Michael's resources are and how staggering the tasks he's facing are.

Some of this - say, closer ties to the Ilkhanate - may be something that can be worked with. Other parts...

No. Just, no.

And arbitrarily making it so that " Otl Ivanlyo led some crushing victories against the Romans. In this tl he fails to do that." is...underwhelming as an explanation, same with "" In this Tl we have a more competent John Paleologaie. He kills Chalres at Morea. Thus With Charles dead the turmoil in Sicily allows the Normans to take Achiai. Louis is in no position to retake achiaie, so he sues for peace.".

And on that note, what Normans?



Jeez... Ok in this tl Michael wins against Ivan. Otl the Byzantines suffered crushing defeats what's asb about those defeats becoming victories. Bulgaria is in a civil war. Ok. So the Romans almost succeeded but due to Ineptitude failed I fail to see this as ASB. it I'd plausable for Ivanylo to be defeated plz tell me otherwise why the Romans can't win:rolleyes:

Downhill this tl is not going. Serbia at this time was weak, competant Byzantine leadership should bring it into byzantine control.
Charles is defeated at Morea what do you not get. Charles invades he gets beatean. His son succeeds to the throne, at that time achae falls to John. This is not ASB.
Athens.. Otl that battle had fought with 20k Byzantines against 500 latins vert ASB victory indeed:rolleyes: could have never gone the other way.
Srry elfwine but you have a very closed
mind I mean cmon why is it ASB plz elaborate on how Romans can't take Bulgaria in internal turmoil. Or how Athens would not fall, the tl does not go downhill plz clarify your arguments:rolleyes:
 
Jeez... Ok in this tl Michael wins against Ivan. Otl the Byzantines suffered crushing defeats what's asb about those defeats becoming victories. Bulgaria is in a civil war. Ok. So the Romans almost succeeded but due to Ineptitude failed I fail to see this as ASB. it I'd plausable for Ivanylo to be defeated plz tell me otherwise why the Romans can't win:rolleyes:

Its not that its necessarily ASBs, but HOW do the Byzantines win? At the very least, you need better generals - from somewhere. And if this timeline is based on the idea that competent men are in the place of all of OTL's incompetents or not-good-enoughs, I call wank. But see below for more.

Downhill this tl is not going. Serbia at this time was weak, competant Byzantine leadership should bring it into byzantine control.
And you think Byzantium at this time isn't? Michael does not have the opportunity to take the whole of his army to focus on curbstomping Serbia.

I don't know off the top of my head how weak Serbia is, but conquering it in a year would be no mean feat.

Charles is defeated at Morea what do you not get. Charles invades he gets beatean. His son succeeds to the throne, at that time achae falls to John. This is not ASB.
Just really difficult. Charles has a larger, better army, and is apparently a competent general.

Athens.. Otl that battle had fought with 20k Byzantines against 500 latins vert ASB victory indeed:rolleyes: could have never gone the other way.
This is one of the areas it could definitely go the other way with the right events - hell I can think of a way to write that so it does - but its going to be easier said than done to achieve total victory here. But it is, yes, one of the areas triumph could come where it didn't OTL.

Srry elfwine but you have a very closed
mind
Leave my views on sex, drugs, and rock and roll out of this. :D

I mean cmon why is it ASB plz elaborate on how Romans can't take Bulgaria in internal turmoil. Or how Athens would not fall, the tl does not go downhill plz clarify your arguments:rolleyes:
Briefly, again, you are ignoring how weak Michael's position is. Somehow Michael has to be able to quickly crush Bulgaria, then Serbia, then Charles, then anyone else who tries to cause trouble. And pay for all of this.

Michael is in many ways lucky to have accomplished what he did OTL. You're asking for an unbroken chain of victories so far, and very swift and decisive ones at that, all without anyone else causing trouble anywhere.

Start small. There is room to improve on what happened OTL. But you really need to approach this step by step and carefully weigh how a given thing can be done with the very limited resources available without having great commitments to one place - say Bulgaria - greatly undermining the empire somewhere else.

If you want Michael and his successors to rebuild the empire, that's doable. If you want him to catapult it back to its former glory by the end of his life, or even the end of the century, that's pushing it. Any given battle or even campaign, not necessarily. Its the whole thing.

There are neither the men or the money to do epic conquests. This is impossible to ignore if you want this timeline to work instead of being targeted by me, BG, and anyone else who cares enough to comment.

After I do some brief refresher reading, I can post a possible success for John in a bit. This ought to give an idea on what I think is possible.
 
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Ine I'll explain in the next update how the Byzantines accomplish all of this ok elfwine.

The decisions of a decidedly partial Providence would be necessary for all of this to go that well.

But on a positive note.

Let's take John's campaign.

Original text in quotes is from John Norwich. Text below in italics is the revised version.

"The following year, the Emperor's brother, the Despot John Palaeologus, besieged John the Bastard, in his castle at Neopatras; but the Bastard had been in tight corners before. One night he lowered himself by rope from the walls, and passed unsuspected through the Byzantine camp. Three days later he reached Thebes, whence, hurrying back with three hundred horsemen, he attacked the imperial army from behind. The despot tried hard to rally his men, but panic seized them and they fled."

The following year, the Emperor's brother, the Despot John Palaeologus, besieged John the Bastard, in his castle at Neopatras, Although the the Bastard had been in tight corners before, this time his luck had run out. One night he lowered himself by rope from the walls, and attempted to pass through the Byzantine camp. He was quickly caught and captured, and the news of his capture greatly demoralized the garrison, which surrendered shortly afterward.

This is the kind of tweak that can be made without much difficulty.

With that touch of luck for John (Palaeologus), he and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licario can campaign with more success than OTL. Charles being crushingly defeated...well, we have this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Berat_(1280–1281) but it was not enough. Barring something like the Sicilian Vespers (which cost Byzantium no small sum of gold) and Peter of Aragorn's invasion, he'll launch another invasion, as he was planning to.

Importantly:
According to Norwich on the issue of Church union: "(Michael) could not, he believed, have acted otherwise than as he did: union with Rome, by depriving the King of Sicily and the titular Latin Emperor, Philip of Courtenay - who had succeeded his father Baldwin in 1273 - of any moral justification for acting against it, had temporally saved the Greek Empire; it legitimized Michael's claim to Constantinople in the eyes of the West; it even eliminated papal opposition to his program for clearing the last few Latins from the Balkan peninsula."

My italics. Those are no small issue. Yes it did have a high cost, but if Michael doesn't at least attempt to go through with Church union, you weaken his position relative to that threat. What will he do to face it?

This is why you need to structure your explanations of how all of this hangs together with your posting of what the desired results are, so that you can answer these questions and work them into your writing rather than restart it every time something is defeated.
 
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